Maintaining OS2007-770
 

folks,
Based on Carlos post, I'm just wondering, what would be the value of OS2007 on 770 if Nokia provides a ONE TIME bare bone and buggy backport and leave it to developers to fix the bugs and improve it?

We're all familiar with enhanced kernel images available on maemo.org, but these are based on a stable kernel image, so far provided by Nokia. Now, if various people pickup this UNFINISHED OS2007-770 and make their own changes, then, that notion of having a stable base is gone.

The major downside is that an application can work on some of these patched versions and fail on others, which would make it frustrating for developers (testing with multiple version) and users (their favorite apps might not work all on the same version).

It seems that if Nokia withdraws from maintaining the so called stable OS2007-770 base version, then, we, the community, need to take over; someone (or a team) need to maintain a kernel repository, receive patches (from various contributors), apply, test and release the next stable version.

Of course, people still can pickup that base and add their own favorite patches (e.g. IPv6 support) and publish them.

What do you think?

----------------
Frank

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

No hope for 770 owners, final nail to 770's coffin.

Jaaksi made new blog entry and you can read more of it from Carlos's blog.

- No consumer Os2007 update for 770
- Developer version of Os2007 for 770 will not even offer all the functions of Os2006
- Old browser on Os2007 for 770
- It is ment for developers to develop for N800 using 770
- Os2007 for 770 has audio and video problems, no gtalk voip
- They are not interested of developing it much further

Conclusions:
- Nokia is not interested of 770 users, only developers
- Nokia's interest of 770 developers is limited to their capability to develop for N800 and move to it
- Some 770 developers will propably start to use Os2007 for 770, and join N800 owners who will not be interested of developing for Os2006 any more
- Some 770 developers time will be spent porting their application to N800, instead porting N800 applications to Os2006
- Even less support, applications and patches for 770 from developers can be expected

I know there will be some developers still developing for old and busted 770 in the future and I will be grateful to them. Still it won't change the fact that every move Nokia has made is killing 770's from people not interested or capable of hacking.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

Let's not jump to conclusions.

Yes, it was always known that OS 2007 for 770 would keep the same levels of Flash & Opera, you really didn't expect differently did you? I'm still hopeful it will be useful enough for it to be a recommended install by the technical community/developers for end-users, even if Nokia can't (for understandable reasons) pitch that themselves.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

What I am worried about is the fact that developers would have to (if they want to bring their app to a wider audience) take care of the issues for, now, THREE different platforms: 770-IT2006, 770-IT2007 and N800-IT2007, not counting 770-IT2005.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

No, let's jump to conclusions. As soon as possible. If we had guessed Nokia will divide the community before all the work for Os2007 was done, maybe we could have been able to prevent it.

Developers, have no doubt about it, you with your softwares are selling majority of Internet Tablets to people. You have power. I, as an enthusiastic user, have been one of many putting forward good word about Internet Tablets.

Let's conclude Nokia will betray it's customers with N800 as it has done with 770. Let's conclude Nokia will divide Os if it will sell more Tablets and doesn't care that it will cause more and more work to developers. Let's tell to Nokia that it won't be tolerated before Nokia will put another divide to the developement budget and let's try make Nokia to put some money for Os2007/770 to it.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

That's an overreaction, Invicta. All that inflammatory rhetoric does is further antagonize people already irritated.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

I guess you there at Nokia's viral marketing and public relations department have had bad times during Nokias recent publicity flop... ;)

I'd call for developer strike if I were developer, but unfortunately it's not my place and all I can do is rant at the forums. :D

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

Your psychic powers just completely failed you.

I don't blame you. People certainly have every right to be disappointed over some of the decisions being made. But while I don't fault your feelings, I really don't think the hyperbolic ranting helps in any way whatsoever... unless it's purely a cathartic thing.

Pressure from the community acheived one concession. That in and of itself was amazing, and everyone involved should be proud of the results. And maybe, just maybe, Nokia may budge a bit more but I doubt it. They're doing less than some companies, but more than most in these circumstances. But what else will it take to make protesters happy? Will everyone stop at a stable browser? Or will Nokia have to graft a webcam and additional SD card slot onto every existing 770? Replace the processor? Seriously, at what point do we stop demanding features be retrofit onto prior devices?

Come on. Let's calm down and be realistic. The rants about the company "killing" the 770 are overblown. Mine still works. It does everything I ask of it except allow me to bank online (and that's my bank's fault). If your 770 doesn't meet your own expectations, well, that is unfortunate, and you have every right to be angry. I just think some of the complaints go way too far.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

Textrat, now, you're being dramatic. I always support respectful protest. Envicta's comments (regardless of the tone) are correct. Nokia is only interested in N800 development and is doing what they can to secure it.

We all understand the interests of a commercial company and we don't expect Nokia to be different. They have every right not to provide OS2007 on 770. But they have the obligation of fixing the bugs and improving features of OS2006.

I've talked about this in many messages, so, I don't repeat, only stating that if they sell an "Internet Tablet", then, they have to provide stable and compliant Internet experience on the device. While much improved, but still this is not the case 0n 770. For example, if fixing browser bugs on 770 means a new version of Opera (and licensing costs), then, Nokia has to do it; this is not Flash 9 upgrade. My iPod example again; Apple can state this device doesn't support WMA (as a media format), but can't say this device will sometimes play music and some other times won't.

If Nokia doesn't fix 770 bugs (on OS2006 or by providing OS2007) and we quietly accept, then, this will repeat with every new generation of Nxxx.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

Just a general question: Does the fact that there will be no ITOS2007 for the 770 mean that the OS of the 770 will not be maintained and upgraded anymore?

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

Dang.. I guess I have rely on my ability to walk through the walls (of PR people) then... ;)
You know the difference of hardware and software upgrades as everyone else knows it. There is also difference between licensed software and OS, which I think is also known by majority of readers here. No need to confuse these.
This device, beeing Internet Tablet, is propably more than any other device you have dependent of the world outside its covers. Bug fixes, security fixes, changing protocols, compatibility over the net, new features on the net - almost everything except mahjong can break on it or change. Who will fix it if it's authors have no intrest any more? I don't blame developers, but Nokia, who is accumulating unnecessary work to those who donate their time.

Just to humor you Texrat, I wonder what would be Nokias reaction, if N800 Opera would be filtered out of the Os2007 application sites and all programs would need root access and manual library installation untill Nokia makes consumer version of Os2007/770, so that access to N800 applications would effectively been limited only to developers? ;)

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

Well, in CES, Ari said Nokia is commited to providing further updates to OS2006, but their statements about not having resources and concentrating on N800 development are very discouraging.

It seems 770 owners, at best, should expect an update by end of the year, as it would have the least priority for Nokia.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

Was this said during his presentation? I haven't read any comment from Nokia sugesting new consumer Os update for 770, only something not specific about "support" and developement mailing list comment about maybe realesing Os2006 update for developers.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

You have to be kidding me...

The 770 was the begining of the platform, it was fairly anemic in terms of processor power and memory... It was an amazing start, but I was never really content with its performance. With these mobile processor platforms, there is usually a lot of changes between revisions. It's not like they went from a 250mhz to a 300mhz Pentium II. The dsp and graphics accellerator have changed, they added an FPU and a camera.... all the apps seem to need specific optimizations for these chips and it makes sense to me that they would have to dump support for the older hardware. Yes it sucks, but I really don't expect them to pull direct x or core video out of their asses yet =p That kind of stuff takes years to develop, and I imagine within a few hardware revisions we can expect the cross platform support ya'll are looking for.

I love my N800, sorry if I sound like an *** kisser but I'm willing to buy their new hardware if it means constant advancement and compatibility.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

Os2007 can work on 770 and is already working on it. It's just about whether or not Nokia will make work good enough for consumers. It's not about hardware, it is about API's and compatibility.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

I fail to see the drama in my post. By all means, enlighten me so I can work on reducing it.

I have no problem with Invicta's sentiments at all. I just think his response (and that of others) is a bit hyperbolic. Does he have some legitimate concerns? Absolutely. Do I agree 100% with the direction Nokia is taking here? Nooo, and I've made that clear. I just don't see what good will come out of bashing. Respectful protest? I'm right there with ya. Reactionary invective? You lost me.

Oh, and for the record and in general: I'm nowhere close to PR. One poster here guessed my role in all of this, but I ain't acknowledging it. :p

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

I'm aware of that... But if the first hardware platform wasn't mature enough to handle them well, that may be enough reason for Nokia to move on to the N800. The 770 was their first attempt. I'm willing to give them another shot at it, the maemo platform is pretty incredible and in just 1 year its much superior to windows mobile and palm (at least in my opinion).

Edit: Lol and if anyone sounds like PR it would probably be me... But I'm just a gadget slut =)

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

Eh, just ignore me. I wouldn't say anything on this subject except that the sheer level and amount of griping has overloaded me. Sorry.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

Texrat, Envicta complained about OS2007 and 770 (software) and you compared it with demanding hardware upgrades on 770; that's why I said you're being dramatic.

I also don't need to guess your role (I've read that tread); IMHO, regardless of your job, you're a user and can have your opinion.

Nevertheless, I consider Nokia responsible for fixing OS2006 bugs; we didn't get our devices for free and having a stable and functional kernel+applications is a legitimate expectation.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

Judging by the postings from Carlos and Markku, the OS2007 port to the 770 seems to be going well and without too many major issues.

I would like to think that if the port is successful, Nokia may consider supporting OS2007 on the 770 in tandem with the N800 as equal partners. After all, it should be possible to maintain the OS2007 kernel and most of the drivers without too much difficulty, a few #ifdefs here and there, and make OS 2007 on 770 a mainstream release. Nobody is (or should be) expecting updates to the closed-source code, but Nokia should have the skill/foresight to write code that can support both devices without too much effort.

If full support for the 770 were then dropped following the release of the "N900", I would be happy with that.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

Ok, fair enough. Nailed me on that one. But in all seriousness, it would be nice to see the critical components of What Constitutes Enough.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

I use the browser mainly for reading news (e.g. BBC, Slashdot...) and Maemo related sites, oh, plus GMail. It crashes, as soon as it gets overwhelmed by content (heck sometimes dies on Application Catalogue on Maemo) and causes reboot. It also doesn't allow me to work with my calendar on Google.

I consider these to be part of core functions that my device should provide (for the 1000th time, as an Internet Tablet).

I don't want a new Toyota, SD slot, new roads or whatever analogy you guys are coming up with; just a reliable and functional Internet experience.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

I haven't encountered crashes on those sites, so hence my perplexed state. Gmail works perfectly. I have, however, encountered much bugginess on AppMan as I've reported here (no reboots, just failure to refresh). Strangely, it straightened out a while back. Someone told me AppMan is sensitive to bad repositories and one *might* interfere with overall functionality. No idea if that is correct or not.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

Repositories that do not respond will cause AppMan to fail to update - this is a pain, as quite a few non-Nokia sites go down and you then have to identify which one from the log and disable it, and then re-enable it some time later when it is back online. It would be far better if AppMan could ignore repositories that are down without bugging the user and failing to update.

Re: Maintaining OS2007-770
 

Bingo! Now THAT I call a bug. It's UI Design 101: NO HARD FAILS.