"Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

Jim Zemlin (the Executive Director of the Linux Foundation ) wrote a good critical piece on Linux.com about the shortcomings of current Linux offerings.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

You're right we should make our own slate and design a brand new shiny UI with multi-touch, who's in?

Actually that sounds really fun, however impossibly hard, time consuming, and expensive it may be in reality. I'll let the big companies deal with bringing the magic, I'm just here to enjoy it and possibly help make it better with plenty of commentary. :)

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

I think that is very wise indeed. As a 'normal user' I've stayed away from all things linux thinking it was far too complex for me. N900 has convinced me otherwise: for the ordinary user, provided we get continue to stock extras and ovi, there would be no need to do anything with n900 beyond the user interface (yes, I know, one might choose to). And n900 does work like magic, apart from a few features which are still being worked on.

I'm still a little unconvinced whether I'd ant ubuntu on a device I make a lot of use of because it has that 'too complicated' assoication in my head.

I think Maemo is doing well with its current focus on UI - that's where Apple really, really excels. You need more bears in the system to say "That's easy" or "That's clunky" about the UI.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

The problem extends well beyond the UI. One of the reasons that many netbooks are moving to Windows is because the perception of consumers who were used to Windows on laptops and desktops was that Linux was cheap in the sense of low priced but also limited because of that. There are many Linux apps that have a UI which can best be described as bare bones. There are many others that are or look unfinished. Few (relatively speaking) are polished, much less magic. This is most apparent in the gaming arena. There is nothing I have found in the Linux world to compare to the current class of Windows games such as Dragon Age Origins or even leading Windows games from several years ago.

I would see the problem as stemming from the FOSS model. Unfortunately, UI development is boring and time consuming. Commercial vendors can devote resources to it in anticipation of recouping their investment in sales. Independent programmers have to be self-motivated. Of the efforts mentioned in the original article, I would see Android as by far the most significant, not because of the OS's UI but because it is attracting commercial development through the app store.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

whats basically needed is a massive press event where someone walks up on stage and shows people exactly what they can use product X for, in a step by step manner, without it being a out and out training session.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

Great article... and I agree with tso.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

Perhaps Mark Shuttleworth could perform this function? He had a lot to say about this recently.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

The only thing Linux really suffers from is the effective FUD campaigning of competitors.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

Linux as a technology is very competitive. It's the implementation of it that needs to catch up. The software needs to be organized around the hardware and tightly coupled to services. That's what Apple is. The iphone/ipad, the iphone os, and itunes + Apple app store. It's all integrated, that's the magic. I can't see anything inherently preventing Google/nexus/Android or Nokia/n-series/OVI from surpassing Apple in this regard. They have the resources, they just need the direction.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

Good article. Nokia heard this rant a few years back (and oft-times on this forum). They've made progress, wonder what will be next...

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

From the same article

"The Linux Foundation isn’t just going to complain about the need for more “Magic” on the Linux platform - we are going to do something about it. Stay tuned over the next few weeks for big news on just how we will accomplish this."

Thats more like it.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

I think there's an inversely proportional relationship between the 'magic' and the perceived 'power' that conventional linux users crave.

The 'magic' that Apple has repeatedly demonstrated has to do with making computing simpler and reimplementing real world objects\workflows\analogs into their interface design (to make things more intuitive) - both of which are generally shunned by power users.

At the end of the day Apple designs their products for the regular Joes and Janes, and capitalizing greatly from it... and much of the FOSS userbase simply don't appreciate the same thing as them (although they seem to secretly envy parts of Apple's positions/assets).

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

i just hope its not more gnome/kde4 nonsense...

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

From something I did with my tablet, plus this quote from the other iPad thread, I'd like to propose what magic looks like:

First, what I did with my tablet:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=27279

Second, the quote:
Third, the magic:

The hardware needs to be the size and weight of the regular Kindle. No keyboard as the OS's input layer is totally finger optimized. However, there is a stylus because you'll need it for...

The main software would simply be a Firefox/MicroB-like web browser Xournal with some extensions for shapes, creating vector graphics, and sharing notes via PDF directly to devices (ad hoc networking).

*Missed one thing: needs Office file editor, not viewer.

The targeted use is to office workers who need to annotate, browse files on hosted shares/servers within an enterprise, and have a sufficient notification system for email, IM, and VoIP (w/wireless headset).

For what I'm speaking about, color or not, this device comes in under $400 USD. The user interface is built around the browser and Xournal, making the rest of the user experience derivative of the lessons from both those applications.

If Linux wants magic, it needs to package the wonderful energy of its contributors into something like this. Otherwise, it will always be a niche population, seeing the polish of others, and never pulling together what it means to be a cohesive solution, rather than an agreement of many parts.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

Sounds ideal to me.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

I got netbook with ubuntu and n900, tell me why would I need an iPad (or similar), I can't think of anything useful :<

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

isn't the magic of linux that you don't see the magic?

like vim or mutt. it's ugly but much faster than gui programs. The magic of apple are the looks. the magic of linux should be primary the usability.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

Just out of curiosity, do you prefer Lynx or Elinks as a browser?

For those who don't recognize the names, those are leading text based browsers. Most people have never heard of them because most people will put up with the relative slowness of a graphical browser. The idea that Linux's prowess at command line processing gives it a big (or any meaningful) advantage is an outdated perspective that won't seem to go away.

Right now, I find myself far more limited by 3G and even Wi-Fi speeds than I do by the slowness of the OS/program. For marginal computers like the N900, Linux still makes a difference but that difference is diminishing as Moore's law takes over.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

I can get vim and mutt on OS X, which is why I have a Macbook. Every Mac comes with an xterm and bash. All the power and usability with the magic on top. The power of Linux is that its -open- so you can go FULL MAGIC! or no magic at all.

And quite frankly, the world likes FULL MAGIC! so they can blithely ignore the underlying bits and do what they want to do. The problem is Apple seems to be carrying forward with FULL MAGIC! and being totally closed at the same time, least on the mobile front. Considering the eyes they're winning among the non-techie crowd (and even the techie crowd) that's quite dangerous.

So if the Linux Foundation wants to push efforts to give more MAGIC options to Linux distros such that they can actually compete, then we can only benefit.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

That's no outdated perspective. It's a matter of one's point of view, nothing more.

if you think there's no meaningful advantage to a powerful commandline, may i direct your attention to Microsoft's recent desperate attempt to provide something for "power" users: Powershell!

this has of course nothing to do with "magic", linux definitely needs some of that to be more successful in mainstream markets.
i just couldn't let that comment stand :)


edit:
upon reading your post a second time, i guess i misinterpreted what you referred to by "advantage". disregard this post. ;)

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

When thinking like that linux will never get mainstream. Look at windows and mac os, both are trying to do a more glorious gui with every version they release. Why you can guess? Compare to a car, do you want a car that is appealing to look at or do you want a rusty old one(that is working like linux compared to win/mac)?

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

Sorry for the wall of text. posting from my phone.

Well the idea and the magic around the Ipad is a mystery since it,s more like one of those giant calculators/pens/clips and other "funny" office stuff you can buy for your bosses birthday...

On the otherhand it would have been a killer product that I would pre-ordered like yesterday if it have had pen/stylus support, drag n drop filesystem and multitasking. (and Maemo)
I would love a big portable notepad and to show off photos for my clients without the need of a laptop all the time.

I'm a pretty firm beliver in the "anythingbutapple" community and really worked hard to understand how so many people can be willing to spend so much cash as they do for inferior hardware and software limitations compared to what it cost and we are used to in the PC world ie.

Linux big problem pops up as soon as you leave the computers
and venture onto and into other hardware, take the N900 for example, we are at the mercy of Nokia's good will to produce a machine to put the magic code in use.

Can't see that many awesome killer machines designed and produced by this fabolous community that work so hard to bring out the good stuff :D
I wish though...

The problem arises everytime we want a machine (most of the time that we can play with) that we can't be picky about looks.
So we end up with something that got a design that dates back to in best case, early Si-Fi and we tend to see beyond the surface in a way regular consumers do not.

Hell even the N900 is kind of lame and pretty average when it comes to the design especially from a company as big as Nokia.

"It's uuum... Like a sleek coffin design, chubby like to o.g N97 and did i mention it come's in various flavors of black?"

Don't get me wrong, I love my N900 just as much as my pre-production N900 but it IS boring to look at (atleast all the girls at work and my wife think so)

Nokia could atleast push out cool kits for it like nice screen protectors, silicon sleeves etc.
That would atleast be less mindnumbing then their regular stuff for their phones.
Ofc I personally envy any random apple store and all the stuff they sell to pimp all their gear.

Imagine if Nokia released a new Tablet roughly half the size or same as of the ipad with maemo on it in a more costly costume (sexy, expensive looking) aimed at the same crowd but with a multitude of more features to please us tech geeks? MAGIC!

Pretty solid chance it would sell quite well :D

Plastic isn't always fantastic when it comes to screens, except if you plan to go rough on it, apple doesn't sell features, they sell design and a tightly controlled enviroment inside it that even monkeys understand how to use.

Linux/Maemo is working on it but for total novices it's alot to grasp within the do-it-yourself way Linux works even though it's superior to all other portable OS.

Who knows? Nokia mentioned a new maemo device 2010...


*edit pretty tired at the time of posting, so some of the content might sound a little random ;)
Sorry for that.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

Mr Zemlin seems to think that the competitive advantage of Linux is price. While I would expect some random misinformed journalist only seeing the free-beer argument it's kinda sad to hear it from the Executive Director of the Linux Foundation :-(

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

IMHO, if you design a system that even monkeys can use, only the monkeys will use it. That is not to say that I don't agree with most of your points.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

The true engineering achievement will be in reconciling the "magic" and the "power". The common assumption is that both are not compatible, which is plain out wrong.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

One point of interest is that often developers dismiss UI's, just because they are "pretty", when in fact a UI does more than that.

A true, well designed UI, is helpful to the user, making its use of the software easier, more productive; and even pleasant, depending on how the eye-candy is managed.

Take a look a this, for example:

http://patifa.wordpress.com/2009/11/...g-the-weather/

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

I completely agree. That's why I worded it carefully by saying 'the perceived power that's craved by conventional linux users...'.

Unfortunately most zealots are too absorbed in the implementation of concepts that their camps represent and they auto-shun anything else the other camps produce for their own good.

Too proud to analyze, acknowledge and absorp/imitate the other camp's features and advantages to enhance their own.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

This is an attitude. You're some sort of monkey until you're some time at school. And may be youre a monkey when youre getting old and your brain suffers. Some people are monkeys their whole life. And most people simple are not interested in computers. All this people need a simple device for surfing the web and reading email and do other computer based stuff. Steves skill is to detect the needs of the masses and kick his engineers harder than others to reach a higher usablility. Engineers (and linuxianer) are bored after they have delivered a proof of concept. The do not kick themselfes to reach the optimal usability as its a hard and boring job.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

Just looking at what is being developed in Qt right now makes me confident about the future direction of Maemo's UI. You can't ever be too sexy!

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

Agree totally about the UI.
As I wrote in my post about monkeys and design, most people love a sleek and intuitive UI and informative notes under each app on the screen , I think I'm atleast a little more advanced then the average user and got the brainpower to remember what icon/widget does what, that's just one of the things people I handed over one of N900's to pointed out.

Many times it's been unclear if they press the internet icon or the Maep app, people want stuff they can understand right away.

Same thing when downloading apps, wiki is your friend to understand what some of em actually does for you :)

So yes, a slick UI will beat the alternatives 9 out of 10 times for the average user and I think apple proved that fact for the last 3 years on portable devices.

I'm not sure if the Ipad is the device that will make tablets popular among the masscrowd, but if It lays out the way for others and a slick, expensive looking device fueled by Maemo shows up I would be impressed.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

If you do one thing over and over again, then an intuitive UI with informative notes is unnecessary, but to classify those of us who have to use multiple systems with multiple applications to accomplish various tasks as "average users" is demeaning. A good UI benefits users at all levels.

Your attitude is the reason that even IT professionals (like myself) tend to leave Linux for their Apache and MySQL servers. For day to day computing the Windows or Mac UIs and applications are more productive because of things like "informative notes".

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

I think it came out the "wrong way" (not native english speaking person behind the keyboard here)

Well since the topic was Ipad and magic, I took it as the "magic" was how easy people started liking apple´s approach to UI design on mobile devices and how tons of people around me repeats all day long "damn it´s so easy and understandable, it´s just amazing" compared to me ranting how nice it is it is with X-Terminal and all the tweaking that can be done, they just see "the magic".

My intention was in no way meant to sound demeaning and I would say it´s a far stretch to call any normal random Linux skilled person "average users" when it comes to computer skills :)

Pretty sure you would beat my tiny skills easy but I´m a quick learner haha!

So sorry if it came out that way.
It´s hard sometimes to express oneself sometimes and things get missread due to crippled language skills.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

I complete agree. However, I don't think it HAS to be an either/or type relationship. I think what's brilliant about Apple's desktop OS is that, although they have the nice interface for the everyday user (and that's probably more than 90% of computer users), there is an underlying Unix system that more advanced users can use. Its really the best of both worlds, 'magic' and 'power'.

It may be easier for Apple, who long has been catering to artists and everyday users, to move to a system that gives more power to the user, than it is for Linux to start catering to the everyday user.

N900 is awesome for me, since i am in research. For a phone, even i want simplicity to use. What if the iPhone suddenly exposes a unix terminal window? That would be pretty awesome (for the iphone, i mean, not for the N900 :)).

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

I have a fiber optic internet line to my house. It's certainly been fast using IE or Firefox on Windows XP... but one day I booted to Ubuntu and fired up its version of Firefox, and all I could say was WOW. Blazing speed.

So I'm with you on this one. ;)

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

If there is an interest and clear intention of moving the Linux(/FOSS) 'mainstream', IMHO the first thing that has to be overcome is the understanding of what being mainstream means and what values are there to the general Linux movement and its community.

Otherwise, the constant elitist attitude will continue to be a big stumbling block in moving forward, especially in identifying good concepts to follow or emulate. (no, I don't think it's in anyone's best interest to convert every computer users to emacs nor vi(m)).

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

The first thing that should be repeated as a mantra is "Care about your users".

Sometimes I get the impression that since some people suffered pains in order to learn how to use a computer, they think others should do too...

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

Interesting thread.

As a 10+ years GNU+Linux user and 5+ years distro developer and an IT professional. I can say the following:

a) UIs are great if you have a way to fallback to editing a config file.

Let me expand on that point. I've tended quite a few windows systems and frankly they all suffered from this one simple core issue. Often I found myself trying to figure something out and not being able to do so because I couldn't understand what an option did. It wasn't mentioned anywhere, undocumented and so on. Most software I've used on GNU+Linux systems had complete basic documentation of options and some even had a lot more than just basic. This always made it easy for me to understand what the software was doing and what I needed to do. Yes some things can be checked in the registry but that is overkill for something as simple as a config file. And before everyone jumps on the not well documented. A lot of times the config options in the config file are self explaining while what you see in an UI at times isn't.

b) Everything has an UI, but not all UIs are well designed

Yes every app you ever launched has an UI. Be it a command line app, text UI, GUI etc... Those are all UIs. Remember it means User Interface. Yes even a config file is an UI. And yes even those can be badly designed.

c) Elitism

No it's not about the attitude. Just because some people prefer a different workflow does not make them elitist. Else all the Outlook crowd is elitist as well. We each have our own workflows(some of which haven't been completly worked out yet, some of which are good where they stand etc...). I've tried a lot of tools for my own workflow over the years. And am still lacking some tools. But here are my reasons for using some:
Alpine - it's a no-nonsense mail client for me, it only handles a single message at a time for reading/replying/composing/etc.. I like it that way it means I can concentrate on that single message and put some effort into it. I see so many Outlook users have 20 different messages open at the same time and never taking the time to respond to them properly. The amount of typoed emails I recieve from such people is incledible. Sometimes I wonder if they ever actually went to school(and no, not even a spell checker helps there).

So yeah nothing else than the workflow matters. For some people that workflow is handled best with Windows, some Mac and some something else. I couldn't get my own workflow going on Windows and haven't tried with Mac simply because the cost is to high.

d) "magic" - there is no magic... there is no single magic bullet.

Each person will have their own wants, desires, etc... Some can and will adapt their workflow to existing tools, some(what most people call advancade users/power users etc) will adapt the tools to their workflow. I belong in the second category. The computer is a tool meant to make my life easier not something I need to adapt my life TO. I see a lot of people adapting themselves to the computer instead of adapting the computer to their needs. And I can understand that some just want to get on with their work even if it means their workflow might suffer here and there. Maybe some day they'll learn to adapt the tool to their workflow maybe not. But I'm sure if everyone learned to adapt the tools to their needs(and no I'm not talking coding here) most people would become aware of why some tools are less than ideal for their needs.

Just my 0.02€ why GNU+Linux doesn't really need any extra magic. It has it. It's the users that lack interest into it.

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

That's gorgeous. Where can I get that list app? Pretty please?

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

Interesting thread, I think I'll just be replicating things that were already said, but here goes anyways...

This is a great point... I think this might be where the worlds of Unix/Linux and Apple/Windows do not agree.

I would propose that 90%+ of computer users in the world do not want to see a text file, or would want to edit it even if it were there.

Example, I use Mac and Windows for graphical art and music, where you deal with huge data files, and typically there are no text files to be found (unless I am writing plug-ins). E.g., Maya, 3DSMax, Photoshop, Cakewalk... I do not see it as a limitations, and rather a strength... the only time I really want to see a text file is if I am writing software. The text files would be much to large to be meaningful without visual/audio feedback, and would be inefficient to even deal with in your day-to-day work flow.

It might be just my impression... I actually notice hard to use GUIs on Unix/Linux software more-so than other OS's. On my Linux Ubuntu box, I hardly ever use any GUIs, except for web-browsing.

I have a theory that many Linux software are wrappers/glue between other libraries and command-line programs much more so than on Windows/Apple (except now Apple has a lot of open-source projects, but i mean traditional Apple products for media arts). Perhaps interfaces are built bottom up on Linux (considering what tools can do the job to provide the functionality), rather than top-down in the GUI-only operating systems (first considering the high level use-cases and interfaces, which lead into requirements, which lead into design...).

Re: "Linux can compete with the iPad on price, but where’s the magic? "
 

Nope, they're just *****s (sorry, but I hate programs that pervert internet standards with a passion, all microsoft software is perverting them but outlook is the worst offender, and people using it are either ignorant, stupid, arrogant or, 99% of cases, all of the above . In a word, *****s).