Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

You don't read HowardForums, definitely. But if you read you may find a lot of people who exchange different ways how to unlock/unbrand their phones. Sometime works, sometime stupid but - this community does exist and very well known. And the reason for that is pretty same as Open Software movement.

BTW, the talk is not about you, the discussion is about ordinary N900 user - you try to keep HIM from destroying his FS, not you, right? I try to prove you that he has his own mind and he needs the listing of ALL applications. If he doesn't have it - HowardForum and other forums will be full of advices how to do it.

Red pill was actually hidden much better then rootsh and apt- packages. But it was a simple way to give to that kind of user a tool to "haaack" device. And that tool actually may have some guardians in comparison with plain root shell.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

flasher-3.5 --enable-rd-mode

fatalsaint, your whole argument is based around the idea that a user with a broken Application Manager and without rootsh or ssh installed is stuck. This is clearly not the case, so I suggest you reevaluate your position.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

It is already filed by me (bug 7149) - I think it has a common reason.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

A completely hypothetical and unlikely scenario. Hardly justification for Red Pill mode. The average person does not have .deb files just lying around on their system, nor should they. If you're writing your own app, you should be comfortable enough with the command line to know what you're doing. And no one will support you (nor should they) if you insist on manually installing .deb files directly unless they EXPLICITLY tell you to do so (and that's rare.)

Then suggest that the rootsh package be included by default. I suspect, however, that anyone who truly needs it will have internet access. It was the first package I installed when I got my N900. You're arguing for extremely obscure corner cases.

Each time we encounter a case where you have to go to the shell or use Red Pill mode to fix something isn't a reason FOR Red Pill, it's a bug in the base UI that should be fixed.

No, standards are -extremely- important. They keep the system running.

Being a high end open source tablet with mobile phone capabilities means you don't run roughshod over the proper operation of your package management system. It's open, not a rickety hack.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

I know what I'm doing on my own, I am very good with linux. I know everything I need in the command line. The problem lies that I cannot do it without rootsh, and I cannot get rootsh without internet. I go on family vacations.. I have, in the past, downloaded entire sets of debs for my laptops that I know I'll need while I'm reinstalling my Linux's out on family vacation, in the mountains, with no internet.

Sometimes I don't plan so well.. and miss some debs.. and yes that's frustrating :D. Sometimes.. works out great.. and I can get a lot done hidden away in a trailer in the middle of no where.

Hello? Where have you been? That's exactly what I've been arguing for - putting rootsh in by default. I am arguing for a case that actually happened.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

I would suggest not wrecking your system's software while on vacation.

And my point would be that the case you described should handle itself automatically, without requiring red pill mode or rootsh.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

Funny coming from you GA.

R&D mode enables more than just root access.

Edit: Also, enabling R&D mode for a typical end-user is just intrusive as reflashing. They may as well reflash the device to fix the problem in the other thread. A very simple problem.. with a very simple fix. But complicated solely due to the lack of access to the device.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

You asked for a way to get root with no way to install rootsh and not other root access. This is it. The reason I'm not recommending that users pick R&D mode as the default root access solution.

Of course it does, but this is a troubleshoot-or-reflash situation. After the issue has been fixed all they need to run is.

flasher-3.5 --disable-rd-mode

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

Well.. I suppose that'll have to be good enough. I don't believe it should be necessary to use a computer to gain root. Again.. no different than an iPhone :(.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

So connecting their device to a computer and enabling R&D mode, troubleshooting their issue, then disabling it is more intrusive than having to start from scratch (perhaps with no backup available)? Interesting.

Either way, the issue here isn't whether the solution is more or less convenient. You're claim was that there was no other way out, which is quite clearly not the case.

You can make an argument for a nice, friendly recovery mode, but that's outside the scope of this particular discussion. :)

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

Very different. That you don't see this says your perspective is extremely skewed. I'll say it's no different from an iPhone when Nokia actively attacks attempts to gain root access.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

I did specifically say I didn't care how easy gaining root was... but my caveate was that everything be on the device.

Shouldn't need an external device to gain root to my system.

I guess... running a series of commands that a user can copy/paste into a terminal is easier for me, as a helper, than trying to walk the user through R&D mode. It requires too much handling on their end and too much to go wrong.

Copy/paste, and then maybe a way to disable root when I'm done with them, and their device is fixed. Simple and efficient.

But I appear to be the only one that cares.. so I'll just drop it.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

I didn't say Nokia was no different than Apple. I said using R&D mode is no different than Jailbreaking an iPhone.. and using rootsh is no different than rooting a G1. (Except that I think google patched that particular hole. But, in my case, I rooted G1 with a simple app I loaded on my phone. Didn't even need a computer.)

ETA: I guess I fell in love with a fantasy.. I wanted a device that gave me control... not that I'd have to force into submission. There's already plenty of those.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

Let me politely points you what everybody wants it. Vote to return red pill or you will get a root access from everybody.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

I didn't say gives me control even though I have no idea what I'm doing....;)

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

How is R&D mode like jailbreaking? The flasher is provided by Nokia and the functionality is documented. You don't need R&D mode normally to get root access, it's only needed in that obscure usecase you're bringing up.
How is using an exploit that google is trying to stop the same as installing an app that is perfectly legally for download in the extras repository provided by Nokia.

You have 100% control over the device, save some drivers as far as I can remember and some crappy built-in apps that are easily replaced with FOSS solutions.

On maemo 6 there will be a drm-mode, but it will be perfectly optional and the device will be 100% functional if you don't want to listen to drm media or install drm apps.

You can't get more free and in control than that. Maybe only if you build the device yourself.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

@ColdFusion
You do have an argument that flasher is provided by nokia, and iPhones is not provided by apple. But this goes to the fundamental ideologies of the respective companies - I don't speak negatively about Nokia.

However.. having to connect the device to a computer, use a flasher utility, flash the device with a specific something - is the same for jailbreaking the iPhone or RD mode for the N900. The end-user process is nearly identical... except that at least the iPhone one is a GUI I think :D.

And what do you think rootsh is? It is a hack. It takes advantage of the fact that the Application manager runs as root, and then creates the necessary files to enable the user to run as root. It is, in fact, an exploit in the way the system works.

Now.. because Nokia doesn't care about it is an excellent argument for why Nokia > Google > Apple.. but not the N900 > whatever. They are all exploits.

If it was an official nokia package.. it would be in there by default.. which is what I'm asking for.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

Nokia cares about it. They want it to be there, they just can't handle legally or financially or w/e, for it to be official.
And it's different than android in the sense that like you said, google already patched their exploit.

Like I said R&D is not the normal way to get root, it's only useful in that scenario where you can't install anything.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

I consider that article to be inaccurate.

By installing an application to grant root - You are in fact "unlocking" the device.. because, without the application, what is it? Oh that's right.. locked ;).

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

Probably, from Nokia point of view you are exactly in this position...

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

BTW: Thanks for that article. When I realized helping that other guy that the N900 really didn't have root "out of box" I was really infuriated as I was sure that I had seen somewhere a video or screenshot of someone doing it and no mention of rootsh at all. I believe that article was it.. it gives the impression of a completely open system.

This phrase:
Mislead me I guess... I read that as; whether you want to install an application - OR get root access.. the choice is yours. What it should really say is .. "install an application to get root access, it's you who decide."

That would have saved me a bit of heartache.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

Exactly.
damn minimal character count

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

You guys are still failing to acknowledge they are all hacks. It's just in this case Nokia doesn't "care".. or even, to some extent, in somewhat sort of in a kinda round-about way actually support it.

Google and Apple both try and Patch their holes.. so people keep coming out with new ones. Round and Round they go, where they stop, nobody knows.

Nokia is more like "Meh... srsly.. it's not that big of a deal. Let em have it."

That's how I take it.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

Well, Nokia is more than one person.
The Nokia N-series VP seemed to take it that way.
But on the other side, on the previous page you have the project manager talking about how he wanted to keep the "install any .deb" button...

And even then this is worse than the "actively against root access" how?

Yet again in a deadend topic that has been discussed a shitload of times...

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

What difference does it make if the user has a pump action or a semiautomatic should s/he choose to shoot him/herself in the foot?

You either stick to the repository of known good apps your you run the risk. Having a button is no more dangerous. It's not like it has "brick" in the menu you just tap while half asleep.

One needs to read up on it, enable it, push it, then browse to a package and agree.

Nothing saves you from that. If anything, having to jump through hoops is more of a warning than pasting unknown strings in the terminal.

If you paste stuff in terminal and you have no clue about what they do then no safeguard will help you. And depriving others of a feature is not the answer.

What next? iApproved iContent only?

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

I disagree.. as has been said several times, by many people.. in our experience.. "Click this, Click that" is more commonly followed than "type this, type that". People expect GUI's.

Even RevdKathy tried explaining that.. Oh well.. "deadlocked" topic is right.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

Several people where posting extras-devel as the place to install from or even direct links to .deb files to average joe. At this point is the problem. This is a place for the whole community using Nxxx devices and the maemo OS or Mer, from user to root. Preventing easy file installation progress is the right answer I guess. It is a shame that this needed to happen! Maybe service hotline called for it after people calling with briked devices... who knows.

Please keep in mind that using stable repos is the best way for joe. Using devel repos, apt-get and dpkg is for geeks/devs familiar with it, so was redpill-mode. I run a testing distribution at home, I started it with thinking to be ready for it after about one year of administrating a linux OS. Installing .deb files screwed my system several times and I needed help from friends till I was familiar with it and could solve such problems myself. Sometimes it was a painful learning experience!

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

fatalsaint... bravo for standing your ground and forcing myself (and others) to view this problem in a different light since you had already run into this. This community rocks and Maemo has a chance if people stand behind it like this.

Just wanted to chime in and say that...

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

This is the problem. Imagine what would've happened if it was easy to install stuff from the developers repositories and stand alone debs. No average user would have cared that the apps were not ready, optified and so on. They'll just assume that that's the way maemo apps are and then moan when they can't install the firmware update or their battery life is miserable or the phone crashes every 10 minutes.
It leads to a worse user experience. And the only trade off is that you won't be able to recover your phone in the unlikely situation when you don't have internet connection, the app manager is down, you don't have rootsh installed and you don't have access to a computer. Which wouldn't help in an other scenario where the only way to recover it is to ssh into it.
Would I be happier if it has root and ssh out of the box, of course! But the platform would suffer, because the userbase is not ready for it.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

Rootsh is available in the Extras... not testing, not devel, not anything. So "gaining" root has not been hidden, or in any way discouraged. It's in the user repository.

For me to take that argument seriously (that users shouldn't have it) - it needs to be permanently in testing. It is already so easy to get rootsh that it makes it pointless that it's not there by default.

I agree with the rest of your comment ColdFusion... Testing and Devel repositories have to be added by hand for a reason - and both come with a warning banner. Neither of these conditions apply to rootsh. It's already point-click easy to get root.. may as well just make it default. OR, if the intent is to protect users from themselves... bury it better. Pick a theory and go with it.. right now it makes no sense.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

No, it's not that easy, you have to know to install it, you have to know how to use dpkg, and you have to not fear the terminal. The average dude, coming from Windows doing anything in the console is like "hacking the Gibson" so they stay away from it most of the time. But with having red pill mode, it looks more like a secret cheat mode and they are more tempted to abuse it.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

true, but abuse it with what? this thread reffers only to install fom file. Noone can be that irresponsible to start installing packages they don't know nothing of.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

What?

My understanding is you can install rootsh from the extras repository. Which, to me, would mean it shows up inside the Application Manager. Which would mean all a person does is click "rootsh" and then "install". No need to know dpkg, apt, or even that a terminal exists to have the capability of getting "root" on their phone.

Here it is, in the extras repository. So the only thing I don't know.. is if App Manager hides it, and you have to drop to a shell to run "apt-get install rootsh".

ETA: In fact.. that's the only way you *could* install this app.. since you can't run dpkg without it installed.

So yes.. it's that easy.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

Ohhhh you'd be surprised... :rolleyes:

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

they can!
its like "click this link to download the mp3" and finding himself in a lawsuit.
that is even worse and people still do it.

joe does not need rootsh, give him safe repos and good. If someone feels like wanting root, go ahead. It isn't that Nokia closed something! It is actually a safety feature for joe... to remove the gui for it.
CLI users are faster wget-ing and "dpkg -i"-ing then waiting for HAM starting up cause a shell is open anyway...

If it will setup again it should come with a huge "ATTENTION!!! YOU MAY BRICK YOUR DEVICE" very warning!

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

who needs red pill mode? doesnt look like nokia coding, more like a hack.. plus it doesnt install every 'deb file unlike xterm..........

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

I'm not talking how easy it is to install rootsh. I'm talking how challenging it seems for "joe" to install standalone debs with the terminal in comparison with red pill mode. And it's good that way.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

Somewhere in this thread is some useful info... :D

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

We seem to have had a disconnect somewhere.

I have never once argued that point. Just as I don't argue with losing Red Pill. I have said that having the ability to install a deb without the application manager is a *very* useful troubleshooting tool for those that know how to do it.. and when people like me try and help others we sometimes have them do that. I didn't say, and in fact discourage, this method from being a GUI.

My point is you keep seeming to want to argue with me about protecting the user from themselves is why root is not on the device by default. Others have said it saves Nokia support money.. or whatever.

I still say all of these are folly.. when rootsh is already so easy to get.

Re: Do you want INSTALL FROM FILE back?
 

Could you please show me.. cuz.. even I've gotten turned around somehow :confused:

:D