Re: Overclock the N900?
 

n then overclock it to 900mhz... see how it disipates heat from each n every corner

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Back to original post.
I wonder who the 11 members are, who said it was impossible and will they put their hands up now :)

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Javispedro has some valid arguments I must admit :) Anyway, how long do you estimate overclocked N900 to work being moderately used?

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Come on boys, they're only making smoke, just because today is monday, and PR1.2 is still "coming soon"

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

everyone knows it decreases the lifespan of the phone. if ur worried abt urs, then plz do so.. the overclocking is NOT mandatory for everyone..

if U dnt understand who U and ULL are, ask someone.. IM NT ERE 2 TEACH U

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

What language was that?:rolleyes:

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

tht waz inglees

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

The poll is not from the original post, but from a thread merged by a moderator.

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Perhaps a better way would be to have two arrays of data (clock cycles and temperature). The point on the curve that has a significant spike (no longer linear) is the point most likely where the operational ceiling of the chipset is.

The Droid uses the 3430 chipset and most tests suggest that once you pass 1.1 ghz, the temps spike by up to ten degrees and apps begin to freeze. There are very few reports of issues at 900mhz to 1ghz and virtually no issues at 800mhz.

But as Flandry already mentioned, the design for heat dissipation is a caveat when comparing the Droid and N900.

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

The answer to that is way beyond anybody here. It would require a model of the CPU and take operating temperatures, material properties, and voltage as inputs.

What we do have is the manufacturer's specifications for a similar processor as quoted a couple pages back.

I think anyone considering overclocking/volting any device should read about electromigration. I learned about it in class but the wikipedia article is really pretty good. See in particular this section: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...7s_equation.29

Note the exponential dependence on temperature and the (approximately) inverse square dependence on current density. You can make rough estimates as to how much raising CPU operational temperature will accelerate the process, and maybe make a rough guess as to the relative effects at different operating voltages based on the manufacturer stated lifetimes, but (1) this is only one mode of failure (2) doesn't capture the exact defects of your particular device edit: and (3) you can't really get at accurate on-chip temperature information, anyway.

So in other words, any estimate here would be only of academic interest.

Two different issues though, really. There's the immediate ability of the chip to run at a given frequency/voltage, and the lifespan of the chip. Running at elevated frequency/voltage/temperature reduces the lifespan of the chip (approximately) with the inverse square of current and exponentially with temperature. It's not linear at all. So while there is a linear scaling for temperature within a given range of frequencies, there's an exponential decline in lifetime.

Anyway, as i said, it's mostly a point of academic interest and not really of much value to this thread because those who buy a new $600 phone every six months (shocking statistic there from Javier) don't care, and those who do care are just not going to go crazy with the overclocking. :D

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Flandry, you can not argue against real science and you type the truth. a key point:

"So while there is a linear scaling for temperature within a given range of frequencies, there's an exponential decline in lifetime."

That is my point from another perspective of it (in regards to a result) :) The point for which the temps spike significantly (five to ten degrees), is the operational ceiling and also the point for exponential / accelerated lifespan decline.

We are speaking the same thing, I am just trying to "hillbilly" it down a notch :) I am a hillbilly BTW :)

Added:

I do not think the N900 will have a profound lifespan issue at 800mhz as a max clock- based on Droid testing and me not noticing a temp increase or additional battery drain (compared to 600mhz). My guess is the 125mhz min is offsetting the battery, since my device spends more time idle than active.

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

So far the only convincing argument I have seen for NOT o/c the phone is Igor's statement because if you aren't prepared to believe a statement from a developer IN Nokia, then what single piece of written text on a screen would an end user who most likely hasn't got any direct contact with designing devices that make use of the processor believe?

However, one other thing still bugs me which has only really briefly been mentioned (but only in passing), if we can significantly reduce the lifetime of the processor by even simply running it at 550-600MHz all the time, then why when you connect the charger does it stop the scaling and keep the proc at the maximum 600MHz?

I don't know about anyone else but I charge my phone EVERY night and in normal usage realistically, twice a day..... that means my proc spends most of it's time at 600MHz (now 900MHz).....

This is the only thing that makes me feel it isn't so much of an issue otherwise when charging I would have thought perhaps they'd lock it to a lower frequency?

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Does anyone know if it's possible to check temperature of the n900 from some internal sensor?
I had mine oc'd to 900 and left it booting microxp in bochs, it was very hot when I returned so i've clocked it back down to 800 for now..

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

While I appreciate those who tried to highlight the dangers of overclocking, my opinion is most of those who had plunged in and OCed their N900, they have already understood the potential risk and consequences from doing so and should not blame anyone if s**t happens.

I understand the risk and willing to trade a shorter phone lifespan for a better user experience with the phone :)

I just hope this thread will continue to flourish with new ways to improve the performance instead of ending up a flame thread.

Just my 2 cents

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

BTW, do we have to manually set scaling_max_freq to 900000 if we are using 900MHz kernel in /etc/pmconfig? thanks.

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Just tested that on my N900 with the 125-900 oc kernel.
Got the result:
Nokia-N900-51-1:/# cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_available_frequencies
900000 550000 500000 250000 125000


According to #7116 the 125000 shouldn't be listed. I can't reproduce the error. Or am I missing something?

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

There is an official datasheet from TI (for omap3530 which is very similar to omap3430) with the information about the expected lifespan. Running the chip all the time at 600MHz vs. 500MHz already decreases lifespan twice, hence 600MHz is considered overdrive:
If this effect is exponential, then pushing the chip above 600MHz may reduce lifespan quite dramatically. I think that TI would sell chips labeled at 1GHz if they were sure that this clock frequency is safe, it is in their best interests after all, considering the tough competition.

Those who buy new smartphones each half a year may not care much, but I feel sorry for those who would buy a second hand N900, heavily worn out by some overclocker.

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

44,000 power on hours is 5 years. I'm OK with that.

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Good perspective. It would be cool if there was an actual, "functioning hours" to define the life. Point is the actual life of the device depends on actual usage. I use the N900 along with my phone, so the N900 is mainly a netbook and media player, though MAME and PSX are creeping in now....

If a person uses the N900 100% as their main device and use the "heck out of it", OC could be an issue. Then again, how much is the 125mhz difference in min clock helping to offset the increase? My feelings are that an 800mhz clocked 3430 with "normal" use for me will last about as long as the 600mhz clocked will (since my device spends nmore time idle than active).

Edit:

There IS an hours of use defined with the tech spec (duh) ;)

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

It's 5 years only if you never clock it higher that 600MHz (or 720MHz for the latest omap3530 revisions). If each extra 100MHz decrease lifespan twice, you can do the math about how long it will last running at clock speeds up to 900-1000MHz.

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

That was quoted a couple times and is indeed relevant, but just a quick point of correction: that's talking about operating voltages (OPP) rather than clock setting. They are connected, but don't necessarily have to be in the same way they are initially defined. Best case scenario for my purposes would be leave clocking more or less as-is and run at lower OPP for top scalings, if possible. That would increase battery life...

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

This is an interesting situation, and one thing that came into my mind is the advancement in fabrication processes. To put it simply - are the chips that we get in the year 2010 considerably better performing and cooler chips than the first TI OMAP3430 engineering samples?

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Based on the clock premise for life, the 125mhz less for idle will help to offset the life span- assuming operational ceiling is not compromised (> 1ghz?).

I use my N900 about three hours a day, but it is idle for the rest of the time. Since most of the day I am 125mhz less than the stock clock, this should (to some degree) offset the 800mhz factor that would not even be all of the three hours I use it.

Based on the current assumptions, I will only see about one third the life at 800mhz (if clocked there always for the three hours):

44,000 x .33 = 14,520 / 3 = 4,840 days or 13 years (even if I am off by a magnitude with the .33, it would still be years of service).

This does not consider the 50% less clock (125mhz) I save at idle, which is most of the time the phone is on.

Caveat of course is the operational ceiling of the chipset. Based on Droid, it is at some point after 1.1 ghz. Even if we assume the N900 has less efficient heat dissipation, 800mhz should be nowhere near this point.

Edit:

I did not apply the 125mhz idle time to the life, so actual life would be about 11 years- not 13 years with 125mhz-800mhz, vs 250mhz-600mhz.

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Oh man this got really out of hand. I bet nobody even reads the warnings about device wearing and other numerous problems that come with them.

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

I'm glad this is just a mobilecomputerphonethingie. If it dies then you get a new toy... imagine the day you overclock your n900 and the moment it starts melting the guy on tv is telling the world that we have approximately 84 minutes till the world is going to end. The choice is yours: Revert back and live at the safe zone like everyone else. Or take the smoothest 84 minutes ;)

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

That's not quite right, the device is actually in off mode most of the time (and not clocked at all), so it is neither running at 125MHz nor 250MHz. The lowest operating point helps to reduce battery drain when having some constant, but not CPU demanding activity like audio playback. So in reality 125MHz does not buy much.

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Lol, I guess you're right. You are a legend, but you probably have to find a good place to hide, as bunch of Nokia agents in black suits are now on their way to get you. :cool:

And all we wanted to know was just if N900 would be able to run Crysis. :D

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

True!

My main point is that during operational periods, the device is not always clocked to max :)

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

It's 5 years only, when the cpu runs at 600Mhz (or 720) _all the time_ when it's running. But as the n900 switches clock - the math to calculate the lifespan goes far beyond basics.

Simple as that: we cannot say for sure how many days/months/years the lifespan will degrade. Absolutely sure seems to be, that there is _some_ sort of degradation *sing* - but I guess no one of us (hardcore-gamers excepted - they should've bought a psp in the first place *g*) will see a dying cpu the next few years.

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Gosh, previously this thread is interesting and take many peoples minds off PR1.2 or makes the PR1.2 thread cooled down.
But now, I think, need PR1.2 to cool down this thread :P

Nonetheless, I believe there's always risk, but I notice something.
Having the clock speed at 600mhz max, the moment I go online, the clock speed hit 100% for quite some time, and it lags.
Seeing this situation, would OC actually helps and reduce the "load", and thus clocking less at max clock speed?
Example:
Let's say 600Mhz @ 10 seconds
When OC to 900Mhz, probably it only need to run for say 3~5 seconds?
Just a wild assumption.
If true, I think this actually helps rather than cause problems?

But on the other hand, if talking about running apps which constantly occupies high processing power. Thus, running @ 600Mhz VS @ 900Mhz for long period would be a different story.

Finally, I also wonder if one of the reason the limit of 600Mhz is also due to the reason of Battery? Since the N900 only comes with 1320mah battery and there's issue with how long can the battery last, possible that they try not to clock at higher speed so that the device is able to have longer operating hours per charge?
I think it could possibly be one reason?

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

It seems to be more complex than this. Based on the tables from the datasheet, the lifespan gets significantly shorter if CPU runs more than 1/4 of time at 600MHz. I guess in reality there are no such big jumps in lifespan when going from 1/4 to 1/3 600MHz percentage for example and the tables give only rough approximations (with a good safety margin), but still they show some overall picture.

Another interesting thing is that the expected lifespan is longer when running constantly at maximum 600MHz clock frequency, than jumping between different clock frequencies arbitrarily. Maybe it's somewhat similar to lightbulbs lifespan (they also fail faster if you turn them on/off frequently, than just having them permanently lighted).

But the point is still the same. If most of omap chips can run safely at very high clock frequencies, I guess TI would bin them and sell really lots of high speed chips, blasting the competition (snapdragons, etc.). This does not seem to be happening.

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Hehe,
PSP can be overclocked to 333Mhz too, and I believe many are doing that since it's available and playing non-stop for hours and over Wi-Fi too.

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Serge... do you own a N900?

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

can some one explain how the phone information stayed?

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

@ronaldo in the configuration menü > productinfo
put after the kernel patch this info meens version:<unknow>

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

mine is unknown but that user kept his info

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Yeah, the CPU heating up and then cooling down in cycles certainly puts some stress on it.

I thought it was clear from the beginning that people worrying about device lifetime should just steer clear of overclocking - and the rest have accepted the possibility of a catastrophic failure (assuming they even read the warnings). Oh well, at least there are now a couple of warnings more.

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

@Ronaldo
this is what i did

and the info in about is not unknown

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Engadget has added fuel to the fire with their maemo.org source

- Nokia N900 overclocked to 1GHz in bid to outrun obsolescence (video)
By Thomas Ricker posted Apr 5th 2010 at 4:22AM -

since when do we need to overclock our '900s to save them from obsolescence?

Re: Overclock the N900?
 

Its everybodys decision. Nothing more, nothing less. Im aware of the fact the OC can significantly reduce my N900s lifespan. This is not about getting out of hand. Dot!