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-   -   Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33 (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=45907)

jorjino 2010-02-26 07:14
Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Yesterday I found this information about the last version of Linux Kernel 2.6.33.

It is interesting for me - has Maemo/MeeGo compatibility at this moment with Linux Kernel 2.6.33?
And is it so important?

Thank you in advance to all participants.
Regards.

jorjino 2010-02-26 11:54
Re: Android does not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Anyone????

SubCore 2010-02-26 11:58
Re: Android does not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
what do you mean, "compatibility"?

if you want, you probably could build a custom environment with the newest kernel, here's an explanation how to do that.

but you won't see this kernel in the "official" rootfs-package by nokia anytime soon.

why do you need it, anyways?

jorjino 2010-02-26 12:05
Re: Android does not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Well, I am not a linux developer or geek, but the info about non compatibility between Android and Linux Kernel was the thing which is interesting for me.

Also because of another info I got that Android is becoming not so close to Linux as Maemo is.

Regards.

Ignacius 2010-02-26 12:09
Re: Android does not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Only thing is the Linux kernel as of version 2.6.33 has dropped the Android source code it had because Google nor anyone wasn't maintaining it. There isn't any "compatibility" thing on this.

SubCore 2010-02-26 12:28
Re: Android does not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
well, handheld devices are highly integrated, meaning the kernel and it's modules have to match the used hardware very closely. so it's much more difficult to upgrade a kernel on those.

and yes, android is not a real linux, most of the code there is run in a java VM, called "darvik". maemo on the other hand provides most of the "real" linux GNU components, like gnu libc, gnu make, x.org and so on.

tekplay 2010-02-26 19:10
Re: Android does not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jorjino (Post 547426)
Well, I am not a linux developer or geek, but the info about non compatibility between Android and Linux Kernel was the thing which is interesting for me.

Also because of another info I got that Android is becoming not so close to Linux as Maemo is.

Regards.
Some Info..
http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/andro...-problems.html

ogahyellow 2010-02-26 19:22
Re: Android does not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubCore (Post 547468)
well, handheld devices are highly integrated, meaning the kernel and it's modules have to match the used hardware very closely. so it's much more difficult to upgrade a kernel on those.

and yes, android is not a real linux, most of the code there is run in a java VM, called "darvik". maemo on the other hand provides most of the "real" linux GNU components, like gnu libc, gnu make, x.org and so on.
Isn't Linux a kernel, so Linux is Linux? And Android isn't using the kernel? So by that definition is embedded Linux not Linux because it doesn't provide the tools?

Please help me out...

wmarone 2010-02-26 19:35
Re: Android does not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogahyellow (Post 548065)
Isn't Linux a kernel, so Linux is Linux? And Android isn't using the kernel? So by that definition is embedded Linux not Linux because it doesn't provide the tools?

Please help me out...
It has been said that "Android is not Linux" and this is largely true as Android, and all the value it provides, is given by the Dalvik JVM. There's no reason you couldn't port Dalvik to Symbian, WinMo, iPhone OS, etc.

As such, Android's use of the Linux kernel is purely incidental. It provides no libraries or utilities commonly found on Linux systems beyond Busybox. The only way to get access to the Linux based subsystem is via the NDK, use of which Google discourages as there is no guarantee your software will run on all Android devices (not that there's any guarantee now, but still.)

ogahyellow 2010-02-26 19:48
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Got it, I think. Somewhat akin to porting Qt to an unsupported platform like Solaris?

SubCore 2010-02-26 20:07
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
the distinction is between "Linux" and "GNU/Linux".

technically, "Linux" is just the kernel, that is correct, but usually when people talk about "Linux" they talk about distributions such as Ubuntu, Fedora or Debian, and that includes the GNU part of things as well.

saying something runs "Linux" implies that you can use the same software tools to write and compile software for it, giving you access to a huge amount of open code. but it just isn't true. Google does this intentionally, fraudulent advertising IMO.

you need completely different tools and libraries to write for a completely different environment. you don't write "Linux" programs... you're as far away from the kernel as you can get.

so yes, in my eyes, Android definitely isn't Linux. With Maemo you get nearly all of the standard Linux parts there are.

SubCore 2010-02-26 20:14
Re: Android does not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tekplay (Post 548046)
thanks for that read!

didn't even know how bad it is already... if they fork their own kernel, they can not call it Linux anymore.

david.hicks 2010-02-27 16:08
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
It's more than the difference in user space. Google wrote a bunch of extensions to the standard kernel. The kernel developers consider these either badly implemented or unnecessary.

On top of that, Google presented the extras and said "there you are, they're finished" and refused to make any changes. The usual way to get stuff into the kernel is to work with the kernel team to get the code into a state they consider complete and suitable.

So the stuff was dropped, there is a technical and a political argument and the net result is that 'official' kernel from kernel.org cannot run underneath android.

I don't know how this would affect things like the dalvik VM. A guy at ubuntu made some progress porting the android and dalvik framework to more generic linux systems, but in the end google have still got a lot of closed source stuff on there that makes the system worthwhile - for instance all the stuff that enables login to google services.

Flandry 2010-02-27 21:00
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by david.hicks (Post 548959)
but in the end google have still got a lot of closed source stuff on there that makes the system worthwhile - for instance all the stuff that enables login to google services.
And there's the rub. It wasn't clear to many people how much the wool was over their eyes about the "linux phone OS" called Android. I first realized it when the cease and desist was sent to that guy (cyanogen?) who was doing mods. It wasn't the C&D, but the realization that without the google specific bits android is completely worthless as a phone OS, and that Google is absolutely not opening up that part of it, that soured me on going Android. This is just the other shoe dropping on the google Android-is-linux propaganda.

u2maemo 2010-02-27 21:29
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
refusing Android and waiting for device with real linux kernel is my choice.

OranAgra 2010-03-01 20:30
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
I wrote an article in an effort to educate consumers of the faults and inherent problems of Android (among others).
I'll refer you to the thread where i posted it.
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=46227

joelee 2010-03-12 23:07
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jorjino (Post 547072)
Yesterday I found this information about the last version of Linux Kernel 2.6.33.

It is interesting for me - has Maemo/MeeGo compatibility at this moment with Linux Kernel 2.6.33?
And is it so important?

Thank you in advance to all participants.
Regards.

Sorry to barge in you guys like this.

I'm an Android user and found this tread while googling Android & Linux.

I just wanted to point out the title of this tread is misleading. I am currently running a custom kernel 2.6.33 on my Nexus One. Android 2.1 runs happily on top of it. I can also run several linux programs outside of Android, like openvpn, rsync and dropbear (a ssh server).

Code:
# cat build.prop | grep ro.product.model
ro.product.model=Nexus One
# uname -a
Linux localhost 2.6.33-msm-teknologist-0.7 #1 PREEMPT Wed Mar 3 14:13:12 CET 2010 armv7l GNU/Linux
#
My point here is Android devices are as "Linux" as Maemo devices, but Android applications are more restricted to access the Linux layer than Maemo.

I like Maemo (still have my N700 since 2005), but I do not like the idea that only Nokia is releasing devices on Maemo. It is positive news on Maemo merging into Meego, and hopeful we'll get more powerful devices from more companies. That is the main criteria that will convinced me to switch.

Anyway, good luck with this forum, and I hope to return when I start to use Meego/Maemo again.

Joe.

u2maemo 2010-03-13 02:37
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
hope to know when using Kernel 2.6.33, if libc6 and coreutils can be upgraded to latest one.

SubCore 2010-03-15 11:12
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelee (Post 565573)
My point here is Android devices are as "Linux" as Maemo devices, but Android applications are more restricted to access the Linux layer than Maemo.
cyanogenmod isn't android.
while it's great that it provides some of the GNU userland so you can run openvpn etc., you are talking about a custom OS which you flash on your device to have the gnu tools.
so it's not a valid argument to say that android can run (gnu) linux software, because those tools and libs are not part of android.

joelee 2010-03-15 13:37
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubCore (Post 567630)
cyanogenmod isn't android.
while it's great that it provides some of the GNU userland so you can run openvpn etc., you are talking about a custom OS which you flash on your device to have the gnu tools.
so it's not a valid argument to say that android can run (gnu) linux software, because those tools and libs are not part of android.
The title of this discussion is "Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33" and it is not an argument if Android is Linux.

SubCore is right when Android context is the Software platform. The Android platform in NOT Linux (as Java is not Linux), but the fact is Android runs on top of a Linux kernel and it needs a strip-down Linux environment to operate. This makes my Android device a Linux device. I can get access to my Bash shell, I can cross-compile linux kernel, applications, tools and libs on my desktop and run it on my Android device. I can then call my linux layer from my Android application:

Code:
Process exeCommands = Runtime.getRuntime().exec("/system/xbin/run_script.sh");
On that note, I still stand-by my points:

1) Android devices are as "Linux" as Maemo devices (Notice the keyword here is "devices")
2) Android applications are more restricted to access the Linux layer than Maemo (Android apps is comparable to Java apps on the desktop, and Maemo apps to glibc/X libs/gtk apps)
3) Android is compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33 (I'm running it now)
Some points for us to ponder:
  • Does the normal user care if Android is Linux or not?
  • As a mobile developer, do I choose a platform that has bigger user-base (and earn me more money), or do I choose a platform that I think has a bigger bragging rights as "pure" Linux platform?
  • Maemo has 5 years head-start of Android. Would Android exists if Nokia had "MeeGo-ed" Maemo back then?


Joe.


P.S. I'm not running Cynogen's mod

steev182 2010-03-15 13:41
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
That's the thing, the Android kernel is now a fork of the Linux kernel. That means that it isn't as much a Linux device is as Maemo devices are.

SubCore 2010-03-15 13:46
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelee (Post 567768)
On that note, I still stand-by my points:

1) Android devices are as "Linux" as Maemo devices (Notice the keyword here is "devices")
2) Android applications are more restricted to access the Linux layer than Maemo (Android apps is comparable to Java apps on the desktop, and Maemo apps to glibc/X libs/gtk apps)
3) Android is compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33 (I'm running it now)
yes, as i said before, technically you are right, "Linux" is just the kernel.

what i'm critizising is the fact that the way google is advertising android, you'd think you get the whole "linux" deal, which is not the case.

anyways, you are right, this isn't the thread for such a discussion. let's see when and if google ever reintegrate their modifications into the mainline kernel.

smoku 2010-03-15 14:16
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by david.hicks (Post 548959)
I don't know how this would affect things like the dalvik VM. A guy at ubuntu made some progress porting the android and dalvik framework to more generic linux systems, but in the end google have still got a lot of closed source stuff on there that makes the system worthwhile - for instance all the stuff that enables login to google services.
These are the parts I personally consider completely unnecessary ;-)

Could you give some pointers to that Dalvik VM Ubuntu port?

Bratag 2010-03-15 14:19
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Personally I feel we would be far better off looking at something like

http://www.myriadgroup.com/Media-Cen...O-ANDROID.aspx

Rather than trying to port all of android to the N900 etc.

smoku 2010-03-15 14:38
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratag (Post 567820)
Personally I feel we would be far better off looking at something like

http://www.myriadgroup.com/Media-Cen...O-ANDROID.aspx
Do you have any idea of Myriad licensing?
There isn't much interest for us in it, unless it is open.

Bratag 2010-03-15 14:50
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoku (Post 567843)
Do you have any idea of Myriad licensing?
There isn't much interest for us in it, unless it is open.
unsure at this stage. It was more the possibility of us coming up with our own Dalvik replacement I was trying to get across. I will email them however and find out.

smoku 2010-03-15 15:01
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Replacing Dalvik for the sake of replacing is not really viable goal. ;)
Dalvik itself is pretty fine.

DaveP1 2010-03-15 15:56
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
First, I will point out that Google has responded by saying Android is “no more [a fork] than Red Hat Enterprise Linux or any other distribution vendor. All kernels are in some way a fork for some amount of time, the trick is keeping that delta small. We’re trying to do a better job of keeping a small delta.”

http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=5992

Whatever.

But reading this thread, I am confused about the use of the kernel in smartphone OSs. My question is, if I ferret around in the Nexus One's Andriod 2.1 and the N900's Maemo 5 will I find:

a) both Android 2.1 and Maemo 5 contain the Linux Kernel 2.6.33
b) only Maemo 5 contains the Linux Kernel 2.6.33
c) only Android 2.1 contains the Linux Kernel 2.6.33
d) neither Android 2.1 and Maemo 5 contain the Linux Kernel 2.6.33

Pick one.

Bratag 2010-03-15 16:02
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smoku (Post 567871)
Replacing Dalvik for the sake of replacing is not really viable goal. ;)
Dalvik itself is pretty fine.
Except that its closed source and slower than a molasses shower.

smoku 2010-03-15 16:06
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratag (Post 567960)
Except that its closed source [...]
???
And what is that: http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/dalvik.git ?

Texrat 2010-03-15 16:08
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SubCore (Post 567779)
what i'm critizising is the fact that the way google is advertising android, you'd think you get the whole "linux" deal, which is not the case.
I find this interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android...)#cite_note-93

;)

tso 2010-03-15 19:43
Re: Android is not compatible with Linux Kernel 2.6.33
 
we should not forget that android is a import, one that got started by the same guy that started danger, and whos products android shares many design elements with (the biggest being the use of java as the base programming language).


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