Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Fortunately that has never happened nor will it happen here.

Those two concepts do not stand on equal footing.

The former is codified in law based originally on sound, good intentions. Sadly, many people confuse bad implementations with the core concept and use their naivete to rationalize improper responses.

The latter is pure subjective opinion based on an individual's income, lifestyle and comfort zone.

We have the power to change things, but the majority chooses the easy way out rather than acting collectively to effect change. Every instance of piracy, IP violation, or what have you, is an instance of undermining efforts toward true solutions that benefit us all. If we instead acted collectively, we could force the out-of-touch powers that be into submission-- or even extinction.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

I try to snip longer paragraphs when agreeing.. but this just merited repeating since there is no thanks button.

This post, especially the bolded part, is the most sense made in the last several pages of this thread.

I have no doubt in my mind that if everyone who has ever used a P2P, torrent, or Pirated any software were to work together on a specific solution or goal.. that they would have a high success rate in changing companies.

Unfortunately... that requires work. Laziness is so much more appealing :D..


(in seriousness: It's more that, if you gathered everyone that ever pirated software and put them in a room you're not likely to get just a single, actual agreement of anything out of all of them - even with regards to why they pirated in the first place.)

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

So I heard Google and HTC made a multi touch available on Android phone and some fruit company is trying to get a big bag of their money for violating some IP crap.... or did I miss the part of the thread where we already agreed that using your IP is bad, but using big bad corp IP is good? Otherwise explain me silly how patent for such a basic thing even came to existence.

Sometimes you can not make a your own app to do the same thing as commercial, because they did their paperwork and own patents even for a way to swipe your ***. Example is bnetd.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Damn.. so much for my cheering blizzard for making their WoW installer downloadable.

That's a bunch of crap right there... IMHO of course.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Client is free as long as it brings them more customers, besides to be perfectly honest you still need to buy a game and subscription after trial. Nevertheless I'm willing to pay for a service they provide still.

In bnetd case they argued it doesn't check serial key upon connection, however when asked to provide api for that they refused, which stinks )

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Hell, I still pay for my WoW subscription even though I gave up on hardcore raiding and left the game for good(?) back in july 2009...
That´s how great I find that game so i´m even stupid enough to still pay for just to be able to log on if i get the urge.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

I don't think people should be able to patent ideas. They should be able to patent products. If someone writes a free flash from scratch.. adobe shouldn't be able to sue them for that. Even if it is compatible with Adobe's flash.

Ideas should be free for anyone to use and expand upon.. making them better and better.

Take the multi-touch for example... I do not think anyone should be able to hold a patent on simply "multi-touch".

They can patent the iphone itself.. the product itself.. and if anyone makes an identical iphone and sticks their name on it.. THEN go after them.. but just because a different phone happens to have multi-touch as well shouldn't be illegal.

Bnetd was written completely from scratch in my understanding.. If the code was stolen or directly copied from blizzard that would be one thing: But a complete, personal write of a code from those developers should not be illegal.

People should be able to code whatever they want.

Sometimes.. there is only 1 way to code something.. and also some code is freely published and available in books, websites, etc.. so SOME of the source code may look similar to blizzards... but there should be some kind of limit.. Source code must match X% in order to be called infringement of anything.

Monopolizing ideas is a bad idea that the US seems to have latched onto.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

You don't seem to understand that the spirit of open source is not about price, it's about freedom. Even the GNU project encourages developers to charge for their software to raise funds for development

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

My opinion is (and was, when I worked for a software company for eight years) that piracy has a certain utility for commercial interests and it is tolerated to a certain extent.

If you are selling software, you want a lot of people to try it, and you don't initially care whether they get it legitimately or not. What you care about is whether you eventually make money by selling it to the former piraters and their friends.

Much early software went under because it was too difficult to pirate and too expensive. When software came along that was easier to pirate (example: WordPerfect), it exploded in popularity. This is because people are never going to pay big bucks for a product they have no experience with. Once they have tried it and perceive its advantages, then they will consider paying for it.

Someone trying to sell software should find a way to get it to people, then make it increasingly inconvenient to upgrade without paying, while offering better and better features. Some pirates will find ways to continue getting it for free, but most people will find piracy too much hassle and will decide to pay.

And if you want to know which software is best, ask a pirate. That's because pirates don't care about the pricetag on the software and they tend to try everything. People who have to pay big bucks for software don't tend to buy lots of software and then use a small amount of it that they find works best. They take a guess and stay with a small number of programs.

So, commercial interests like piracy, but never admit it. It gives them a moral and financial way to intimidate users into paying for something they wouldn't have paid for in the past.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

I know that very well, that's why I didn't feel comfortable comparing free software to a bicycle and added ", I guess".

Well I thought I could say this anyway, probably because I was thinking about the old time when I was using linux although it didn't even have any real X desktop.

But indeed : free software is about freedom, not money. You're right to insist on that.

Let me add however that a bicycle has some common points with free software, because it is mainly a public domain designed device. Two wheels, some pedals, and other stuffs I don't know the english words for. All of this is the product of some inventors and is now general public knowledge.

Also, even if GNU developpers may charge for their software, it is impossible for them to forbid redistribution. So, ultimately free software always has good chances to be found free or charge, somewhere.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

i was fighting lack of sleep when i wrote what you're referring to haha. and i agree, people do confuse bad implementations with the core concept. an example would be communism.

however, my argument is not that copyright is bad, instead, its that copyright has gotten out of hand in regard to what should be allowed to be copyrighted, for how long and fair use.

the entertainment industries want a more and more restricted way of providing content, to the point of you having no control of how the content you purchase is delivered/utilized. and they want this control to be indefinite. they don't care about our view of things, they're a business and business is about money. this is why a good concept like copyright is being abused.

perhaps i used a term that is too in-general. when i say we pay too much for things i mean that we are ridiculously over charged. in the context of online piracy, should you pay $20 for a DVD that costs pennies to be mass-produced or download the "DVD" for free? its a moral and philosophical dilemma involving the current state of our civilization.

while it might sound silly saying this about a DVD or music or software, it doesn't sound silly at all when you realize this problem also applies to food, health care, education.

copyright is just another thing they abuse to get as much money as they can out of you.

and more to think about, when does copyright become censorship?

the following quote is funny but very true

i'm not suggesting that we abolish capitalism. should we one day figure out how best to live without it (like riding a bike without training wheels, aka the rich, to drag us down), the world will obviously benefit greatly, until then, we should recognize capitalism's problems and compensate for them.

if content was available at very close to the costs needed to originally produce it and ridiculous controls weren't placed on that content, piracy would be, or close to, non existent.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

You are basically saying everyone here may or will download your app illegally instead of paying. Nice one.

What popular phone/gaming/desktop platform other than Sony PS3 that doesn't have piracy???
iPhone? Symbian? Windows Mobile? I see them as being much worse than N900 for piracy.

You can create all the protection/drm etc you want, it will get cracked "if" what you produce is "good enough".
If it is a bad piece of software, even if it's distributed freely, no one will download it and use it. Actually, noone will even bother to crack it.

So the main point you should worry is whether your software is "good enough" that people are willing to support you and pay for. You will always end up with people who try to get it for free if you make an useful app. But that also means you will be earning money from those who like to support you. So all in all, application first has to be good.

Microsoft Windows might be one of the most pirated software in the world on the worst platform for piracy = PC. But they are still damn rich aren't they?

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

yes, i love this forum...just had bad experiences in others....try bringing up a topic referring to anything even remotely near *whispers* Nintendo 64 emulation, and the most bored, living in their basement on their computer, life-less members of a forum descend like wolves to tell you how stupid you are, no matter what you say. i haven't experienced that here at maemo.org yet, thankfully.

i agree completely, apple is ridiculous. Should wearing two gloves instead of one be patented?

apple didn't invent multi-touch, they were simply the first to implement it. if apple can patent multi-touch, IBM should patent computing in-general and sue everybody. hell, i'm going to go out and patent reality and get astronomically rich.

honestly, i wish there were a simple answer to the question in the title of this thread. i think there is wrongdoing at both ends of the spectrum.

i just suggest if you make great software for any of the nokia tablets for example, make it a reasonable price (less than $50 unless its something related to development or is a client that provides an online service, which then have different levels of subscription). consider making older versions free, consider a free basic version, etc.

if you make something REALLY Good, but make it REALLY crippled functionally or with overbearing copy protections and give it a ridiculous price, (you probably made the iphone) and you are asking for piracy.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Debate continuing from wifi driver thread:

No, the creator still has a right to ask a price of their choosing. I can choose not to pay it however.

Perhaps you're unaware, but there are places called libraries that have books for free, where they can be read, and the author doesn't get a dime. If I borrow a book or a CD from a friend then that is ok, while the creator still doesn't get paid.

That doesn't make any sense. Hookers provide a (valuable :P) service. They have to provide it separately and uniquely to every john, so they get paid for every instance. The pleasure a hooker provides can't be copied from one person to others. (Unless they like to watch:P) Software, on the other hand, can be.

So by that rationale I can put up my 1980 Pinto for sale for $1M, and then I have a $1M-worth Pinto? Try going into a bank to get a loan secured by your car or house. I'm pretty sure they won't be going by the value that *you* put on those things.

The bottom line is that I'm not taking a good. Theft requires a change of possession/location/control of a good, and there is none in piracy. It's like me owning a vase, a teapot, and bowl. I can put those objects in my house wherever I want and however I want. I also own my computer, I own it's hard disk, and all those millions of ferromagnetic particles that it uses to store data, I own those too. And thus I can arrange them in whatever way I want. Saying that I can't arrange my hard disk however I want is exactly like you coming over and saying I can't put my teapot on a shelf between the vase and bowl, because you had those items arranged that same way first.

It's up to them to figure a way to eat. What I provided are some examples. I'm not contradicting anything. It's like the lawn mowing example I used earlier. If someone does work for you out of the blue they have no right to be paid, even if you find it useful. If you agree prior to starting the work that there will be payment, then that's how they eat.

Work that should be paid is work that was agreed to be paid for. It is wise to obtain this agreement before the work is started. If someone creates a work without such agreement, they have to assume the risk that nobody will want to pay for it.

?? Quite the jump there, not sure how you did that one.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Regarding the claims of validity of clickwrap EULAs and similar "agreements"; it is relativelly easy to hack the installer on disk, or the web page as displayed by your browser, or the contents of RAM or video memory while the "agreement" is being displayed, and change the terms of the agreement or replace the text on the "I Agree" button by somthing like "I Do Not Agree"; they can never prove you really signed the same contract they originally wrote or that you signed saying you agree instead of saying you don't or somthing else.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Regardless of the logical excuses or legal reasonings employed to avoid paying for software license/copy, i've found that those who sidestep paying for said digital goods are mostly those who cannot afford to pay for said software.

They don't do it purely out of principles.

This begs the question, whether the logic came before (principle) or after (excuse) the action? The human mind is known to be very very good to do the latter (rationalization).

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Perhaps you are the one who is unaware. Authors do get paid for people reading their works in libraries in many countries (Canada, the United Kingdom, all the Scandinavian countries, Germany, Austria, Belgium, the Netherlands, Israel, Australia, and New Zealand) - it's called Public Lending Rights and it's source of incoming for the author long after the book is out of print.

You can read about it on the internets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Lending_Right

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

I'm probably gonna get blasted after my comment but here goes...lol.
I fully support piracy. I encourage it actually. I trully feel bad for the lone developper trying to make his living out of it but I do not support the monetary system. No software/application/program should ever be sold and/or bought. After all, you create these in order to help/assist/make life easier for other people no? So to me doesn't make sense to charge. I'm mostly talking about huge corporations here.
This to me does not make any sense at all. If you charged me pennies for a dvd then fine, I would accept it, but 20$ is illogical. All because of the monetary system (aka our civilization).
A true painter would paint from the heart.
A true musician would create music for the fun of it.
A true developper would code out of passion.
If the artist really wanted to share his creation, he wouldn't charge for it. Money is not a motivator, and real talent WILL get recognized no matter the circustances.
Now don't get me wrong and think I probably steal everything I can because that is not the case. Whenever I actually do recognized real talent, I will donate some of my own money as an act of respect because respect must be paid where it is due. I have donated to several members in this community alone. But we, as human beings, need to realise the horrors of the Monetary System and wake up to see the damage it has caused us.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

@IsaacDFP: What if everyone thinks like you? Don't you think that will SEVERELY limit the kind of apps/games that are produced?

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

you were right.

<blast>

And a hospital cleaner cleans hospital toilets because they love scrapping bloody crap of toilets? And a factory line worker works on a production line because they just love fitting two cables and four screws into 400 phones a day? And a bus driver loves it because he just loves to driving buses all day? And an abattoir worker kills pigs all day because he just loves killing pigs?

All your examples are bunk and are merely examples of where a passion can become a profession. The majority of people do stuff they don't really enjoy because somebody has to do it and the incentive to get them to do it is to pay them with cash which they can buy services elsewhere.

</blast>

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Again, as I've said before.. I think these kind of thinking came about from:

1. incomplete understanding of the market (and how the world works in general).. this is usually from people who don't work.

2. people who cannot afford content that they want, so they rationalize an excuse to get it for free.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Yes I do and I completly support it. Why do we need 100 different media players? Why do we need dozens of different web browsers? Why do we need a never-ending continuation of The Sims games? Imagine Nokia/Intel/Microsoft/Apple/Google were ALL working TOGETHER to create 1 brand of phone (with different characteristics like keyboard, nokeyboard, flip, slider, with essential the same common basics) with 1 OS using the best of each other's ressources and technology...don't you think they would the best the world has ever seen?

That is where you and the vast majority of people are brainwashed. You do not see that those jobs are not necessary, and ANY automated job CAN be replacable by a machine. You should never say "because it has to be done" and ask instead "why it needs to be done". Do we really need people to clean bathrooms? Why not simply redesign bathrooms so that they can self-clean themselves? It never occur to you why should you do something you do not enjoy? What kind of lifestyle is this? What kind of world are we living in? The kind of world were it is more profitable to treat a disease instead of curing it? The type of world that decides to cut on scientific advancements because it is not financially rewarding?

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Again I need to post this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us.

I am a strong support of TZM/TVP to eventually live in a ressource-based economy rather than in a corrupt monetary system.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

So Picasso\Da Vinci\Raphael\etc should only make one masterpiece each? Are you even familiar with the creative process? How living things grow their cognitive functions (and creativity) by iterative process?

Isn't part of FOSS own tenet, its creation, came about from wanting to have CHOICE? Wouldn't your rationalization SEVERELY LIMITS the options in the so called market?

The world doesn't work and get controlled by a single committee. Design by committee largely doesn't work, unless everyone is under a single dictatorship.

You also base (and limit) your thinking just by a few basic ideas which work out on paper (if everyone works on a single thing, that thing will get done faster) but fail to take into account soooooooooo many other things.

see also: brook's law
see also: free market
see also: competition is good
see also: point #1 of my post above

ps: under your worldview, there would be no Nokia\Google\Apple\etc; because they get no incentive to invent, innovate and create new things.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

No you misunderstood my point, I apologize for not making myself clear. They can make as much masterpieces as they want, I am not saying to only make one. What my point is meant to mean, I'm gonna have to explain with Hip Hop references since I am very knowledgeable in that domain. Pretend that no artists ever get paid for their work. We would still have people like KRS-One, WuTang Clan, Run-DMC, Rakim, Slick Rick, or even James Brown, Bob Marley, Kool & The Gang that would STILL be making music. Why? Because their incentive was never to get money, but only to express their artistic point of view via music. In that "world", we would NEVER EVER see the likes of Britney Spears, Lady Gaga, Lindsey Lohan, 50 Cent, Justin Bieber because they simply DO NOT have talent and people would simply choose NOT to listen to them.
Brook's law only applies to project that are already late. If the best minds of the world start working together in a new project, that principle would not apply. And no, in my worldview there would be no corporations at all, only individuals applying their creativity and ingenuity in order to ease/satisfy people's lives. You are very wrong to judge me that way, I am very well aware of the so-called "capitalist" society we live in. Free Market and Competition are 100% wrong and should NOT exist! I think it is you who is in an incomplete understanding of reality. If you give everybody the ability to openly compete, all you're gonna see is a huge propensity towards Monopoly and Cartels, and hence power consolidation. That's all that Free Market accomplishes, despite the romanticism that people claim otherwise. I challenge anybody to explain to me how Free Market could exist without regulation. It will only lead to people covering up, in a warfare matter to shut down anything that is competing with them, that's the whole goal. Again, Monopoly and Cartel are the highest form of the so-called "Free Market". We shouldn't be surprise that we have monopoly and cartels running everything now. The FDA and the senate being paid off, this is free market at work, this is what it creates. And it still blows my mind that, that attribute is utterly denied by people who are proponent of this system...but I won't even go into all of that.

To resume, no, there is no way that a free market could ever exist. It is impossible.
Actually no, it's not impossible but it will only self-destruct in a very short period of time.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

You are very confused. Monopoly and Cartel is the opposite of Free Market. These are created either by political power or conspiracy and force to actively shut down free market in areas they operate.

And you are confusing regulation with protection.
Free market does not need regulation - it regulates itself. It needs protection from parties trying to remove this freedom.
A bit like the GPL uses few "regulations" to protect itself from implying more regulations.

And this is why humans invented societies and countries - to protect themselves. This is a job for government - to protect the people from outside and internal threats. Nothing more and nothing less. Protect the borders, personal freedom, proprietorship and free market. Rest will create emergent order by itself.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

By that definition, you are either saying:
1) We currently do not have free market
or
2) There is no monopoly and cartels in existence

Go tell all the small towns that face Walmart what you just told me.

Am I seriously the only person in this forum to think that there is a problem with the way capitalism runs this society...?

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Yes.
Currently we have different types of socialism.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Alright, on that I can agree with you. If pure true free market existed, I might support it. But i don't believe it does and ever will.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

In a way I find it funny that some people do not see how same kind of situation you are in monopoly, oligopoly or cartel compared to socialism or even communism. "We have freee market, We have free market!", "No! You have cartel where corporations spend _huge_ amount of money to lobby their interest". Money goes to share holders compared to government. There is difference there that anyone can join the "party" by buying stocks, but still it´s in a way same kind of situation. So do not wonder why EU is quite strict on some corporations, e.g. Microsoft.

And some on topic video
Neil Gaiman on copyright piracy and the Web.
http://wimp.com/neilgaiman/

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Fine.
Just stop saying that Free Market doesn't work.

We never tried it, so we don't actually know whether it works.

But analyses of different attempts on introducing free market practices lead to the conclusion that it should work.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Van Gogh, Serat, Kafka, Poe, Gaugin, El Greco, Bach, Keats, Thoreau and many others (would have) beg(ged) to differ.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Thank you!

I'm sorry but I can't do that. I'm not sure of which analyses you are refering to, but in the end, it all comes down to a monetary system, and everything within that system will fail. You know why? One word: ethics. It does not, but more importantly cannot, exist within a monetary system. Is it financially suicide to be ethical. If you make and sell lamps for exemple, in your own store, and there's another store in front of yours that also sells lamps but better than yours, you cannot tell your customers: "My lamps are 20$, the same price as my competitor, but you know what? His lamps are actually more durable, illuminate more and take less energy than mines". You cannot trust anybody in a monetary system. Free market or not, it shouldn't matter.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

How would you know? Who are you to be able to tell what was behind their creativity? I admit I am not familiar with these artist's background and personal life, but I stick to my point, that a great artist should not be motivated by money, or he shouldn't be descrived as an artist. They do it because they love it, and they know they bring a difference aspect/perspective/point of view to their existing worlds.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

1. Which monetary system are you referring to?
Do you know that there is more than one monetary system?

2. Free Market is about voluntary exchange of goods. You can have it without monetary system in use at all.

3. And your ethics example... If you try broadening your perspective and think about it again, you will see how deeply flawed it is.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

The people I mentioned above did exactly that. They also had to resort to 'real jobs' or live on loans/help from friends and family to be able to fuel their passion and mostly died in poverty and/or lone and forgotten. I wonder how many *acclaimed* artists would have remained unknown had they not decided to monetize on their work, and how many DID make that choice, only for the general public never to became aware of them.

On an unrelated note - the Gaiman link is tangential - he's not saying piracy is justified, he's saying targeted on-line distribution can be used as a business model. Those are very different things.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Who are these people? (wink)
Is it possible that they pursued a life path that was no interest in other people lives, so they did not see any reason to provide for these so called artists?

Nature does not provide free meal. So do people.

Ergo: You either do some portraits, concerts, speeches, etc. to fund your experiments in art, or find a wealthy patron that fancies collecting spurs of your "ingenuity".

One cannot expect the community to provide for him, just because he called oneself "an artist".
Otherwise I will make sitting on my arse an art. ;P

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Isaac, you've made so many inaccurate assumptions and arrived on erroneous conclusions due to it.

Look up artist's name + patron.

Almost all the great ones have em.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

1. There is only one monetary system in existence in our current world. I hope you don't mean there are different currencies... As defned: "A monetary system is anything that is accepted as a standard of value and measure of wealth in a particular region." I suggest you take a look at the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monetary_system
As you would understand there are technically only two "types" of monetary system, as one has been abolish many many years ago.

2. Would I be mistaken if I think you are making reference to Free Trade? If that the case then you must be talking about Barter. Again, take a look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter

3. If you could take two minutes of your time (which I would personally appreciate), this is what I meant to say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W_P_30b9jY

I know I copy a lot of links but I just don't feel like writing a book here, lol.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

From a person that actually believes we are in a free market society and that competition is good, your words are of no value to me and I hope that one day you will realise how wrong you are. I strongly recommend starting by taking a look at the Zeitgeist movies, broaden your horizons a little bit.