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-   -   Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS) (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=46249)

gerbick 2010-08-19 06:31
Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmurfin87 (Post 791370)
Meego will not by itself prevent users from upgrading their devices to their hearts content. Hardware vendors, however, MAY/WILL. Primarily through the same way the n900 is hobbled: closed device drivers.
Well... I can see that as being the ultimate truth; however after going from the "most open" device that is less than (according to STSkeeps) 50% open and no upgrade path despite being real open... I'd rather err on the side of caution and ask as opposed to assume. I don't mind being wrong; however in this case, I'm asking to see what's planned.

Quote:
Since the Meego API should largely remain the same, there shouldn't in theory be any reason that a driver, closed source or not, would be tied to any specific version of Meego. In theory.
One would hope. And by that... I mean I truly hope you are right.

Quote:
That means if you can get the binary for the driver, you can use it to install the latest and greatest Meego. Whether you'll get all the possible features will depend on the feature and the driver.
And that's where my question skirts the obvious and rather would know what are the planned upgrade path per released device as opposed to worrying about the drivers - been there, done that and honestly a lot of them can be circumvented and/or repurposed for use - like qwerty12 had done with his last app.

Asking about the drivers will probably result in a non-answer, so let's ask about what is being touted the most - the openness of the platform and the direction(s) it could mean for each released device in terms of a MeeGo product.

I for one don't see a real problem with 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and so forth to be loaded onto a device ad inifinitum - thus bringing us closer to a portable and updateable computer - but in this case, nobody knows for sure what Nokia has in store and what they think of their Linux Foundation connection. I'm running Ubuntu 10.04 on a machine that once ran Slackware 4.0.

That's an upgrade path I cannot argue against. Having that kind of flexibility on my MeeGo device would require Nokia to think in those same terms.

Instead of "hoping", I'm asking.

abill_uk 2010-08-19 06:39
Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by timoph (Post 791374)
Please don't do this to yet another thread. I really don't see any reason to get offensive so please calm down. Also please read the text behind the link that qgil provided. If there's something in there that you don't understand or agree with please ask politely and you will be answered politely and this won't turn into a another flame war and abusing thread (that people with knowledge and expertise tend to stay away from).

FYI: MeeGo is not a Nokia project, it's a Linux Foundation project. Also it's not aimed to some specific device, it's a mobile OS for a wide range of devices.
Yes it is a Linux project but the problem is Nokia will control the foundation merely by the fact of what they will alow to be open and not, that was my point and directed at Nokia not Qgil but he is a Nokian so i guess he falls in that bracket but not directly obvioulsy as he is only a small cog.

danramos 2010-08-19 07:03
Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by abill_uk (Post 791397)
Yes it is a Linux project but the problem is Nokia will control the foundation merely by the fact of what they will alow to be open and not, that was my point and directed at Nokia not Qgil but he is a Nokian so i guess he falls in that bracket but not directly obvioulsy as he is only a small cog.
Well, no. They can't control the source or foundation, but they can control how it appears on their own products. My fear is that they will repeat their history, Intel might lose interest and, in the end, MeeGo dies on the vine before it even gets a fair chance to show itself off. I really hope Nokia improves and learned from their past mistakes, but I'm still quite cynical about those chances.

fms 2010-08-19 07:27
Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by buurmas (Post 551806)
THIS thread is looking ahead to MeeGo. Will things get better going forward?
No, they will not.

lma 2010-08-19 07:57
Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qgil (Post 791324)
The MeeGo project makes a new release every 6 months. Each release is supported with full maintenance for a year and then for emergency fixes for a second year.

http://wiki.meego.com/Release_Engine...lease_Timeline
Ok, that makes perfect sense for the netbook variant. When a new release arrives you just upgrade your computer (just as one does with distributions like Fedora or Ubuntu that have similar release cycles, BAU).

Will the same be possible Nokia MeeGo handheld devices? Ie, will someone buying the MeeGo-Harmattan device this fall be able to upgrade to the spring 2011, fall 2011 and so on releases as they come along? It's not the end of the world if that means going to "vanilla" MeeGo and losing the Nokia differentiation.

johnel 2010-08-19 07:57
Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 
I'm hoping we all being a bit paranoid and a bit cynical (which is understandable).

As far as I understand there will be an "official" Meego release every 6 months starting from October (e.g. Meego 1.1). In between official releases anyone can download, compile and package their own "developer" or "unstable" release - this release will not be official.

Something similar like a Linux kernel release, or Xorg and gnome platform for example.

I imagine that Nokia will time new hardware releases to coincide with official Meego releases - something like Debian, Ubuntu & gnome.

If you are technically-minded you keep a rolling-release cutting-edge version running on your device.
Otherwise you would wait for an official release then run it on your device.

Each release build on the previous while keeping compatibility.

The problem will be the closed-source drivers. If at some point a change in Meego is made (e.g. a new version of the kernel) which renders the closed-source driver incompatible.

(ATI deeming cards legacy and not supporting them in later versions of their closed-driver)


But as this is Nokia I would not expect too much common-sense.

HangLoose 2010-08-19 08:30
Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 791358)
So... could you commit to answering this question. Are you stating that each release means a new device, or will you allow 1.1 to be updated to 1.2 on the same machine and state it in terms that other vendors have stated in their upgrade paths?

I hate to use Apple as an example, but they've stood by their update pattern of 3 "major" revisions of their OS (ex. iOS 1.0 to 2.0 to 3.0) per device and all iterations therein are considered inclusive (ex. iOS 2.1, 2.2, 2.3.1 are "minor" revisions).

And how are the major revisions handled in MeeGo? Would 1.1 a major revision over 1.0, or would it be a minor revision (a dot increase)?

So to recap, what are the upgrade patterns for the upcoming MeeGo device, will it get support for that next 6 month iteration you've mentioned at least once, would it get a fully supported OS update to the next two iterations (1 year) or what?

Care to clarify what's known/unknown as it applies to each machine in terms of when it comes out and how many updates it will get; or are we looking at a single release, any updates we get for the OS are within those next six months and then looking forward to a new OS release (think: Maemo 5 to MeeGo and it will not be official, only community based support)?

Thanks in advance.
+1. This sums up everything I want to know.
qgil?

tswindell 2010-08-19 08:33
Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 
@johnel

The drivers would need to be compiled with any new kernel release. This will hopefully be achieved with the autobuilder for those closed components. Nokia have the source for the closed blobs and have set up a system to continuously build the closed blobs and make them available for us to use.

When compilation breaks, hopefully these drivers can be fixed. The biggest problem will be API incompatible with new kernel versions and the closed components.

attila77 2010-08-19 08:33
Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 791358)
So to recap, what are the upgrade patterns for the upcoming MeeGo device, will it get support for that next 6 month iteration you've mentioned at least once, would it get a fully supported OS update to the next two iterations (1 year) or what?
What qgil said has nothing to do with this. Product support is one thing and MeeGo as a standalone project is another. He specifically didn’t speak about upgrades, but API compatibility. IIUC It’s pretty much the same situation as Android, Google won’t ship you a 2.2 image for a HTC Hero - that would have been HTC’s job, but then again Motorola did that for the Droid. MeeGo as such won’t (and can’t) guarantee what the future plans of the vendor will be (unless upgradeability actually becomes part of the MeeGo compliance program, which is unlikely).

EDIT: And an important note about Apple. They are working by the rule of precedent - not to dismiss the track record, but those weren’t guaranteed upgrades, you assume 2 major upgrades because that was the practice during the last release, not because it has been announced previously (i.e. they announce on OS release what PREVIOUS devices will get it, not what FUTURE upgrades this device will get).

abill_uk 2010-08-19 08:42
Re: Will MeeGo finally end the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome (ROS)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tswindell (Post 791495)
@johnel

The drivers would need to be compiled with any new kernel release. This will hopefully be achieved with the autobuilder for those closed components. Nokia have the source for the closed blobs and have set up a system to continuously build the closed blobs and make them available for us to use.

When compilation breaks, hopefully these drivers can be fixed. The biggest problem will be API incompatible with new kernel versions and the closed components.
There you go it is still all about uncertainty and if's, why oh why can Nokia not do something right for us !?.


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