Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? -testing? i386? What works where?
 

I mean specifically, what is the "Diablo" repository and how is it different from "fremantle?"

I'm trying to be careful with what I do to my N900 here, but at the same time I want to explore what is available for it. I know about the warnings associated with downloading from extras-testing and extras-devel, so there's no need to repeat those here for me.


While I'm on this topic, I'd like to take the time to adress something that's been on my mind. Namely, that I find the whole setup and process of exploring what is available for downloading onto my N900 - by using the maemo site - very confusing and off-putting - and I am not the type who gets confused or put off very easily!

I enjoy reading these boards, and I appreciate all the back-and-forth about different devices, their strengths and weaknesses. I for one appreciate the position of the N900, precisely because of its openness, as opposed to the "commercially bound-up" approach of Apple products, to give a common example.

However, if Nokia, and the MAEMO team, and even the regular power users that frequent these forums, really had it in their hearts to put their money where their mouth is, and offer a product that provided freedom from the typically commercialized products that are the alternatives to the Nokia N900 (Android, iPhone, etc), then they would make the entire process of browsing, exploring, and applying applications to the N900 a much more available and user-friendly process.

Sorry to raise my voice, but I didn't want this point to get lost in all that I had to say. The repositories as they currently exist are cryptic, labyrinthine, and opaque. And by that I mean both browsing them on a computer and as they are listed for download in the applications area on the N900.

A little more description of what the item is, how it works and what it does, a little more support in terms of use, a few illustrations or screenshots - these are standards that most people are accustomed to just about anywhere you go on the web, but are strangely lacking on the Maemo site.

Again, I'm sorry to sound like I'm lecturing the site-ops or coders/uploaders of apps here, because everything they do is appreciated by all of us. But would it be too much to ask for a little more user-friendly approach to fixing up our N900's the way we like, in the spirit of freedom that is the raison-detre of the N900 (as I see it), without having to be an experienced Linux user?

I expect I will be told the party line, that "if you don't know what you're doing, you should stay out of the repositories", but I think that is a weak excuse and just another example of exclusionary thinking. If the N900 is about freedom of use for its owners, then it should be made more accessible, not less, to make that freedom of use a reality. And when I cannot even find a simple explanation of what the different repositories mean, that makes me feel that the "freedom" is only for a particular group who has the knowledge already, with no effort being made to assist those new to the means and methods that get used on a site like this. And that isn't much like freedom.

Re: Pls explain the different repositories?
 

Diablo is the latest operating system version for the N800 and N810. Fremantle is the current operating system version for the N900. So, use Fremantle for your Maemo 5 N900 installations. Ignore Diablo.

Re: Pls explain the different repositories?
 

Thank you for the clear explanation. It is what I had assumed, after somewhat lengthy trail-and-error investigation.

It certainly would have been nice to have seen some sort of correlation between that (again) cryptic name, and the downloads section available here onsite. Just a simple mention would have saved a lot of time and confusion in the long run.

Re: Pls explain the different repositories?
 

Certainly you should not "stay out of the repositories", but what does it have to do with freedom when beginners are told to avoid the development repository for their own good?

The only repository that beginners would actually enjoy using is listed on the N900 by default. They don't need to come here and read anything. However, if you actually start reading the development documentation, you will very quickly understand how the releases are named.

You had a good point about longer explanations and screenshots, but that's it.

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? What works where?
 

What about -testing? I would think that would be somewhat safer territory for a new user.

Maybe you could decode this for me
http://maemo.org/packages/repository/

What's the difference between free and non-free? Or i386 and armel? Should I care? I see almost-but-not-quite-the-same lists in any given repository that differs only by those suffixes. Why is that?

And thank you for yielding to my point about descriptions and screenshots. It's no small point, I feel.

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? -testing? i386? What works where?
 

Free should be software that meets Debian's definition of free (source code available and with a license permitting modification and redistribution), and non-free is anything else (still free to download, but with other restrictions).

i386 is software compiled for Intel x86 compatible processors, whereas armel is software compiled for the ARM compatible processors. The two are not compatible, so only armel packages can be installed on the N900.

Somewhat safer, yes. The only people intended to be using this are those who've read the testing instructions and are prepared to work through the testing checklist and vote for/against tested packages, ensuring that any valid packages get pushed into the standard catalogue.

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? What works where?
 

I'd like to add that i386/armel/free/non-free are not Maemo-specific, so they may not be thoroughly explained in the documentation for that reason. It's "common knowledge". Is the N900 your first Linux computer?

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? What works where?
 

Thanks Rob1n for clear, concise answers.

oldpmaguy: You don't need to worry about the packages because you're using the repository. Only appropriate packages for your device and OS will be installed as long as you don't enable inappropriate repositories. It's the reason why we encourage a clear warning with a link to the Extras-testing and Extras-devel repository wiki pages whenever someone tells users to enable one of those repos.

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? What works where?
 

Normal "end users" should not need to worry about repositories at all, for browsing around isn't the downloads section of maemo.org a good way ? The .install files (click the big green arrow) will launch the application manager and take care of the rest (or at least did when I last used them on N8x0, and then the repository problem was much larger since *many* programs we're served from the developers private repository). When you browse the downloads section with your device you will get the correct category by default and on PC it defaults to Maemo5 (since it's what the n900 runs)

There is going to be a new application manager that will talk with maemo.org downloads section (to get screenshots, reviews, and other info not available in the standard information provided by packages in the repository itself), in fact it's in the testing repo (or maybe devel) already (naturally at the moment it should only be used by people who are prepared to reflash their device in case of trouble)

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? What works where?
 

Heh. I've been using Linux on desktops, notebooks, and servers since 1993, and it wasn't until I bought an N800 in 2007 that I experienced DEBs or repositories. I'm still finding my way with them. Binary packages are...unsettling.

Really though, for general end-user use, the Application Manager hides all the mumbo jumbo well. That's why I don't know the command line tools well yet; I don't need to.

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? What works where?
 

The Codenames page on the wiki is fairly useful.

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? What works where?
 

Funny, the downloads is one of the bits round here I never did find confusing. And I joined just before Maemo 5 (fremantle) became the default view when you hit 'downloads'.

I browse the list using the linkie at the top of the whole site which says "downloads". I grant sometimes I find I'm looking at a shiney new app and wondering "What exactly does that do?" because the descriptions are sometimes so complex or advanced they go over my head. I work on the principle that if I don't understand it, I probably don't need it - at least not yet. Then when I find something I want, I simply use the n900 application manager to d/l it by name.

I do find the categories complicated - often an app is not quite where I'd expect it to be, but if I know its name, I can collect it from the 'all' list which is alphabetical.

Maybe I was lucky and took on board that 'fremantle' meant the version of Maemo that the n900 eats without noticing.

I do find the whole 'testing' business complicated: I still haven't found any formal way of giving feedback on the site, so I tend to do so either in the relevent thread on tmo or direct to the dev on IRC/twitter, since with most apps I'm testing I'm already in conversation with the people behind them.

I'm not sure what the average - certainly new - user would want with anything beyond ovi and extras, and just maybe testing. All of which are accessible via the n900 app manager.

Maybe making some connection on the front of tmo making fremantle more obvious? The previous incarnations have their year of release - fremantle just says "the current release". Given the huge surge in users, something in that description saying 'eg. n900' might resolve some of that uncertainty?

Just a suggestion.

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? What works where?
 

Yes, I suppose the N900 is my first Linux computer, though by way of decoding my username, I was an owner of an Archos PMA400, which was also a marvelous, ahead-of-its-time, multi-tasking WIFI enabled piece of Linux-based hardware.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archos_PMA400

I was never afraid to install things willy-nilly on it, and not afraid to fry/reflash; as I am (nearly) the same with my N900.

But the PMA community was very supportive, with multiple privately-hosted sites for applications-hosting, several robust forums (notably the Yahoo forum), and all of it was privately managed, i.e. independent of Archos (which pretty much washes its hands of their hardware as soon as the next generation comes out).

So while I am not completely new to the concept of an open hardware platform with a slightly higher-technical learning curve to it, I still am firmly in the camp that needs verbose explanations when it comes to things.


FWIW, I actually edited my original rant down a bit, because I thought I had put enough on my plate - but seeing as how this thread has been so lovingly relocated and renamed, I'll say one more that I feel applies to this topic here:

I really do believe that the issue I raise is a central one to the much larger debate of iPhone vs. Android vs. N900 (you know what I mean, I trust).

By making the hardware device modification/personalization so technical (I have personally never seen a forum with so much code thrown about so casually), the MAEMO/Nokia team is doing an awful lot to alienate potential customers; meanwhile, Apple and Google are going out of their way to make it easy to install and configure apps.

That means a lot to the average user. It just so happens that I have a slightly higher tolerance for discomfort, coupled with a slightly higher desire for personal freedom.

If you were to decrease mycombination of tolerance/desire down a notch or two, it seems to me you would end up with a customer that would get frustrated with the hardware's potential very quickly, and would bail out rather than do the hard work of figuring things out for themselves. After all, it's much easier to open your wallet than to open your mind.

You see my point? I hope I'm not coming off as a zealot here, but I think MAMEMO/Nokia could do a whole lot to make the user-experience a more pleasant and "seamless" one (i.e. not seeing the nuts-and-bolts side of things).

Once that hurdle was overcome, the quality of "freedom" that we all perceive in the N900 would become a commodity more easily perceptible, more easily attained, and so more treasured by the user

As it stands, it tends not to be so visible an attribute. (I think of all the cranky posts telling "I can't do this like I used to be able to do on appliance X".)

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? What works where?
 

It's Maemo not "MEAMO" (it isn't an acronym :)) and maemo.org isn't affiliated with Nokia, so the "Maemo/Nokia" team doesn't really have anything to do with the content of these forums.

If you want the easy-to-understand experience, stick to Ovi and Maemo Select. When you come to maemo.org, you're putting yourself in the deep end.

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? What works where?
 

I'm sorry to say, it's precisely that attitue that I am addressing. You know as well as I do that if Nokia was dependent on the Ovi store to promote the capabilities of the N900 - well, let's just say there wouldn't be much demand for the N900 . Maemo.org is it - the built-in application manager direcly links here. Don't be so disingenuous about the relevance of TMO to the "average" user. Also, try to avoid the superior tone, while you're at it. It's that I was adressing, too, as being a disincentive to the typical user. There is nothing about "putting yourself in the deep end" by visiting the mainstay of information regarding the OS of your phone. This
http://discussion.forum.nokia.com/forum/ is hardly a significant alternative, that I can see.

Please forgive my misspelling/misrepresentation of the brand name - call it an understandable error. As to what you're trying to imply by invoking the seperation of Nokia and Maemo, I can't folllow - Nokia depends on Maemo to do a job for them, i.e. to produce an OS that will satisfy the customer and exploit the strengths of the hardware - so if that isn't a team effort, I don't know what is.

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? What works where?
 

Installation and configuration of apps should be trivial - just run App manager, select you app, install and go.

Most of the (complicated) discussion on here is about customising bits that Nokia weren't really expecting people (and other platforms make it impossible) to customise. At the moment it's still at an early stage, with people finding new bits and pieces to tweak (and occasionally bricking their N900s in the process). Eventually, I'm sure, there'll be apps written to simplify this whole process and make it trivial for the end user to do this themselves.

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? What works where?
 

Yes, and average users don't need to do more than open up the Application manager and see the applications right there. They don't need to browse any websites to see them and don't need to worry about where they come from.

maemo.org is not a website intended to service average users, that means that there's going to be a lot of content here that isn't relevant to their interests.

What superior tone?

If you want the out-of-the-box experience, Talk isn't where you're going to end up. If you want something more, well, then it's probably worth preparing yourself to invest a bit more time and effort into the process.

Maemo is not the same thing as maemo.org. :) maemo.org is the home of the Maemo Community, Maemo is the Nokia trademark that identifies their Linux software platform. Maemo is produced by Nokia.

It seems to me that your basic premise may be a bit flawed.

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? -testing? i386? What works where?
 

Regardless of my misrepresentsation of the hierarchy of Maemo.org and Nokia, the premise remains the same.

The facts are plain; see them stated.

- Talk.maemo.org is a pre-installed bookmark in the N900 browser (as is likewise the more-frequently-than-not nonfunctioning Ovi store). It is a website encouragingly made available to all users from their first moments of use of the N900.

- By an overwhelming margin, the majority of the "out-of-the-box" downloads for the N900 come from files hosted at Maemo.org. Furthermore, they are made available to users on that site with big green "download" buttons. The web addresses built-in to the application manager tell a far more convincing story than the one you are trying to tell here.

- The Ovi store has been open for less than a month and contains four dozen free v1.0 toy applications - some of which come preinstalled on the device - and a few dozen nonsense podcasts and videos.

- Maemo Select? Five - five! - applications available for download - three of which are already hosted in the Maemo.org downloads section, one of which is preinstalled on the device. And don't leave out the Wallpapers and Themes sections - both "Coming soon"'.

No, I'm afraid I must disagree with you on all counts. Maemo.org is the proprietary source when concerned with support and development of the N900

These facts clearly cast Maemo.org as the responsible party for the user experience of installable applications. So I return to my original point - make the user experience more transparent on maemo.org, it will be to everyone's benefit. It serves no greater good to keep things archived and buried under arcane methodologies (with the exception of developmental apps and tools, of course).

And it is absurd for you to suggest that the Talk forum is for high-end users only. There is no other authoritative place for the "average N900 user", or anyone else, for that matter, to go. This is the superior tone of which I speak. There is plenty of room on these forums for the beginner and the advanced user alike. It is in no way an exclusive "deep end", although perhaps you would wish it to be so, or choose to perceive it to be such.

Despite my previous misunderstanding of the role of maemo.org, which thanks to you I now better understand to be a community forum rather than the mother-site for the maemo platform (and a proper name rather than an acronym), it still is demonstrable to me that maemo.org is the primary source for information and resources, for all N900 users, and I do not think you can prove it to be otherwise. So, my original point still stands.

And besides, from a marketing standpoint, and a cut-the-Apple-fanboys-off-at-the-knees approach, how cool would it be for the average user to be able to say, when asked "Where did you get that cool app?", with nonchalance, "Oh, it's just something I'm testing for Nokia and the Maemo platform..."

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? -testing? i386? What works where?
 

after that is done, next thing is

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? What works where?
 

amen to this. if that isn't enough, one can just shut up and dig the info....

btw oldpmaguy, do you have visited wiki?

Re: Repositories and Downloads confusing! Fremantle? Diablo? OS2008? -testing? i386? What works where?
 

oldpmaguy, I am mystified as to what you're expecting.

First off, maemo.org is not pre-installed as a bookmark in my browser: all the nokia sites (support, files etc) are there, along with maemo-select, which is another Nokia site. The maemo.org respository is enabled in the current firmware, but that doesn't actully need you to visit the site: you open 'download' and choose software from there. Plenty of happy n900 users are doing exacly that, and never setting paw round here.

Secondly, you still seem to be confusing the connection (or lack thereof) between this place and Nokia. If you are testing software from the maemo.org repos, you are testing for maemo.org or a particular dev. You are not doing anything for Nokia. They don't put software in the maemo.org repos at all. There was some testing done here for Nokia, but by a very tiny, handpicked minorty selected for trustworthiness and previous experience in testing. But that was by no means the rest of us.

This place is not Nokia. If you're looking for Nokia, you want to support forums. Yes, I know they're pretty useless - what proprietry forums aren't? This place has a slightly ambivalent connection with Nokia, not least because some of the paid employees choose to spend some of their free time here. But the folks here are volunteers. They do this for the love of it, and for fun. The services of maemo.org are not included in your contract of purchase with Nokia.

Now, helpful suggestions about improving things round here are welcome. Wholesale griping is not. And by and large you will be expected to do a chunk of searching for yourself and finding your own answers from the extensive wiki and forum knowledge base. People who come in and ask a question for which the the answer is staring them in the face are likely to get short shrift (remember, these people are volunteers - no-one is paid to be patient with you!) So complaining that you don't know what 'diablo' is, when a quick look at the 'talk' front page shows that diablo is OS 2008, so presumably not what you need isn't going to go down well - added to which you n900 (with its preinstalled repos) won't download from there unless you muck around with it. The pre-installed one directs you to the one that appropriate.

Do a bit of hunting around here. Find a few of your own answers. Read in the wiki. Then come back with your questions and you'll be met with more patience. And the first thing to learn is that this place isn't Nokia. ;)