Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

Just finished listening to the latest Software Freedom Law Show podcast, and they had concluded that Android was the best fit for them.
It is normally a podcast that deals with legal matters around open source licensing, but this week they explained why they had standardised on Android

Maemo had been ruled out as there was only one manufacturer (or at least that was how I understood it), and there was some debate as to exactly how open it really is.

I give them a little leeway as they are USA based and the mobile market there is totally different from the rest of the world.

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

They make me laughing a bit

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

A Chinese manufacturer (forget which) announced last year they would be using Maemo for at least one of their devices.

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

If Maemo is not the most open soft then what is ? I must do everything myself on this phone :) and I'm happy

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

The only thing I could think is there is certain drivers and stuff that are still closed source I believe... The entire android operating system can be downloaded, compiled, and run by whoever wants to. Up to them to write their own drivers though.

Is a complete Maemo, including kernel, downloadable and runnable by anyone that wants? I've never bothered to look that closely at what minute differences between maemo and debian are.

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

that's most likely the reason for their conclusion, because with Maemo that's not possible right now.

a few closed packages remain:
http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

This page documents the closed packages as well:
http://wiki.maemo.org/Free_Maemo

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

strangely, this is a similar problem to Android (closed drivers and apps), but apparently there are some devs working on at least the hardware drivers.

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

The only thing you can't have with android is the google apps. But the OS itself is fine.

Correct about the drivers.. but that's anywhere. You need the drivers for the stuff. Technically both Android and Maemo use linux kernels, so compiling already open sourced drivers for, say, a desktop computer should be doable if someone wanted.

But it appears by that wiki page that some integral parts of the Maemo OS are closed source - making users unable to build a complete Maemo from sources. With Android.. you can build a complete Android OS, add the drivers and have a functioning system. You just won't have google market, and the google apps. Good example is NitDroid.

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

I guess Mer is supposed to be equal to the open part of Android eventually. Still, Android is a lot more isolated from desktop Linux. Do Google / vendors interact with the community like Nokia does with Maemo?

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

Darn, I bought the N900 because I thought it was the most open...

Actually I'm very pleased with my choice, and I've no wish to depend heavily on the Google mothership for services anyway.

But, honestly, if I had heard the SFLS discussion a few months ago, there's a good chance I would have been persuaded to the other side.

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

Am I wrong if I assume we're going to be running lots more userspace apps that are free software on Maemo than Android users? That isn't meaningless either, IMO.

Here's some more info on what exactly isn't free and where Maemo is trying to go with this, one of those wiki pages is outdated and the other definitely needs work to be a bit more clear:
http://maemo.org/community/maemo-dev...free_packages/

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

guys - the N900 is not a phone - it is a computer so cant really be in the running...... *ROFL*

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

Everyone saying that the n900 is not a phone seems like a bit of a cop-out to me. It is also a phone, so I'm looking forward to it being the best phone it can be. With all of it's computer-y goodness too.

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

I agree - I was being sarcastic...

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

Isn't Symbian also in process of becoming totally open? And it's also used by many companies

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

Open aint just about code. Governance plays a big part, too, and Android falls flat on its face there.

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

This I wholeheartedly agree with.

But they are both factors... so I can see why some people might call android "more open" than Maemo as a sales pitch just because the source is more open.

Android itself is not the problem.. but Google is in no way a Nokia. When Google starts allowing their phones to be rooted with an app in the official google market.... then we'd have something to truly discuss about "openness".

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

I'm seriously having issues seeing Android as more Free... it uses Java if I'm not mistaken... and that last I checked still wasn't fully Freed from preprietary bits and pieces.

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

Another factor when qualifying "openness" is compatibility and platform lock-in. With Android, you're using a completely custom Google application environment. No X, no recognizable desktop toolkits. Hell, the Java isn't even quite right. In sum, that means that applications you program for Android only run on Android (VM porting doesn't really count here).

Maemo's advantage here comes with its compatibility with desktop Linux. It has X, it has GTK+ and Qt. Applications you program for Maemo are easy to run on other platforms (especially with Qt)—Linux, OS X, Windows, Symbian—and applications for these platforms (especially Linux GTK+/Qt stuff) are easily ported to Maemo.

Tools you recognize on an ecosystem that isn't designed to lock you in to a vendor's platform.

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

The Android flavor of Java, the Dalvik VM as I understand is fully free. I thought at least all of what constitutes J2SE is too these days.

Still, seems to me like the non-free parts of Android are similar to Maemo's, there's probably a bit less of them but that is a little hard to tell because 1) there are many Android devices and what is closed is likely to vary between them 2) the Maemo wiki documentation doesn't really seem to be up to date on this issue.

I listened to the podcast and their main argument for choosing Android as their platform seemed to be that they are more convinced it will be around for a long time to come than they are with Maemo's continuing existence. Another thing they seemed to be saying was that there is so much work to be done in maemo userspace apps that devs have no time or interest to concentrate on making the low-level stuff free (not sure that is a very sensible argument but there you have it).

They admitted that there is more free software in the applications for Maemo but think that it's a non-issue and the low-level things like kernel modules and libraries are what is the hard stuff to get free. Another issue with Android they mentioned was that the App store is not usable at all with an unofficial firmware, "it's a bit like Debian without apt-get". I think they underestimate the effect having Google be a bit uncooperative can have on the platform.

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

It's pretty useless to discuss about what's more "open" - because the word "open" means different things to different people.

If you define "open" as "I can download the whole code and compile it in my PC", then maybe Android is more open, yes.

I personally define "open" as "The licensing guarantees that most of what I have on my device is free software. It also guarantees that contributions made to the open source code cannot be abused in proprietary applications." - Android fails here because the whole Android part of Android is not copyleft. When you buy a Android phone, it may well be that everything except the kernel and a few low-level components is proprietary, closed source.

Another way to look at it is how the so-called "open" system is related to the whole GNU/Linux ecosystem that people find on their desktops and laptops... And if you look at the list of files in Maemo, you'll find a lot that is also on your Ubuntu PC. Changes made for Maemo (to fix bugs or to enhannce overall performance) will be of use for any other distribution that includes these packages (and the other way round). That's not the case with Android, which is pretty much a universe of its own and has very little in common with anything outside the Google empire.

So the bottom line is... don't compare "openness". Compare access to the source code, licensing, "being a good free software citizen",... whatever. "Open" is almost as subjective as "good" or "tasty".

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

Considering the context here is the SFLC it's proper to assume that open is closer to the Free Software definition than any other.

Re: Is Android the most open phone, yes according to Software Freedom Law Show podcast
 

As usual with Law there is interpretation, and the spirit of what is intended. For me this translates to participation in the overall open software eco system.

The Maemo teams deeper integration into Upstream activities is what wins the open discussion with me. This is about given back as well as taking from.