Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Very nicely put! :)

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

When you copy software you do so to avoid buying it. So again you are removing revenue from the accounts of the person creating software.

This in the long run means that the cost of developing updating and maintaining that software is devided between a smaller number of paying customers. Each of them ends up paying more to use the software. Encuraging them to do the same thing.

until the eventual outcome is that company X has to charge so much for its software that no one is willing to pay that for it use.

They fire their developers as the cost of updating and fixing bugs is no longer viable. Everyones bank account is empty.

Its more complicated but the result is the same.

You can argue that the cost of software vs the cost of producing and maintaining it is invalid. But having worked for a large software orgainisation The cost of testing maintaining updates fixing bugs inproving features, is all very very labour intensive.

If you consider the cost of the software to high for the work you beleaive went into it. Do not use it. If you think they have given you to many barriers to use. Then do not use it.

If you feel you need the software then it has value and pay for it.

It may not be theft but it is a reduction in the value of of people work against their will. IE copyright infringment.

If you do not like it do not use it. Any thing else is simply an excuse to make you feel better and ********

There are plenty of open source projects out there. Many of them extreamly good (better then charge for). There is no excuse to use software developed by people who have dicided not to donate it to the rest of us. Respect there choice and time

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

I think he's a troll. No one can be that ignorant/unsmart.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

There seems to be a surge of eloquence on here today! :)

A lot of people really do seem to think that because they don't see the effort involved (and they can hack a macro in 5 minutes) that software development to the standard demanded by the commercial world is nothing at all.

Your point regarding the only reason is to make the individual feel less guilt is perfectly valid. Makes you wonder how the individual would react if their job was considered not worth paying for too.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

No, I think it was originally just to avoid racist behavior from sellers, for instance. But this is an other thema.

Not at all. The difference of price between a branded product and a copy still exists. First there is the reputation of the firm, which gives more value to the original product. Second, the innovative firm has time precedence in the market, which is quite a commercial advantage.

No, once again a developer doesn't have to live on selling his programs, but for instance he can do any job where his ability to develop will have value on labour market and would be included in his salary. This job can be "developer", and in that case all his production helps for the general functioning of the firm, and will be paid for that.

Many people do have such a job. A system administrator, for instance, do write some scripts every time, but he doesn't actually sell them.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

if I wrote an app which was non-trivial and required a lot of investment of my time and deprived me of normal income whilst doing it, I would almost certainly tie it into an online service in order to make it a subscription-based service rather than a one off.

many iphone users "jailbreak" their phones and install "non-purchased" applications claiming that this allows them to try-before-you-buy and bypass the itunes store. the reality is that, unfortunately, most are actually *pirating software
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives...u_buy_myth.php

in the OSS world I think people are a tad more honest, but I don't know many people who do donate. I have to admit, an application has to really impress me to make me consider donating, or there has to be a bounty to add a feature I want. I guess if I was richer I would donate more.

* I don't like the word piracy, it's NOT theft in the legal sense, it's copyright violation and possibly patenting licence infringement too.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Unfortunately in Paris this is not uncommon. The bigger concern is this type of attitude is considered normal amongst youngsters that have been pampered hence the issue with file swapping and the music industry. Selfish attitudes seem to be on the increase without thought as to the longer term consequences - something that does nothing good for soceity in general.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Well, I meant : apart from this licence agreement, of course.

I've already wrote that, as long as you agreed to end user license, you gave your word and you have to stick to it.

But it 's a word you gave only because it was required by the seller, I don't see any ethical or economic justification to it.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

the reputation of the firm? Have you heard of the OEM market? i can only conclude (and hope) that you have never had any involvement in a commercial enterprise!

In House bespoke development is a route for some development. So you would be happy if all commercial development was not available to the general public?

When is this development supposed to take place? Someone has to spend a lot of time and money developing and testing applications for the commercial world and you feel that this is not worthy of recompense?

What do you do for a living that provides similar contribution to soceity in general that is unpaid and therefore provides an example of this lifestyle?

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Just to put things into perspective, how much do you think we're paying for the IP (R&D) costs on your hardware compared to the manufacturing cost of the components? Especially on things like the CPU?

The main difference being that you can't just copy a CPU design with harddrive/internet/dvd writer.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

So basically you think that not keeping your word on something is not ethical or that someone should apply conditions to their supply of goods/services to you? How about I moan that it is unethical of anyone supplying something to me to demand payment (condition)?

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

I like chiming in every half-dozen pages or so for no reason :D.

I personally only write, and use free software. I'm of the crowd software should be free.. support should be paid. That's why I use Linux.

Whether I'm for or against software piracy.... meh. It won't affect me.. I won't make people pay for any software I write... I much prefer donations.. that tells me people actually *liked* my software.. not just paid to see what it does.. And I don't pay for software (read: I don't use pay software) If you make a living selling your software then I truly believe the Linux eco-system is not for you.

Besides... Your software being "free" has it's benefits too.

Movie and Music piracy though... I'm sorry - the *AA charge way to damn much for ****. If I pay $8 to see a movie in a theater I have no issues about getting me a copy of it personally. Paying $8 to see something once is silly. Then, buying a DVD or Blu-ray only to be told I'm not allowed to watch it on my computer or tablet/phone.. only on my "authorized" blu-ray player... even more ludicrous. The failed attempts of "DRM" piss me off more than pirates do.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

I missed the part where the (now) externality of cost of development is recouped by the company paying the developer. You've just shifted the cost upstream, outside of the system under consideration, without providing an explanation of how your twisted world view provides any retail software. You might as well state that you think that all software available to the public should be free and then explain how this is viable in a world where software engineers are very few and far between. (As they would be in a world where there is no retail software.)

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

No. If I am not happy with the conditions I just don't buy, that's all. I don't see your point.

I said that I don't see justifications for these conditions, but still, this is his product, he can sell it with the conditions he wants.

To me it's just as weird as the car seller who wants to sell me a red car, but doesn't want me to paint it in blue.

PS : This is denial of alienation concept, and it's quite incompatible with the very concept of selling. Such a denial of alienation requires the use of law and public force to monitor and check every single commercial transaction not only during actual transaction, but also after transaction and during the whole lifetime of the product. This is awful and vain waste of resource and money.into juridical complexity. I doubt this is something society really benefit from, and therefore I would personally avoid and discourage it.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

@fatalsaint: yet you still consume the goods even if you don't agree with their practices or pricing? Isn't there something hypocritical about that?

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Well in my view there is no such thing as retail software.

But here I must be in troll mode :p

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

same answer.

I said that I don't see justifications for these conditions, but still, this is his product, he can sell it with the conditions he wants, even if they seem silly to me.

Again, to me it's just as weird as the car seller who wants to sell me a red car, but doesn't want me to paint it in blue.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

@azorni: sorry, I wasn't addressing you :) I've given up on you a few pages ago.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

No such thing as retail software? So your earlier posting regarding writing software for the end client directly (bespoke) means that you have no idea of games or DVD's then?

Or maybe if there is no such thing as retail software for you this is an open admission to ripping off all the developers out there by pirating software?

Still no response to the major contribution that this individual makes to the world at large? Must be an extension of the French model for the EU: Leech like hell and moan when you are told to pay your way!

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

I currently work in a FE college.

Sorry to disalusion you. But you are very very wrong.

We have an advert out atm that looks like this
-----

Course A (Free)
Course B (Free)
Course C
Course D
Course E
---

You would be stuned how much time I spend trying to explain that we have no funding for courses C-E.

"But the advert says free"

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Well, trolling or not, go on and finish the other part; explain how it works in your ideal world where all the companies that exist on the basis of their IP alone don't exist. IBM, Microsoft, Adobe, Blizzard, Arm, nvidia, Qt, blah blah 50 pages more blah.

Also we have to remove companies that would be out of business if anyone felt free to copy their products and sell them. Let's start with Nokia...

:D

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

For Music I've actually switched to Pandora Radio. It's simply easier.. and it's free :). I haven't bought a CD in a *long* time.

Unfortunately... there is no alternative to movies. I like movies.. and nobody can make me feel guilty that I have some movies on my hard drive of my computer that I stream to my TV over an HDMI cable (using Ubuntu, I might add).

First off... I have bought copies of the vast majority of them.. secondly... I've spent so much damn money on movies over the years that I simply won't feel bad if I happen to have a few that may have found there way on there from elsewhere. I have hundreds if not thousands of DVD's, same for VHS, and am just now (since I was only just recently able to afford) have started building my Blu-Ray collection.

Blu-ray gives me pause when I buy it though... because of the pathetic DRM on it. Getting me a copy of my Blu-Ray onto my computer is a much bigger PITA than my DVD's :(. Blu-ray's, DVD's, etc all scratch and break. I simply prefer watching something that isn't going to totally break on me.. requiring that I once again have to pay to get something I already had because it was built in such cheap quality.

But.. philosophically.. I stand at ends of the *AA (MPAA specifically here). They get my money only because there is no alternative free way to do it like Pandora Radio.. (although: Netflix comes close. It's not free but I'm not paying individually per movie either. Streaming Netflix to my TV would be all I need if the Insta-queue had more movies for it.)

ETA: This also happened with software for me. I used to use windows.. and yes I'll admit I used Pirated software because as a teen I couldn't afford the expensive stuff. Does that mean the developers time wasn't worth it? No.. but I couldn't afford it.. and since it was out there I didn't make myself suffer just to feel not-guilty at night. Since I've switched to Linux things are significantly better.. I don't use any pirated software - because I can completely avoid using any pay software. I don't buy anything off of Google Market for my Android either.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Well I don't buy nor play games.
And as for DVD, this is another topic, but not much different.

Well, as long as open source software does exist, I wonder wether retail software industry is really necessary and desirable.

Well, I've earned quite a lot of money as software engineer in an investment bank and now I live on stock markets. But this is digression, personal life of people should not be used in a debate.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

@HumanPenguin: I guess I'm an optimist :P
It also pose the question of how many open source users are here becauses they're 'misguided' or they misunderstood things...

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

People that honestly see nothign wrong with stealing software is the very reason why the PC game industry is in a massive recline right now. There is no justifying it. It's that simple. Everything else on the matter is just conjecture and horn blowing.

2d

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

I doubt it would be the end of the world.

Also, since you mention Nokia, please notice that this firm has made a huge step towards open source.

As far as i'm concerned, I had no smartphone but as soon as I heard about the N900 with a version of debian inside, I immediately went to a store and bought it cash.

So my guess is that Nokia has made quite some money with this open source software.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

I tried the donation route Fatal on an app that had 300,000 downloads. I ended up with about 50 donations. But I received THOUSANDS of emails telling me exactly what they thought was wrong/new features/general *****ing. I tried to support them as best I could but when I started getting death threats against myself and my family when I didn't give them the answer they wanted (no I am not making this up) I made the app paid (still leaving a cut down version for free). At least that way If I was going to have to deal with *******s I would be making a small amount from it.
The whole experience of that and a number of the responses here have left me with very much a feeling of FARK USERS, and an urge to write software purely for myself only.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

And yet WoW for Blizzard and Eve Online are available to install via a free download.. and you just pay a monthly subscription for services rendered. Which you can cancel at any time.. and in the case of WoW play on a free WoW Server if you want.

Savage II and Planeshift are less well-known MMORPG's because they don't spend as much into advertising but are both free.

*shrug*

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

The idea behind copyright is so that it benefits the society by spurring innovation. That was the initial idea behind patents and such.

It's not about making profits! Never was! The problem until recently was that the only way to ensure innovation was to ensure profits. Nowadays that's no longer true, as one can see the vast amount of FOSS and CreativeCommons stuff being produced.

So if your interest in copyright lies solely on making profits, then you're doing it wrong! ;)

Just wait some years until replication technology matures, and there's a RepRap in every home! :)

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

So all paid software should be pay by month based - hell thats fine with me.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

I've never been that popular with my software to have to deal with that. The model I came up with originally when I wrote some software a while back and had it on my website (since removed because I stopped maintaining them) - was that if someone requests a specific feature or wants something into it that wasn't there... they can donate.

Bug fixes, or things not working as advertised - I take on as my responsibility for writing the software broken. Adding anything to it... well - it's free. So if I get the time.. maybe.. if not - you can either Donate to me, which will make me care what you think.. or write your own. I did.

Death threat emails would go straight to /dev/null.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

You also pay for goods or services 'only' because it is required by the seller, not because you like it :) But seriously, software is tricky business, it's very difficult to measure the 'added value', or justification as you put it. I know we established analogies suck, but think about this way.

Imagine public transportation. You have the option of buying a ticket or walk. Instead, you just jump over guardrails, claiming you only want to 'test' the system and that you will buy a ticket at the end destination if you like it, or claim that if could not get in without a ticket, you would have not used the system anyway. The transport company has the same costs regardless if they have 1 or 100 passengers per carriage, so you might think it doesn't matter.

Now, for those that DO buy a ticket, what you are asking is, why is it bad if you buy a ticket and then let in 99 of your buddies in for free ? Because at 1 customer per ride, the system is not profitable. If none of your buddies would have paid anyway, the system is doomed as it's not sustainable at that ticket price. If some would have paid, but didn't, the system is also doomed, as they lost revenue. Only paying customers make THIS particular business model viable. Alternatively, they could turn to subscription, or, the easy way, just tax everybody (not really a win, eh ?).

That's why many systems have complex admission systems and/or people checking passenger tickets occasionally - they are the transport company's equivalent DRM. Does the guy who checks your ticket bother you ? He could penalize you - you might have bought a proper ticket and misplaced it. Paranoid companies might employ hidden X-Ray machines to check on you. Your actions while using the system might be supervised via camers. But the bottom line is the same - whether you are bothered by tickets or not, your choice is to USE or NOT USE the transport system. You can protest in front of the company about terms, prices, but you DO NOT GET TO RIDE WITHOUT A TICKET WHATEVER THE 'REASON'. This also applies to copying - I hope I don't have to explain why copying tickets for your buddies is a problem ?

My suggestion is to get a bicycle. Clean, free and keeps you in shape :D

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

/dev/null my *** I forwarded them all to the ecrimes division of my local police. Which resulted in a 12 year old boy begging me to drop the charges - this after he threated to kill me, rape my wife and kill my child. If I had it in my power I wouldnt simply have had him charged I would have beaten the little **** within an inch of his life.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Depends. In the case of WoW and Eve you are connecting to a Server owned and operating by someone else. That's what I consider the money per month to going to. Them keeping those servers online.. not the game itself.

And as I said.. in WoW you can download and install the game.. and play on a Free WoW server and never pay a dime.

I don't mind supporting wow once they made the installer available for download. I had bought the original WoW discs forever ago and have since lost them.. and I refused to re-buy them. Once the installer was easily obtainable.. now I just pay them while I use their service, and don't when I don't. I'm not paying "for the game" in my mind, I'm paying for them to keep the servers up so I can play on them.

Something like Fallout 3 I admit.. there's no middle ground. You aren't always connected to their servers.. but something as graphically intensive and world-in-depth as that game took 1000's upon 1000's of hours to build. People need compensation.

Personally.. I think the problem is not that they need money but that people don't donate. I don't think requiring pay software, or enforcing DRM are the way to go - I think people that use software should be more giving if they like and actually *use* it.

Unfortunately... the latter isn't happening - forcing people to do the former - forcing people like me to have to make a decision on whether or not I want to support that company or writer.

For games.. I'm more lenient: I'll buy a game if it natively supports Linux. I got to pick my battles here...

For normal office/desktop software - I won't pay for it. There's a free alternative somewhere or I'll write it myself.

Re: Angry Birds Levelpack back in OVI-Store (Edit: and now not, again...)
 

I wrote : « a grammar book is still a book ».

This is metalanguage concept and this should not be ignored by a software engineer. I'm quite surprised.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Hah.. it appears I'm not the only one that's had a teen arrested before. Win. :D

I had one threaten to assassinate the president in an IRC network I run.. went straight to NCIS (I was in the navy at the time so they were the on-base security and that's where I lived.) who sent it up.

You're correct though.. death threats should go to ecrimes.. not ignored. I stand corrected ;). And I also agree that the kid deserved a little one on one time with a rabid and hungry pit bull...

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Good for you, you are actually earning your play though by contributing usage data so it's not free, someone else is paying for you.

So becuase you have bought some then you feel you are entitled to all, even though you may not have contributed anything to the people whi's work you are using? Rather selfish really.

A lot of publishers will replace the media for you, so this is not an excuse.

But by taking a copy without paying for it you are saying exactly that! If you can't afford something then either find an alternative or save up for it! Everything in life has a cost associated with it, maybe it is about time you started paying for your costs too. I can't afford some of the items in life that I would like to own too but I dn't just take them and then decide not to pay for them. Just because someone else removed the barrier to obtaining this it made it ok? So if someone looted a store and offered you the items at a knock down price would you think that acceptable too? (I suspect you would).

Excellent - at last you aren't ripping anyone off I hope! Shame it isn't becuase you have improved your morals!

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

@Bratag: Dude, you've gotta tell us what kind of software you wrote to wind up a 12 yrs old that bad :D

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Why is this different? Software on DVD's are a signifanct part of the content too.

So support the open source software and don't ripp off the commercial sector. If open source works better then the model will change but don't be a hypocrite.

I have investment banks amongst my customers too but what tools were you using in your development? If you used the MS stack at any point that is retail software!

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Nokia is actually still living on it's IP though unless you have missed all the information about the legal wrangles between Apple and Nokia? nokia are also not selling Maemo, they are selling the hardware which is definately not open for all.