Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Well written.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Go to BMW mate - my M5 is awesome.;)

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Text?!? Web! I'm reading this post at 81 mph on I-78 AMG rules! narf!

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

A big, big problem with fatalsaint's logic:

It's a very slippery slope with a huge hole in it.

The reasoning employed could be used to undermine a significant number of laws that do a great deal of good yet require significant due process to prosecute. Murder is one. Since murder can be difficult to prove, and often requires subpoenas of evidence and witnesses, should we then absolve laws against it? Most cops never witness the actual crime.

Think carefully on this, folks.

The post above can be punctured quite easily, actually. The officer spies the person texting, pulls them over, and tickets them. If the driver decides to fight, they go to court as is their right. It is then incumbent upon the state to provide the proof (ie, phone records) and if that does not happen then the defendent wins.

But it doesn't stop there.

As is human nature, either way the indignant defendant will protest to anyone who will listen (and one determined to fight a ticket will naturally do so). Anyone doomed to listen to the story will then realize that yes indeed the police will hand out such tickets, and each individual must then weigh the merits of the risk. I daresay most will think twice going forward.

So never underestimate the propaganda component. In cases like this it actually tends to work against the propagandist.

;)

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Except in Canada. I got pulled over for speeding once and took the cop to court. Lack of evidence the judge sustained the charge saying that why would a cop testify falsely?

There is too much power and discretionary power police have (in Canada).

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

I feel that the laws against texting while driving already existed.. under reckless driving.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

There's a difference... when a dead body shows up people are more inclined to go all they way through the process and spend the money to try and track down who and why.

If I receive a phone call, look at my phone (while driving), decide to ignore it and push the hang-up button, a cop saw me look down (hell, we'll even say he saw me look at my phone), and pulls me over...

We just spent a whole lot of money and time fighting in courts that should not have happened. You could be doing any number of a million legal things in your car that require your attention for a second ... the cops have *no* idea what you're really doing.

Really.. laws like this do nothing but allow cops to pull you over for anything. They don't even need a reason anymore.. "Well.. I thought I saw him texting."

I realize youre moving extremes just as we did.. but the massive gap is that nobody is going to want to go through that mess (defendant and cop included) over someone that *might* have been texting. Everyone wants to go through it if someone *might* have killed someone.

I do agree tho.. that using my logic could lose ground on a great number of laws... and personally I think a great number of laws *should* be losing ground.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

This is fine... then why did we need to make even more? and more? and make it more a convoluted mess with more loopholes than already exist??

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Because politicians act on the swing. X event happens, politicans create Y law for X event. Insert a "protecting the children" reason somewhere in there and then that law will be even more likely to pass.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

And this, in a nutshell, is precisely what I dislike about all this.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

I tend to agree with you on this one. People should use more common sense and moral thinking than relying on bloated laws that only exist to prevent the next kid getting killed while doing 50 over the speed limit.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

I agree in principle with Laughing Man but add the caveat that "reckless driving" in and of itself is very vague and apparently difficult to prosecute. I know of dozens and dozens of people who have received tickets for all sorts of quantifiable reasons and not one who has received a reckless driving ticket-- despite knowing many who deserve it.

Texting is, however, easily quantifiable. Yes, I'll grant you the prosecutorial hurdles... but if representatives of the law decide they need an example or two, well...

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

I know quite a few people that have received a reckless driving ticket. Whether they deserved it or not is up for question.. most of the time it had to do with speed though. If you drive more than X over the speed limit it's a reck-driving ticket and not a speeding ticket.

And this.. entire idea.. just scares the hell out of me. "Making Examples" of people just leads to bad juju.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Actually.. wait... as I just re-read your thing Tex: You start by saying, "I agree in principal, but it's hard to prosecute." And then end with, "I agree prosecuting sucks, but.." (paraphrased)

So... both the law you think is inefficient, AND the law you're supporting.. have the same flaw? Help me out here..

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

And yet, if you pare our justice system down, you'll find that concept is the real core. ;)

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

That isn't what I said. Read again please. :p

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

And with this.. we are at an impasse. I have no further argument as we have ended at the same agreement...

It's just - you appear to accept this reality, and I abhor it. This is not the way things should be done. Do I have a better way? No, not really... Just with how much of an epic fail this one is.. I know there has to be one.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Hrm.. I guess I'm missing something. I'm certainly not saying you presented it wrong - but I'm not seeing it. Since paraphrasing didnt work.. your exact quotes:

"reckless driving" in and of itself is very vague and apparently difficult to prosecute. "

Followed immediately by..

"Yes, I'll grant you the prosecutorial hurdles..."

These two statements sound very much like a "TomAto, TomOto" phrase. The only clarification you add is that you think Texting is more quantifiable than Reckless Driving... but if we were to break every possible way for someone to swerve in their car incorrectly and make laws against it... well..

I think even you would agree thats a bit silly. How long before "changing radio stations" becomes illegal? And yes, this has killed kids.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

I fell into this reality where no perfect solution exists for anything-- just some solutions that are less imperfect than others.

Social animals will always find themselves in the middle of this Push-me-pull-you reality and the best we can do is use our whips/voices/votes to drive away from greater evil and toward greater good. It's a constant struggle, and the rules change beneath our feet.

Which just exposes the greatest irony of all, in that many individuals want their individual liberties protected-- by, of all things, a society that tends to gleefully [and stupidly] cede its collective liberties for the perception of security.

Least worst solution: move to desert island.

:D

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

I wish I could.

But I'm the the freedom-loving crazy gun-nut that owns an AR-15 and stockpiles food waiting for the Zombie-pacalypse that the government tried to reclassify as "terrorist" with that Homeland security document.

So I'm probably a bad example...

As for your acceptance of no perfect solution, it really disappoints me Tex. Just because we can agree no perfect solution exists (there will always be the Human factor)... that shouldn't mean we cease to try and "better" the ineffectual solution in place. There just.. isn't really a "brainstorm" for real life that politicians really care about. The brainstorm in the real life is a politician putting up a solution - and then bribing or lying to everyone to give them a thumbs up till it passes.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Just what in the name of all that is good makes you think I don't try?

Acknowledgment <> acceptance. Different <> wrong. ;)

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

If I could have made it any clearer that I am an advocate for personal responsibility, I'm unclear how ;)

If you're capable of doing all that, continue to do so. Your multitasking gift will enable you to avoid accidents, and all will be well :)

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

You're right.. skim reading fail. I blame work. I missed your middle part:

We are in agreement here. It's just unfortunate we appear to be on opposite sides of the push-me-pull-you arena :).

Well done though Tex, I commend you on your posts so far. Unfortunately I have to respectfully disagree with your Texting while Driving arguments ;).

As everyone can see, I am thanking Texrat's posts. Not necessarily because I agree with him... but having an intellectual debate with someone that doesn't get emotional and flame someone else for disagreeing is very refreshing and good for the soul IMHO. While Tex and I disagree, I can accept he has valid points and contributes a great deal to his side of the argument.

I wish this kind of debate could be had regarding the almighty N900 without the threads degrading into dribble. I'm just saying...

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

lol... do you remember when you first joined, fatalsaint? As I recall we locked horns right off. :D

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Texting/Surfing/Handhelds while driving are already against the law in some jurisdictions. In the province of Ontario, we went handsfree in automobiles Oct 26, 2009.

Society evolves - we are moving to a "just say no" atiitude towards handheld use in Ontario. I actually think it is for the better. I think twice, for instance, about calling my wife while I know she is driving.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

I'm more a fan of automating cars. Remove the many variables a human brings into driving (fatigue, skill, knowledge, experience, distraction, emotion, height, etc). Hey, once we automate cars then people can talk and text all they want.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Yes I do. The gun debate was one of my favorites as well (in any online forum I've ever participated in)...

The irony in that is... I may have posted one or two of those from my N810 while driving.... (many months ago everyone! it was legal back then :D)

:o

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Sorry, I missed this post, not meaning to ignore.

There's a continuity between my posts that maybe didn't come through. The point is about degree. You mentioned prosecutorial hurdles re texting; I'm acknowledging them. But such hurdles are not as high as prosecuting something as nebulous as reckless driving. Far more judgment in the latter... I didn't expect that I would have to explain that aspect.

As for bringing in our other bad driving habits-- again, texting poses an easily quantifiable and significantly higher potential for harm than fiddling with radio knobs or biting into a hamburger. And basic cell phone use is way up there too.

I don't have to rely solely on common sense to prove the point, either-- science is our friend here:

http://www.textually.org/textually/a.../03/019317.htm

The key problem here is in how the brain behaves. You barely detach when you turn a radio knob, yell at a kid or even puff on a cigarette-- but engage in a phone conversation, and it's a whole new ball game. Your brain disengages from the driving for too long a time, and creates a severe conflict for your visual processing.

Detractors are being highly disingenuous in disregarding the significance here.

Texting just takes this problem to a higher level. I'll be bluntly honest: it concerns me to no end that people defend doing that while operating a massive motor vehicle in motion.

Sorry, texting while driving is one of the absolute stupidest things a human can do and should certainly be illegal. And prosecutorial difficulty should not in and of itself be a barrier to implementation of reasonable laws.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

The problem with such prior restraint laws, is that they empower a particular psychological clique with a mechanism for imputing all manner of unprovable conjectures. They also make great shakedown rackets....errrr....I mean revenue generators ;)

However, in the event of an accident, if it can be proved that such activity occurred, then there is reasonable legal argument to suggest that this wasn't an 'innocent' accident, but one that involved willful negligence/recklessness.

No law can magically stop anything bad from happening.....but the realization of consequence can be a useful deterrent. Maybe some people wouldn't text while driving if you make it illegal. I would argue that far more would be dissuaded if they realized that their homes, belongings and economic future could be wiped out if they have so much as a fender bender while texting.

But I do agree with you that texting while driving is sociopathically stupid....with few exceptions for the gifted fighter pilots among us ;)

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Well.. even though I said you and I won't agree on the laws I'll continue for a bit.

First: I don't think Texting while driving is a good idea for the vast majority of people. I just don't think it should be a law to such.

For your argument about holding a conversation taking more brainpower than yelling at your child I disagree. Both require similar amount of cognition. Holding a conversation with the neighbor sitting next to me actually takes more of my thought than texting (there's a caveat explained below).. because I am focused on what they are saying, or what I'm yelling to my kids, or looking at my kids in the mirror instead of focused on the road.

The caveat is entirely with the keyboard of the device you use. I used to text-while-drive with nearly no problems at all (never any missed calls or swerving) with my Blackberry Pearl. I would read texts at stop lights, and responding while driving was easy as I used only 1 hand, and knew exactly where the keys where. Granted, not all my texts were sensible, but most of them came out fine and so did I.

Now I have the G1.. I texted while driving once with the G1. First I tried the big hardware keyboard and realized that wasn't going to work with one hand.. so then I tried the portrait keyboard where I can't feel the buttons.

I spent the majority of time driving and looking at my phone.. not the road. I'm not an idiot.. and even though I caused no accidents, I *did* have to correct my slight sway. I am no fool.. this no longer happens as I realize I can not do this safely with my G1. I could not do it safely with the N900. If I had the Palm Pre, however, the story might likely be different.

So IMHO, the risk of texting while driving increases and decreases with the type of phone you are using - and is heavily dependent on how responsible the person doing it is. However, a swerving vehicle is a swerving vehicle, no matter what the reason is. And this is where the "Reckless Driving" should be employed.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

The M5's are fine machines, indeed. But I'll stick to my CL65 AMG's.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

How is the cop expected to judge who's adept when he/she pulls someone over?

Should that even be his/her job? Or do they realize that, again, laws are not designed around the gifted few but rather due to the sloppy many?

Wrong, wrong, wrong. This isn't about brainpower per se, and certainly not about opinion fatalsaint-- exhaustive studies have proved the point and been verified time and time again by peers.

Please read the actual studies. The important finding here is that we don't engage visual processing for someone with us-- only when we speak to someone remotely. That finding is so fundamental here that it has to be given more consideration than a casual read-through. Remote conversations highly compete with the attention we need for driving. That's no longer up for debate-- the evidence is conclusive... and the conclusions scary.

I don't think the risk is worth it... hence my agreement with the laws and their (unfortunate) need.

Now, if I were king, I'd simply equip every phone with GPS that disabled conversations when motion was detected. Downside: geeks would circumvent this, die in accidents, and we would go an entire generation without programmers, air traffic controllers and science teachers. :p

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

I did go to your link, and the subsequent link to the University of Utah. The theme is the same... they test undistracted drivers, drunk drivers, and texting drivers.

To use your style:

Undistracted <> Yelling at Kids, turning radio knobs, talking to a neighbor.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

I'm frustrated by the fact that you're glossing over the key part here... but I'll only pound on a dead horse so long. Besides, not my mission to change your mind on anything. I have to reserve that energy for my stubborn kids. :D

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Experientially, I concur with Texrat. To me, it 'feels' like I'm engaging more of my brain in concentration when I'm talking on the phone while driving, rather than talking to a passenger.

However, this difference 'feels' less when I'm using a bluetooth headset....and even less when the phone is tethered via bluetooth to the car audio system (it feels just like an in-car conversation).

I think part of the difference is due to the crappy audio quality coming from the phone or headset....your brain is concentrating on interpreting the sound....whereas with the call coming through the audio system, it sounds clear and easily intelligible.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Ok So I looked closer. It appears the article isn't even about texting. It's about talking on the phone..

So your intent is not texting while driving... but completely removing all use of a cell phone while in a moving vehicle? It should be illegal to *talk* on the phone?

I can't read the *actual* study.. this silly site http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/jou...on#description wants me to pay for it or something. "Order Now".

I do enjoy our conversations.. but I'm not paying money to fully debate with you on here... as you've already won. It's already being illegalized because people prefer to be told what to do instead of deciding on their own in our society.

What I have not heard of was any mention of outlawing *talking* on the phone while driving. This would impact so many people as I doubt it would get passed.

Listening <> Texting. So you know you'll never get the real problem addressed and instead are attacking just a subsect of it? Come on, say it right! NO CALLS WHILE DRIVING!

Hell.. even most military bases say "Use of cellular devices not authorized except with hands-free device." They are more draconian than the public.

ETA: Also, here's an example of the test,

"Whether a sentence they heard.." it doesn't even mention phones there. Which evidently goes after what I'm saying.. it is just as distracting having a passenger as it is a phone. Even though it says a passenger *might* notice your busy.. i doubt most care.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Unfortunately I have not been able to find the study we discussed when I was working with Nokia-- it was not the same as the one referenced in my link today, and was specifically designed to show the difference between talking to a remote listener vs speaking to someone in the car.

If I find it, of course I'll link back.

Aside to fatalsaint: of course I realize that study was about talking... but texting is of course more prone to cause accidents than mere talking due to level of engagement.

As for my preferences, in general I don't like prior restraint laws. I accept some only very reluctantly and after it's been sufficiently demonstrated to me that they have become necessary. For example I think laws against open alcohol containers in cars are technically absurd... but in the end I can't argue against their obvious need.

I'd rather expend my energy fighting the truly intrusive and stupid laws, like ones that put marijuana smokers in prison. But to each their own.

FOUND IT! warning: slow site...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2...phone_risk.htm

Unfortunately that particular article doesn't get into what they found regarding speaking to parties over a cell phone vs speaking to someone in proximity, but as I recall the difference in visual engagement was profound.

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

That still refers to talking. So just explain to me: Are you supporting a Law to remove cell phones completely from cars?

It seems silly to me that if people believe that using a cell phone at all in a car increases the risk of an accident - why doesn't the law specify that? Why did they (most likely politicians) chicken out and single out texting only?

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Texrat:

http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/relea...ory.php?id=116

Please feel free to start the crusade in removing all Car-pool lanes, car-pool benefits, and driving of your children.

Thank you. ;)

Re: Use the N900 responsibly while driving
 

Again: I just not have found the specific text. But it exists. The study and its implications were a hot topic within Nokia's walls a few years ago.

And no, I don't support such an extreme law.

Who says politicians understand science? And as I've alluded, it's the easier target... and maybe a test case for future legislation. We frogs must be boiled slowly. ;)