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maemo.org - Talk (https://talk.maemo.org/index.php)
-   Nokia N900 (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=44)
-   -   Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition? (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=35345)

maemojedi 2009-11-29 07:45
Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisLoh (Post 398661)
1. Cut the condescending tones, it's apparent even in this thread itself, it really puts new users off. (i.e. include a proper disclaimer e.g. THIS MAY BRICK YOUR DEVICE, rather than IF YOU DONT EVEN KNOW, ITS NOT FOR YOU).

2. We're talking about a community that is focused on catering to the needs of end users (i.e. that means spoon feeding, solutions), and I will tell you that majority of end users do not care about all the technicalities, jargons, programming; they wanna get the freaking job done. We have to consider that these end users comprise often not only geeky people. E.g. a businessman would probably visit this forum once a month to look for a guide on installing a particular app, do you really expect him to learn all the technicalities you throw at him?

3. We're not asking for talk.maemo (i.e. TALK.MAEMO MUST BECOME AN OPEN PLATFORM) to become that kind of community, but we're just saying that should such a community be absent, it would scare many non-geeks (i.e. the masses) off, hence the thread title.

4. Solutions include:

a. transform the community
b. point us to another forum where end users can find what they want

5. Should the solutions not be considered, Maemo will DEFINITELY lose a lot of potential customers (i.e. the NOOBS and the 4-YEAR OLDS). If you say these customers are not appreciated, I surrender. But I say theses customers are the exact engine of growth that Maemo needs.

6. Please be reminded that we're again not complaining about anything, we're making suggestions. If you think otherwise, perhaps you are really closed. The above are simply requests, not demands. It's ultimately the choice of the community.
Excellent post.

LouisLoh 2009-11-29 07:48
Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by elimoon8 (Post 398667)
I'm all for helping new users, but I respectfully disagree with that statement. I'm pretty sure the attitude here will remain the "search, then post" attitude. I really can't disagree with that attitude, though. Everyone here is looking for something different. If the volunteers here were to try to spoon-feed everyone, nothing would ever get done. Telling someone to look through a 15 page long thread may be tough on new users, but until we have a huge developer population that can deal with problems on an individual basis, we can't have developers spending too much time answering individual questions. A somewhat simplified how-to by a developer for an application should suffice (I think you mention this later in your post).
I can respect that, definitely, I understand the community has its quandaries too. But as I've said, the opportunity cost of not providing spoonfeeding is the loss of many non-geeky customers. It's the choice of the community, as mentioned earlier - either spoonfeed and allow user base to grow as rapidly as possible, even though each user may not be that independent (and I understand that this can be a burden for the community), or ensure that each and every user is responsible and thus putting off many new users, but in the exchange get a more cohesive community.

You need to choose between the two contesting demands, and decide which is important for you, growth in user base (which drove platforms like iPhone to its success today), or a more tightly-knit community that is slightly more exclusive with more barriers to entry.

Ultimately, your choice.

elimoon8 2009-11-29 07:49
Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davedickson (Post 398671)
What I've have been trying to say from my first post :D
Duly noted (I should have quoted your post when I wrote my post).
You can't expect a developer to post a how-to, though. It's their application/tweak, therefore they can distribute the information they way they want to/need to (it also depends on how much time they have in their lives, etc.). You can politely ask other users for a simple how-to (which I can see has been happening) while telling them explicitly that you understand all of the risks involved (which has not been happening).

LouisLoh 2009-11-29 07:49
Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayOnThaBeat (Post 398676)
Nope, I don't care. Why should I? Why does everyone who uses this board have to care about "catering" to everyone else? At my work, I have to cater to our clients / customers, because I am paid to do so.

I am not paid to care here. Did I miss the part of the sign-up process that said that I am subservient (sp?) to all other visitors?

I'm pretty sure there was no such clause, or I wouldn't have registered.

Early in this thread (this thread whose title in itself is b*tching about the board), I was legitimately trying to help, based on the information given. Here is a summary of my post:

Code:
<link>

This, maybe?
I was then attacked for being rude, and told re-read his post. I am a big proponent of living up to the labels given to me. I was labeled "rude", so I lived up to it. That's how I roll.

In closing, I do not represent Maemo. I defy anyone reading to find a board where everyone is happy and cheerful, and willing to take whatever bulls**t is handed to them. I started posting in a thread whose title insults the senior users of the board, who I have found very helpful.

So yeah, you can hate me, but you can't say that I'm wrong (unless you want to be wrong... then I'll say that you're wrong... but isn't that what threads titled "Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?." are for?)
Nobody's ASKING you to care. We just said, if you don't care, people are not going to stay. And this can jeopardise platform growth. The purpose of this thread is to inform you about this opportunity cost, nothing more nothing less.

Laughingstok 2009-11-29 07:50
Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 
Thaz how he rowls. Scraight up! :D

LouisLoh 2009-11-29 07:53
Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by elimoon8 (Post 398678)
Duly noted (I should have quoted your post when I wrote my post).
You can't expect a developer to post a how-to, though. It's their application/tweak, therefore they can distribute the information they way they want to/need to (it also depends on how much time they have in their lives, etc.). You can politely ask other users for a simple how-to (which I can see has been happening) while telling them explicitly that you understand all of the risks involved (which has not been happening).
Most end users will not care about the risks involved, it's a sad fact. So what do we do about it? That's more important IMO.

You can either

1. Expect the user to read up on everything
2. Provide the necessary details (i.e. spoonfeed)

Again, there's an opportunity cost incurred for either solution. And it's important you consider these costs seriously.

I'm not saying that it's the obligation of developers and the forum community to provide 'how-to's and disclaimers for each and every app and for each and every purpose. We're just suggesting that should such features be included, it would definitely be more end user friendly.

Not an obligation, your choice. Should developers be more proactive in sharing tips and how-to's with end users, end users benefit though we know it can be more taxing for the developers. With this fundamental understanding, we are not DEMANDING for anything, just HOPING for the better.

elimoon8 2009-11-29 07:58
Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisLoh (Post 398677)
But as I've said, the opportunity cost of not providing spoonfeeding is the loss of many non-geeky customers. It's the choice of the community, as mentioned earlier - either spoonfeed and allow user base to grow as rapidly as possible, even though each user may not be that independent (and I understand that this can be a burden for the community), or ensure that each and every user is responsible and thus putting off many new users, but in the exchange get a more cohesive community.

....

Ultimately, your choice.
Unfortunately, it's not ultimately my choice. It's the independent choice of every developer and every user here. I would love to help new users but 1) I don't own an n900 2) I have no idea how to develop/code in the slightest (even though reading the forums has helped with understanding more than I used to know). To slightly repeat what I said earlier in another way: I don't think the community can withstand the burden of spoon feeding right now. It might grow the user base, but the noise generated would cause those people we need most to completely ignore the threads and therefore stop any help from reaching users at all.

davedickson 2009-11-29 08:00
Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayOnThaBeat (Post 398676)
I was then attacked for being rude, and told re-read his post. I am a big proponent of living up to the labels given to me. I was labeled "rude", so I lived up to it. That's how I roll.

In closing, I do not represent Maemo. I defy anyone reading to find a board where everyone is happy and cheerful, and willing to take whatever bulls**t is handed to them. I started posting in a thread whose title insults the senior users of the board, who I have found very helpful.

So yeah, you can hate me, but you can't say that I'm wrong (unless you want to be wrong... then I'll say that you're wrong... but isn't that what threads titled "Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?." are for?)
I wrote that I agreed with the senior guys on this matter, that new people need to learn first before blindly asking, I suggested that devs put a detailed guide attached with their app so people like me don't have to hassle them for information. THAT WAS MY POST IN A NUT SHELL.

You then thought I didn't know how to install easy debian, how the hell do you get that from that post??????? You then sarcastically suggested "This maybe?", next time if you don't want people to think you are being rude try, "maybe this will help" no confusion then, is there?

Yeah you don't represent Maemo, thank god for that! I'd be cancelling right now if you did!

But YOUR POST'S ARE READ BY EVERYONE SO KEEP THEM RESPECTFUL!

We ALL represent the community on here, first timers WILL SEE OUR COMMENTS TO EACH OTHER, remember that before "you wanna crush people like bugs" - what a big guy you are ;)

LouisLoh 2009-11-29 08:00
Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayOnThaBeat (Post 398685)
You yourself said the purpose of tmo was to "cater" to people, as if the people with knowledge are the "butlers" for the uninformed.

I believe the purpose of the board is to primarily develop for the platform, brainstorm, and fix bugs in the system / software. Informing others is secondary.

Again, anything I say shouldn't matter, because I am not one of those in the know, but you're basically saying that those in the know have to be everyone's b*tch, or the platform will fail.

Doesn't the platform have a major corporation behind it?
1. I didn't say TMO has to be that platform (of spoonfeeding)

2. I said either TMO can transform into that platform, or simply point us to another forum where such platforms can flourish.

3. If that's the belief of every board member, then, again, I would respect that and kindly ask for another forum that caters to end users

4. I'm not saying that Maemo will fail. It can still continue to thrive in its own old ways, but not in the mass market IMO, should such a community fails to exist.

maemojedi 2009-11-29 08:04
Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayOnThaBeat (Post 398685)

I believe the purpose of the board is to primarily develop for the platform, brainstorm, and fix bugs in the system / software. Informing others is secondary.

Again, anything I say shouldn't matter, because I am not one of those in the know, but you're basically saying that those in the know have to be everyone's b*tch, or the platform will fail.

Doesn't the platform have a major corporation behind it?
Ok it's clear that this guy is really missing the point. The position has been explained too many times for him to come back and flip the script by saying new members need the more experienced to turn b*tch.

Personally I refuse to converse with someone with such a loose grasp of the facts. No disrespect but this guy is going too far imho


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