Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Firstly nice attitude.... just read your comment about the tags too....you were a noob once!

I KNOW how to install it, what is the matter with you????? NOT THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE!

I can't even be bothered, you are obvisously not listening.

Good community attitude as well, no wonder new guys are getting pi**ed off with people on here, no respect for anyone.

I wanted to discuss something that I thought might help the people on here and free up the threads a bit, but it seems like I can't even do that without someone being rude????

Good luck guys, honestly, I just wanted to give back, won't bother next time.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

I think we're gonna need some Troll Model signature rules... :rolleyes:

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Oh, he's a free agent alright. I sure don't claim him.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

You KNOW how to install it. Have you added your knowledge to the wiki yet?

If you haven't, why do you expect others to do it for you? Lead by example :eek:

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

I plan to, don't have the phone yet. Wanted to do a REALLY basic walkthrough with pretty pictures and everything. :D

Forgot to add - any problems/issues I have while doing etc will go in there too.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Quick input:
The community has become somewhat more careful with the release of the n900. I remember when I bought my n810, I found instructions to get into red pill mode rather quickly (I think I did a search, rather than asking, though). I also found a site with very kind people putting up the basics of the tablet (http://tabletschool.blogspot.com ). Is there anything like this for the n900?

Threads also used to just mention that the poster was not responsible for the contents of the post (and a detailed how-to followed). I think the mindset is now people more unfamiliar with linux have joined this forum. This may be true, I think this mindset should not be kept. It should be assumed that everyone here is aware of the risks involved, including loss of data and complete bricking of the device. These warnings should also be posted at the start of any announcement of an extra-devel app or a how-to (maybe we could create a standard opening statement). Users should also be warned that they may not get the exact help they need if they have bricked their tablet (since it is sometimes very difficult to help someone "unbrick" their tablet, even when knowing what the problem is).

Example:
THIS APPLICATION/HOW-TO IS FOR ADVANCED USERS ONLY.
FOLLOWING THESE DIRECTIONS MAY LEAD TO LOSS OF DATA SUCH AS PHONE NUMBERS AND/OR BRICKING YOUR DEVICE.
THE ORIGINAL POSTER AND OTHER FORUM MEMBERS ARE NOT REQUIRED TO OFFER SUPPORT IN ANY CASE.
ANY PROBLEMS RESULTING FROM THIS APPLICATION/HOW-TO WILL BE THE SOLE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE OWNER OF THE DEVICE.
IF YOU ARE RUNNING LOW ON "MAIN" MEMORY, YOU RISK BRICKING YOUR DEVICE PERMANENTLY. PLEASE BE AWARE HOW MUCH MAIN MEMORY YOU HAVE LEFT.
IF YOU NEED TO REFLASH YOUR DEVICE (REMOVING ALL DATA AND RESTORING IT TO THE ORIGINAL CONDITION, IN MOST CASES), GO HERE (linked to a flashing instructions page).

All of that should be red and in all capitals.

Other than that, the instructions for this forum are really simple:
1) Search
2) If no one has made what you want to do somewhat easier, start a thread politely asking for instructions.
3) Understand that everyone here has a life. A life that they spend at least part of away from the computer, and a life filled with responsibilities completely unrelated to the tablets and technology in general. If you ask a question and it does not get answered, don't immediately bump it up to get answered. Perhaps wait a couple of days and choose a time where more people will see it.
4) If people tell you it's "too advanced", explain to them that you completely understand the risk of bricking your device permanently and would like them to explain anyway, as simply as they could, with all responsibility being yours. If one person won't, I'm sure someone will, as long as you keep reiterating that *you* are the only one responsible for your device.
5) Realize that if you brick your device, you may not be able to find anyone with a similar experience or enough information to help you.
6) NEVER ask for illegal things (such as ROMs). Period. Ask only questions about applications and other such things.
7) If no one is willing to help you, move on or (better yet) learn linux and how to code and do what you want to. The community needs more application developers, who are people just like you that spent the time and energy to learn.

Hope this helps. :)

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

1. Cut the condescending tones, it's apparent even in this thread itself, it really puts new users off. (i.e. include a proper disclaimer e.g. THIS MAY BRICK YOUR DEVICE, rather than IF YOU DONT EVEN KNOW, ITS NOT FOR YOU).

2. We're talking about a community that is focused on catering to the needs of end users (i.e. that means spoon feeding, solutions), and I will tell you that majority of end users do not care about all the technicalities, jargons, programming; they wanna get the freaking job done. We have to consider that these end users comprise often not only geeky people. E.g. a businessman would probably visit this forum once a month to look for a guide on installing a particular app, do you really expect him to learn all the technicalities you throw at him?

3. We're not asking for talk.maemo (i.e. TALK.MAEMO MUST BECOME AN OPEN PLATFORM) to become that kind of community, but we're just saying that should such a community be absent, it would scare many non-geeks (i.e. the masses) off, hence the thread title.

4. Solutions include:

a. transform the community
b. point us to another forum where end users can find what they want

5. Should the solutions not be considered, Maemo will DEFINITELY lose a lot of potential customers (i.e. the NOOBS and the 4-YEAR OLDS). If you say these customers are not appreciated, I surrender. But I say theses customers are the exact engine of growth that Maemo needs.

6. Please be reminded that we're again not complaining about anything, we're making suggestions. If you think otherwise, perhaps you are really closed. The above are simply requests, not demands. It's ultimately the choice of the community.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

heh. oh, and I lied. That wasn't quick at all. :p

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

I'm all for helping new users, but I respectfully disagree with that statement. I'm pretty sure the attitude here will remain the "search, then post" attitude. I really can't disagree with that attitude, though. Everyone here is looking for something different. If the volunteers here were to try to spoon-feed everyone, nothing would ever get done. Telling someone to look through a 15 page long thread may be tough on new users, but until we have a huge developer population that can deal with problems on an individual basis, we can't have developers spending too much time answering individual questions. A somewhat simplified how-to by a developer for an application should suffice (I think you mention this later in your post).

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

What I've have been trying to say from my first post :D

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Excellent post.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

I can respect that, definitely, I understand the community has its quandaries too. But as I've said, the opportunity cost of not providing spoonfeeding is the loss of many non-geeky customers. It's the choice of the community, as mentioned earlier - either spoonfeed and allow user base to grow as rapidly as possible, even though each user may not be that independent (and I understand that this can be a burden for the community), or ensure that each and every user is responsible and thus putting off many new users, but in the exchange get a more cohesive community.

You need to choose between the two contesting demands, and decide which is important for you, growth in user base (which drove platforms like iPhone to its success today), or a more tightly-knit community that is slightly more exclusive with more barriers to entry.

Ultimately, your choice.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Duly noted (I should have quoted your post when I wrote my post).
You can't expect a developer to post a how-to, though. It's their application/tweak, therefore they can distribute the information they way they want to/need to (it also depends on how much time they have in their lives, etc.). You can politely ask other users for a simple how-to (which I can see has been happening) while telling them explicitly that you understand all of the risks involved (which has not been happening).

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Nobody's ASKING you to care. We just said, if you don't care, people are not going to stay. And this can jeopardise platform growth. The purpose of this thread is to inform you about this opportunity cost, nothing more nothing less.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Thaz how he rowls. Scraight up! :D

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Most end users will not care about the risks involved, it's a sad fact. So what do we do about it? That's more important IMO.

You can either

1. Expect the user to read up on everything
2. Provide the necessary details (i.e. spoonfeed)

Again, there's an opportunity cost incurred for either solution. And it's important you consider these costs seriously.

I'm not saying that it's the obligation of developers and the forum community to provide 'how-to's and disclaimers for each and every app and for each and every purpose. We're just suggesting that should such features be included, it would definitely be more end user friendly.

Not an obligation, your choice. Should developers be more proactive in sharing tips and how-to's with end users, end users benefit though we know it can be more taxing for the developers. With this fundamental understanding, we are not DEMANDING for anything, just HOPING for the better.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Unfortunately, it's not ultimately my choice. It's the independent choice of every developer and every user here. I would love to help new users but 1) I don't own an n900 2) I have no idea how to develop/code in the slightest (even though reading the forums has helped with understanding more than I used to know). To slightly repeat what I said earlier in another way: I don't think the community can withstand the burden of spoon feeding right now. It might grow the user base, but the noise generated would cause those people we need most to completely ignore the threads and therefore stop any help from reaching users at all.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

I wrote that I agreed with the senior guys on this matter, that new people need to learn first before blindly asking, I suggested that devs put a detailed guide attached with their app so people like me don't have to hassle them for information. THAT WAS MY POST IN A NUT SHELL.

You then thought I didn't know how to install easy debian, how the hell do you get that from that post??????? You then sarcastically suggested "This maybe?", next time if you don't want people to think you are being rude try, "maybe this will help" no confusion then, is there?

Yeah you don't represent Maemo, thank god for that! I'd be cancelling right now if you did!

But YOUR POST'S ARE READ BY EVERYONE SO KEEP THEM RESPECTFUL!

We ALL represent the community on here, first timers WILL SEE OUR COMMENTS TO EACH OTHER, remember that before "you wanna crush people like bugs" - what a big guy you are ;)

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

1. I didn't say TMO has to be that platform (of spoonfeeding)

2. I said either TMO can transform into that platform, or simply point us to another forum where such platforms can flourish.

3. If that's the belief of every board member, then, again, I would respect that and kindly ask for another forum that caters to end users

4. I'm not saying that Maemo will fail. It can still continue to thrive in its own old ways, but not in the mass market IMO, should such a community fails to exist.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Ok it's clear that this guy is really missing the point. The position has been explained too many times for him to come back and flip the script by saying new members need the more experienced to turn b*tch.

Personally I refuse to converse with someone with such a loose grasp of the facts. No disrespect but this guy is going too far imho

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

You are walking through the woods. You are very thirsty.

You approach a man, a stranger. You tell him "I am so very thirsty."

You continue to walk, he joins you. You approach a river. The embankment is too steep to reach the water.

You ask, "How can I get some water??"

The stranger pulls a ladle from his satchel.

"This, maybe?" he asks.

You punch him in the face.


------


Is that about right?

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Jay, please calm down. I know you don't have to, but it would help the situation a little bit. I think the main confusion came from the "rude" label. I can see how your post could be misconstrued as being sarcastic. If that was not your intent, please make it clear that you did not mean to be sarcastic. I support your point of view, and I know there is a calm (non-subservient) way to resolve this situation.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

I realise that and I am grateful for all the work they put in. My idea was actually aimed at helping them rather than me.

If they posted a techy guide (doesn't have to be long) people like me that need a bit more infomation than the power users but less than new users, could then create the walkthroughs (for brand new users) for them.

As someone who is new to linux, a step-by-step with screenshots etc would be so useful. I want to make those from the techy guide so the devs don't get everyone asking them questions all the time, they could just follow it click by click, and thats it done. No threads no questions = more time for devs lives :D

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

"This, maybe?"

I don't see how that can be construed as rude. If anything, it shows my unsureness of my answer being the correct one.

|||EDIT
#114 above says it all.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

elimoon8, yes, I understand that it's the independent decision of individual developers, but should one of them take the initiative, I'm sure it would be well-received by the end user, and hopefully others can follow suit.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

I think in the past, what you are describing has occurred several times. A developer has posted a complex guide, and a new-ish user has made it into a simple one (I think this happened with the Tear browser, for one example). I think the main problem in that respect is that right now the developers are considered their applications too buggy to release. In the past, the process you are describing usually happened after an application had developed a little and all the main bugs had been removed, bringing the application to a "everyday use" condition.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

aha. I can see that now. Before, I wasn't able to see how you were using that "maybe".

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

I understand what you mean, and in the past this has been a pretty typical practice (posting a how-to). Going back to my post (#120 - wow) I think right now developers are themselves unsure of the stability of their applications. After a little more development, I'm sure they (or someone else with the knowledge) will post a thorough guide on how to get the application working. It's just a matter of time.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Well I construed it as rude.

And your subsequent posts, say it all, don't they.

Oh, I am sorry please don't think that statement was rude at all.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Well, thanks for your comments. I do see what you mean, problem is you don't need a guide once they go into extras LOL I love the one click install by the way! :D

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Honestly, only Nokia has to care about noobs that don't bother or know how to help themselves. If community members, and there are plenty of us, decide to help the lazy and/or rude, good for both parties. But generally, tech communities aren't looking to foster the lazy, the rude and the stupid. And none of us here are delusional enough to think the success or failure of these devices depends on how we respond to transients. Either the hardware and software are good enough or they're not. If not, we b*tch about the hardware, and we try to fix the software. That's it! The rest should just be good, clean, noisey fun. Well... Okay... Sometimes it can be bad and dirty. But I'm not budging on the fun part.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

I suggest that all new users attempt this before installing anything from extras-devel:

Go to your local McDonalds and order a burger. When it has just been placed on the grill and is still raw, demand that you be served it at once. You will be refused. Try your rant about the customer being right (in this case a paying customer) and it will get you nowhere. This is not because the spotty kid flipping burgers is elitist or superior (though he probably has a basic certificate in food hygiene). It's because there's a fairly high risk of food poisoning from eating raw burgers, and he doesn't want to lose his job when McDonalds are closed by the environmental health department. Your burger isn't ready yet.

There are rules and restrictions placed on us all the time which vary according to our capacity and qualifications. In one of the buildings I work in I hold a key to every room in the building except one. Not because the keyholders are superior or elitist, but because I lack the necessary skills to use what's in there safely. I can't buy arsenic, cyanide or more than a handful of paracetemol - is my pharmacist being elitist?

The developers here are, to put it mildly, extremely busy. This is a new device, and while some of them got a few weeks' march on it, they have spent that time bringing somewhere in the reason of 70 apps to a point where they are deemed entirely safe for everyone. That has been their focus, not writing FAQs, wikis, or holding the hand of people who have bricked their device foolishly. For those who've had problems through no fault of their own, the community have been here.

I hear so much impatience in the posts here. How long have you had the device? Less than a week? But the app you want must be available now, the wiki must be already written (by whom?) the FAQ must be full of pretty screen shots... most of the people who will do those things haven't even got their devices yet.

To the suggestion that the community must either provide End User Support or point people to somewhere that does - no the community is under no obligation to do either. It does what it does entirely from goodwill. You have a user manual from Nokia - the manuacturers consider that to be all the information you should ever need.

Rather than ranting that the app you want is still cooking, how about thanking the person who voluntarily in his/her own free time has started created it, and hopefully intends finishing it? How about volunteering, if you feel able, to be involved in the process - offer to test it! The developers are delighted to have good testers who can provide high quality feedback on the bugs in apps still in testing. Though be aware that the feedback process is highly technical.

Under all this I hear a profound sense of Entitlement. You have paid for the device, for a guarantee from Nokia, and a user manual. And that is what you have received. You have paid nothing to the community, and they owe you exactly nothing. You have no 'entitlement' to free apps before they are ready for publication: what if the dev intends to sell this when it's finished? Are you willing to pay for having it early?

Is it good to see people with technical knowlegde help out new End Users? Yes, of course it is. It is also good to see new End Users treat people who have technical knowledge with the respect due to that knowledge, especially when they're willing to follow the advice they're given even if it's not what they want to hear.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Let's re-read your original post that I have quoted in it's entirety shall we?

In it you say:

You did not post any links to help understand this. :confused:

You go on to say your were contacted by a "mystery" member of maemo.org in another fora...

This "mystery member" posting outside this forum, apparently told you the reason and the purpose of maemo.org.

You then go on to post an unquoted bit about "the revenge of the nerds" that is apparently conjecture.

You go on further and use the example of "how to get a maemo/unique animation for the boot screen" and because no one has written a WiKi or has given you a step by step instruction on how to do this you wonder:

... and then go on to post (without supporting links I might add):

You finally come to the conclusion that:

If I left out any relevant information please refer to the complete text that I quoted in its entirety at the beginning of this post. :)

Others have come to your defense which I think is admirable and has more to do with the "future" of maemo.org.

Others have not agreed with you and I think that has nothing to do with the "future" of maemo.org but more to do with the logic you used to support your conclusion. :)

In my posts I have tried to show that I think your logic is faulty. I think your conclusion is wrong because of that. I admit I am guilty of not providing supporting links as well.

To that all I have is this:

>> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=4527

and then this:

>> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=14059

To show how veteran members treated at least one "newbie" with a unique problem. :)

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

That's hilarious on so many levels when you were straight up making stuff up earlier in the thread, but whatever.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

This thread has reduced to a pissing contest. Please refactor.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

=====D~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I've pissed the furthest so far!

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Yeah thanks for your input :rolleyes:... I just posted what I believe was a long thought out reply and you responded with a one line general statement about the quality of the thread.

If you did not mean my recent post then... Why do you do this with out linking or quoting the posts you mean?

Just wondering out loud. No need to respond. :)

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Relax YoDude. I wasn't referring to any of the welcome wisdom that you or anyone else has posted here-- but rather the pissing contests that persist despite it. It was a general assessment and I didn't think there would be a need to point to exceptions. They're self-obvious.

You can easily see I've Thanked your contributions.

It isn't all about You, Dude.

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

If I'm pissing in the wrong place, please can I blame it on my age and hormones?

Re: Is Maemo.org The N900's Real Competition?
 

Yup, I was just wondering why not ^that explanation in the first place... that's all.

I was trying to understand how to "refactor" :confused:

BTW, when following my links you will see that they are all about me and my experience with this forum. :p

I didn't know if this is what needed refactoring.

Your follow up explanation was much clearer, Thank you. :)

Added:

It was your insightful post right before mine that sparked me to reflect on my own experiences. :)

BTW, I can no longer piss the longest. I'm more of a sprinter now. :D