Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

You make it sound like piracy is enforced everywhere..

A lot of people pirate stuff even in the US, Canada and Europe...
Piracy laws are barely enforced

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

If only it was only about that, everything would be fine.

But you don't just refuse to give away for free something you worked on hard to create.

You also want to put a cop behind the back of every single one of your customers, so that this cop will make sure that they do not give up your precious software to someone else. And the funny thing is that the salary of this policeman is supposed to be paid by taxing those very customers.

This is insane.

You don't only refuse to give up for free. You ultimately refuse to just give up : you refuse alienation.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Consider the possibility that piracy is desirable to some commercial software houses. The expensive CAD packages for example. The cracks to evade the securities can be found really easily, and I can see that the links of such software on rapidshare are not at all being hunted down (in contrast with most of the games, OSes etc). A student or young professional who does not afford a 3000? software will find easily the cracked version and will learn that software. On the other hand, large organizations, and well established professional engineers/architects are hunted down easily via each country's tax or legal system for software piracy. So the expensive software remains an industry standard (if you couldn't find pirated photoshop, believe me a whole lot of people would learn about the gimp - same analogy about AutoCAD and Intellicad) and the revenue comes from the companies that use it.
________
ShirleyHot69 live

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

It is also a common practice for Autodesk to give away free licenses in return for good modules made by such illegal users. It is a direct advantage for them. They are against distribution of pirated versions, but they never try to fight against users of illegal copies in Russia at least.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

In Soviet Russia, software companies pirate YOU!

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

there is the thought that microsoft would rather see someone use unlicenced windows or ms office then use a free alternative. Heck, just observe the argumentations from the lobbyists in relation to the US trade "black" list entries for some south american nations.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

the thing about copyright is that its a concept thats been a law for a minority elite, the owners of the means to copy, for the last 500 years. But thanks to the digital computer, and our ability to come up with ever more ways of turning analog data into digital data, everyone can be part of that "elite". End result is that we now are faced with a tradition (an established "fact") thats falling apart. And we humans love tradition, as that makes the world predictable. So what we have is the predictable world of copyright on the one hand, and the unknown (here be dragons) world of post-copyright, or even copyright 2.0.

heck, how about i go all the way (and drive a wrecking ball thru this fine thread) and say that the corporate skyscraper offices are the modern day cathedral, with copyright, patents and trademarks as some of their base commandments. Basically, its gone religious, with its priests wearing suits, not robes (except maybe when showing up in certain courtrooms).

i dear say that piracy is the digital ages rock and roll, where the kids are experimenting with whats possible with the new "amplified instruments" and such, while the parents and community elders go around worrying about the downfall of youth.

i say that we are facing the first signs of a potential post-scarcity, or at least a "to cheap to meter" kind of system. The next step up is the 3d printer, and it will come.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

How much would be the marketshare of linux if you couldn't get your hand on a pirated copy of windows?They are just trying to bother you enough so that you end up buying it. E.g. the first netbook came with preinstalled linux. They dropped the price of xp to less than half to be able to compete. Now all the netbooks got windows (it's difficult to find one without). Isn't it fair that I buy one copy of xp and use it on two computers? Why are they selling the retail xp twice as much as the netbook version. It's the same software.

I am not trying to justify myself. I have four winxp licenses and I in fact believe that windows is a software worth the money I pay. I am just trying to say that we do really live in the post-copyright era and the software companies know that. They are just trying to adapt, with a different way each one.
________
Redhead Webcams

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

If ford starts to charge way too much for the focus, people are going to buy a golf or a mazda 3 or something else. In software this is not always the case. Nobody can make something that does what windows does. There is linux and it is free, but I can't use Autocad on it, I can't play any commercial games, in fact i need it. Other applications too, there are not any comparable free or low cost alternatives. Piracy is a way for the crowd to regulate the prices
________
ROLL A JOINT

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Howdy there, neighbour. The point is that in your (our ?) case piracy is not sanctioned (except in case of big companies) because it is considered as an investment, a necessary evil, if you wish. You don't have money to pay for it now, but if you get hooked, at some point in time when you WILL have money, it will be all that much easier to convince you to pay a legalization fee than for you to switch away to a different product. Imagine how successful this is on company scales - you don't sue/threat someone when it has two copies of windows. You wait for him to get big and fat, with dozens or hundreds of server and client licenses. THEN you go and say 'hello, we're BSA', putting them between the choice of changing the whole company infrastructure or 'just' paying a (comparably) smaller sum and be over with it. It's legalized extortion, really, as they very well know who is using their products but are wilfully ignoring that information to maximize future profits (it's almost as drug dealers giving drugs to kids at schools 'for free').

However, wasn't there an effort in Macedonia to switch the schools to open source solutions (like edubuntu) ? That, in fact, might contribute to lowering piracy way more than any law.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Considering that nearly every pre-built computer sold on Earth comes with Windows pre-installed, I'd say Linux would still be struggling. If anything, you've just proven that piracy *isn't* a good thing; as it doesn't seem to be helping Linux a lot. Regardless, Linux's market shared sucked before P2P and writeable discs, and it'll continue to suck.

NO, it isn't. That is not what you've paid for, that is not in accordance with the agreement, the contract that you underwent with the vendor. If you're not happy with it: DON'T USE IT. It's that easy.

How they sell it, and why, is sadly none of your business. Why are houses in Bromley worth 12 times less than 80 years ago (after accounting for inflation)? Because they're being sold in Bromley. Why are houses in Toowong worth 180% more than 2 years ago? Because the market changed. Any kind of seller will change their profit margin in order to attack new market segments.

Also, when you buy an OEM product, usually the computer manufacturer will modify it to suit their needs (strip out specific drivers, add specific software, etc). They already pay for a part of the licence, and as such the price of Windows is slightly less than when you purchase the full version in a store. The software isn't exactly the same, and you don't get the same service either.

Don't understand arguments you don't understand.

That's weird, because that's exactly what it sounds like.

I'm sorry, we must not be living on the same planet. Nice to finally talk with an extra-terrestrial. Because you see, on my planet -- strange as it may seem from your point of view -- our population is purchasing more media than ever before. Even with a so-called economic crisis, people are buying more crapazines that before, are spending more money on concerts, buying more songs on iTunes and games on iPhones than ever before. Books have gone up as well, and blu-ray growth has never stopped rising since it came out.

It seems as if though more people are realising that what they're paying for isn't that expensive, and a fair contribution to an artist's success ($1 per song, COME ON). And guess what, you don't even have to buy the full album! You can just buy the songs you like.

When I was a kid, I would put money aside for 3 (or more) months before I could buy a record. I would go to the "discobus" which was a bus that had a bunch of CDs, tapes and vinyls in it, a music store in a bus. Every Wednesday afternoon I would bike the couple of kilometres to the bus, and listen to my favourite album all afternoon (At the time that was The Offspring's Smash, and the Red Hot Chili Peppers' Blood Sugar Sex Magik). And trust me, the joy I had when buying those first albums is something that most pirates will never experience.

Nice try, troll, I'm sure you were hoping for a bit more of a cataclysmic reaction. I'm not even going to reply any further to such a stupid and brain-dead blow.

Because they have better things to do? Seriously, do you honestly believe that people at AutoDesk want to spend their time surfing the web amongst porn ads trying to remove cracks? Of course not. People have, you know, lives -- interesting things to do. Stop thinking that because it's being ignored, they tolerate it. They're not asking for it. You have to understand the difference between limiting your losses when facing a lost sale, and attempting to recover a sale.

Teenagers who pirate AutoCAD, which is indeed a $3k software package are not an interesting market for AutoDesk. They would never buy it, so you might as well just ignore them. They won't cause you much harm, and they're getting trained on your product. No engineer/architect/company in its right mind would use a pirated version of AutoCAD, because once they get caught, they could lose everything, and that's where AutoDesk makes its money. But then again, ignoring someone isn't giving them permission. The license agreement you sign when you install the software (yes, by installing you are entering a contract with the vendor) says you're not allowed to pirate it. That's, effectively, the law, from there and then.

There's one other thing though: as a student, you don't need the ****ing software. Or let me put it another way: If you can't afford it, or account for it as an operating cost, you don't need it. Need it for studies? Well, you just bought a $4k computer, why not buy the software that's going to run on it? 85% of all startups will use their main credit line to purchase their base infrastructure (which includes servers, networks, desktops and software), why not students... If you really need it, that is.

Again, broken argument by design.

It's actually quite interesting to see this new generation of people who essentially pirate everything and believe that they're entitled to anything go flying at the world, thinking they can change everything. Most of y'all probably don't have a job, are still in school, and if you've already started working, you haven't realised yet how simple things are, and complicated that makes life.

And now for the village idiot:

Well actually, that's the only thing we ask for. The software I write doesn't have serial numbers, and doesn't require cracks. It just runs, you can install it on any machine, by anyone, and it will run, without any limit, at any point in time. I trust my customers to pay me when they use my software (actually, the software is so complicated to install/use properly that they need us to set it up, train them, so, we don't need the cracks).

Most authors, artists and software companies don't want to put more security around their products. They just want to do what they're paid to do: write good software, good music and good books, that will make you want to buy their creations.

Oh piss off. Don't insult us by saying things like that. No software maker asked for that, no author nor artist ever requested that. What governments do in the name of piracy is NOT what artists want. Raise the taxes on writeable-CDs? Yeah, like we care. 3-strike law in France? We don't give a sod about that. We want people to either not use our intellectual property, or pay for it. It's that simple. I would never want to send anyone to jail because they violated my IP, and I don't want to ruin their lives either.

Just pay the bloody $10 and be done with it.

I just can't fathom why people would think they're allowed to use something they haven't paid for (if those are the rules of the sale)? How stupid, arrogant, self-centered and lobotomised do you have to be to believe something like that?

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Wow this discussion is on every board I visit. Guess a lot of people are feeling a need to justify.

1) "piracy" when applied to software or digital media means making a copy of digital media that is FOR SALE, that you intend to use (and/or redistribute) WITHOUT paying for the copy.

2) it is never justified. If the digital media was meant to be freely distributed (and much software, music, and video IS) then it would be. Deciding you don't want to pay for it doesn't make it free. Ever. Even if you REALLY wish hard. If you don't want to pay for something then DON'T USE IT. Simple.

So yeah, you're stealing from someone's kid. Way to go. Fight the power.

Bah.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

i said I am not trying to justify myself because I am not. I repeat I have a fully legal licence of windows for each of my computers.

that's exactly what I said. And the fact that people do have more interesting things to do is not an argument. I also have more interesting things to do than count steel rods but I do it because it's part of my job.

and you must not call somebody extraterestrial if you just cant understand his post. I am talking about tso's post. I think YOU are trolling by attacking all past posters who have a nice conversation expressing different views. Ok disagree if you like but stop insulting.
Thanks.
________
Park Royal 2 Condominium Pattaya

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Yes you did. That's precisely what you require with non-redistribution rules.

What you say is precisely :

« Pay the bloody $10 for this stuff, and don't give it to anyone else. »

Sorry but this is not exactly the same.

I think I am allowed to use something without paying for it, just because using it doesn't harm anyone. You don't even have to know it, I have just copied a damned bunch of 0 and 1s on my disk.

We all use many things that have been designed and created by other people in the past. These people doesn't try to waste public force energy to have us charged for that. Because they know very well their creation is sooo easy to be shared. When N people use it, it doesn't cost more to anyone if N+1 people use it.

Your work as a software developer doesn't worth nothing compared for instance to a major scientific discovery. And yet you have the arrogance of saying that your work should be paid beyond the only forces of market, when scientists have never claimed anything like that.

If for instance someone demonstrate Riemann's conjecture, he will receive $1M from the finnish state, and that may be deserved. But then hopefully I won't have to pay if I want to read or use this demonstration.

Just sell your software $1M if it worths it.

Trying to sell something that can be easily copied is tricky. Asking for public force to help you to do that, is a shame.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

As Richard Stallman has often pointed out, we should never fall into the trap created by e.g. Microsoft, Apple, and Disney and equate the cruel hijacking of ships (and killing of people) with something essentially good as helping your neigbour.

I use free software and I have no unauthorized software on my computer, simply because I do not want to use that kind of software. It is ethically wrong to use non-free software because the developer of such software essentially asks me to be a bad friend by demanding that I don't share things with my friends.

I have however noting against paying for good (free) software and have e.g. joined the FSF and donated to many great software projects like GNU Emacs, Emacs orgmode and TeX. These days donations are much easier to make because of paypal and similar services.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

This is actually a funny and quite pertinent way of seeing things.

I want to add that in most countries, non-redistribution rules allow you to share the sofware you bought with your family and close friends. But what if you consider that everyone is your friend ? What if you are that a good person ?

Basically non-redistribution policies are non-christian concept. I'm atheist so I'm not concerned, but I think that's quite ironic that those policies are so much widespread in countries where christian dogma is so popular, and where people are therefore supposed to be all brothers.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

All credit goes to Stallman. For a fine (and funny) talk on free software and related topics, see e.g.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&view=3&dur=3#

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

God damned it. Have you paid license fees for quoting him ? :D

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

This conference seems very pleasant. I've only watched the beginning and I've already laughed several times.

Thanks.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

piracy is never justified, but you're not going to stop me from doing it

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Of course it is justified. Piracy shows that charging for software is universally wrong. It is the antithesis of a certain part within your self. And of neckties. ;)

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

So, confronted to Stallman's dilemma described at 5'30 in the above video, you choose the less evil ?

Better is not to use proprietary software, so you don't have to pirate.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

here is a funny little something:

when there was a economic downturn, the skirt length of dresses lengthens. Why? Because the ladies wearing them used it to symbolize that they could afford the extra expense. Its counter-intuitive as hell if one try to think of humans as rational about spending. But if one drag status seeking into it, spending money on these kinds of things during a downturn becomes a kind of social finger thumbing ("i can afford to waste money on entertainment, you cant").

This factor, the human hunt for status, is so often overlooked in figuring out activity its downright tragic.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

This is a dubious argument, as you assume that those people who copy it would have never paid for it, and, perhaps even more importantly that those who DID pay for it would have paid for it even if they had the option of just copying it.

And how do you cover the original cost ? Through the first sale paying the spent time and resources ? That would mean the first (and only) buyer of, say, Oracle would have to pay a few billion dollars. At which point nobody would buy it, and Oracle would simply not exist.

Software is cheap exactly because of the economies of scale. If you treat software as hired labour, it would become so expensive that it would render itself useless.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

I don't see what makes you think that I assume what you think I assume. What you're talking about here is completely different. Anyway this wasn't my point.

Whether or not someone who gets a pirated software would have bought it otherwise is not relevant. If you mean that illegal redistribution should not exist because it is a loss of income for sellers, well as I said this is circular reasoning.

The income exists only because redistribution is forbidden. As soon as it is not forbidden, this income doesn't exist anymore, and there is no loss for something that doesn't exist.

I don't know, and why not ? Anyway this is not my business. I'm not the one who should seriously think about it, instead or trying to sue this problem out.

So what ? Be it. It wouldn't mean that people wouldn't need data basis anymore. Where there is a need, there is some people working on it. Other market forces would enter the game. It might be free software, it might be the system you've just mentioned. Economics always find a way. I don't know exactly what would take place, but I trust human forces and I'm sure things wouldn't work that bad. After all, non-redistribution rules are preventing people for doing stuffs. Without them, people can do more stuffs. I don't see how, by allowing people to do more stuffs, the overall result could be worse.

Anyway in the video in a previous message, Stallman explains his view on this unemployment and economical aspect. He does make sense and worths listening.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

I very much doubt about that.

Software does exist as a hired labour. Maybe it is not major part of the sector, but it does exist.

Also, keep in mind that if non redistribution rules were to disappear, basically all software would be free. These savings would probably compensate for the cost of salaries of developers who would be hired to respond to specific and commercially imperative needs. Also a market could be established where teams of developpers would join to answer demands from firms. I don't see why such things couldn't work out. I even guess it actually does nowadays. I think you call that IT consulting in english.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

So you refuse to think about it, however you don't mind taking the decision to infringe copyright? Seems like you're just using any argument you can to fit your needs. In other words, you're cheap.

I'm done with this thread, as usual, you're just trying to find excuses for yourself.

Take care,

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

The question is: How can you talk about fairness when it has to take place inside a political system which is inherently unfair? You can't, that's why some of you have to stick to artificial concepts like EULAs or other rubbish like copy protection or DRM. Of course the subject is pretty complicated, and of course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but like so often, the morals get in everyone's way, rendering this thread almost use- and pointless. The piracy movement is much more than most i have read in this thread so far. However, i prefer to discuss this issue with cultural theorists or philosophers. Not with professional programmers, lawyers or businessmen, or anyone else whose mind is embedded in (post)capitalist ideology and/or juridical frameworks. Sober theory outside the box is the key here, which is unlikely, yet not impossible to be found in a corporate forum. But since it deals with open source, things could be worse.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

ah, reminds me of a great episode of the screen savers. a mini debate started between Patrick and Leo. Patrick got on his high horse and said when he was a kid and was caught doing something wrong he was spanked.

funny.

i love forums and i used to think they were a place to have mature, deep discussions about ANYTHING. no, i was wrong. if a moderator disagrees with you, you can be banned or the thread locked, simply for voicing an opposing opinion.

but i will give you my mature, deep thinking insight into this topic.

whats right isn't always the law and the law isn't always right.

that said, copyright and DRM has gotten very out of control. now, i do see where one would say its wrong to download a film, or song, when you haven't legally purchased it. i also see where its wrong to purchase a song and then when the DRM servers that support that file no longer function, you cannot use the file you purchased.

piracy is a complex topic. its not one simple thing. its certainly not as simple as piracy = theft.

theft of what? the millions of dollars the film industry MIGHT have gained in the future? the film industry has no rightful claim on our money. money that could put cloths on your back and food in your stomach, send your kids to school.

enforcing copyright on the internet to the point of denying a person access to the internet is an abuse of a communication tool (the internet). a tool that should not be owned by any one entity. and certainly not controlled at the sole benefit of capitalism.

when it comes down to it, we should choose a free internet over the trillion dollar film and music industries. lets stop buying films / music from the major companies, and stop pirating them. and pass laws against the industry's selfish manipulation of the internet.

Leo at another point said "piracy is a victim-less crime."

thats a brave thing to say, especially on TV. and if you're on your high horse, you may be too high to have any kind of open mind. during the american revolution, it was "right" to stay loyal to great Britain. loyalists were the conservatives of their era.

do you want to be a high-horse riding, "loyalist" conservative or a free thinking human being?

today, we (the working class) are saturated with film, tv, music. its apart of our daily lives. it shapes the cloths we wear, the food we eat, our interests, our relationships. but to the film, tv and music companies, we are nothing more than consumers for them to manipulate and profit from. reality to the consumer and reality to the companies are very different things.

an example would be your friend next door who grew up watching a television show with his parents. feels an emotional and memorable link with this show. but the company holding the copyright either doesn't re-release it at all (on dvd for example) or releases only part of it. he now feels compelled to pirate the content he desires.

The companies want you to desire the content they own, but they want to regulate how you access that content and maximize their profit through any means, no matter how ridiculous, patronizing or insulting to your intelligence.

we should get our entertainment directly from other human beings, not from the giant heartless parasites we call the film, television and music industries.

if you keep your viewpoint so narrow that you think of piracy in terms of honestly paying for the things you want, which is a very good thing, then you are short changing yourself.

the old saying that "you get what you pay for" is completely untrue. if you truly get what you pay for, your dollar would go way beyond what it does today.

if things cost only what they cost to produce, society would have much more food, more electronics, more clothing, more electricity, more everything available. and guess what; less crime.

i believe in a small percentage above the cost of manufacture, but that "profit" should go to further company development, not huge salaries, bonuses, stock holders, etc.

its interesting that they want to automate workers at the store level, when the highly paid executives could be replaced with automation much more easily than a cashier. a computer program would make better and faster decisions than greedy, over paid executives, at a lower complexity than interacting with a customer.

anyway, getting back to the topic of piracy. it depends on which is more wrong:

violating copyright or paying more than you should?

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

:)

I thought about it quite a lot, and I just don't like to repeat myself.

And why should I tell you how you must rule your life and do your business ? If you're silly enough to try to sell things that are so easy to copy, this is your problem, not mine.

Whether or not the end of copyright would be good for your business, honestly I don't care much, indeed. But really I don't know why I should.

Basically you say :

« law should enforce copyright, otherwise I'd be jobless. »

And you say I'm the one that justify myself ?


If you really want my advice, here it is :

Just stop trying to sell numbers and become a consultant, or whatever else.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Good post, indeed.

Fortunately we don't always have to choose between those two evils.

We can also screw the seller, don't buy his sxxx and go to free software.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

hahahaha......

Ok... that made me chuckle.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

I just found commercial N900 software being distributed illegally.

This really makes me doubt whether I should continue with my N900 app. :confused:

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

Again the answer is you do not have to use the software.

Plenty of people have donated their software to the floss movement.

If the software you want is not available in that movement then the argument that it has no vaule is bunk.

It clearly has enougth value that the author is not willing to give it away.

If your religion wants to proove otherwise. Then feel free to write your own version and put the people selling it out of business.

There are plenty of developers that will help if your software idea is useful to them.

Heck if its of use to me and I have valid input Ill even help.

You have no excuse to pirate. And any argument you make about its value being marginal is invalidated by the fact that you have been unable to work with others to produce a competitor at marginal cost.

If the only thing stopping you using it is piracy protection. Then stop using it. this is exactlty what we need to give these companies the smack they need for making life harder for customers. No customers. Not an in with the lawmakers stating it must be of value or why are people stealing it.

You are creating your own problem by using the software.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

You can also find plenty of commercial software which originally had very restrictive (and probably expensive to implement) DRM, so that's no panacea. I'd have been amazed if you couldn't find it anyway - expecting all N900 users to be paragons of virtue is being hopelessly optimistic (and the inability to legitimately get a copy doesn't help), and it only takes one person to upload it. If your program is good enough then a number of users will be happy to pay for it - whether this is enough to cover your costs or not is another matter, and one that's nearly impossible to predict (especially in such a new market).

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

It depends on you. I think you should build in a system for verification, because N900 doesn't have a DRM system built in.
When program first starts give a user field to enter a key. Generate the key through IMEI on your server and tell it to the user after he pays. Maybe allow some functionality before asking for the key.

I think there is no uncrackable system. With enough time/money everything can be cracked.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

And i would rather not work on and release software in the first place if i feel i have to view my would-be customers with distrust such that it requires all that extra effort and headache for both them and me to ensure i would get whatever i consider to be a reasonable renumeration for my efforts.

After all the back and forth on this thread about whether piracy hurts the availability of software, etc etc so forth, all the hypothetical arguments...

Your obviously sensible advice given the many sketchy, inconsistent personal ethics revealed in this thread, and my response to it without really thinking about the grand scheme of things--just the hard realities of a plan of producing a significant product--mean: Q. E. D. Sadly, but clearly.

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

While corporal punishment isn't enlightened, some form of discipline is indeed in order for children much more often than is politically correct these days. Anyway, sort of off topic except it's clear a lot of people grew up without being imprinted with any greater sense of ethics than self interest, which reflects a lack of parental direction.

Alright, i (a moderator) created this thread. I disagree with the most prolific posters in it, all of whom have been faced with the inconsistencies of their ethics and worldview time and time again in this very discussion and gone blithely on in their deliberate ignorance to rail against the very system that has enabled in toto the very discussion being held. If ever there was a time for a moderator to ban users or lock a thread, it's when pathologically selfish and ******ed people are stalking a forum...

But, that's not the policy here, and it has not happened. At some point the thread may be locked just because it has degenerated into nothing but insults, but it will not as long as it remains a free exchange of ideas and stays clear of the few rules we have here.

I just want to make that clear because i don't think your "us-vs-the man" stereotype that included the gatekeepers of this forum is fair or relevant. I realize you may not have been referring to this forum, but just in case...

Re: What is "piracy" and is it ever justified
 

You post seems to have confused me.

Just like Pirates are living a dream world claiming "free everything, anytime"... you as a developer would be living in a dream world if you don't think you should have to pay attention to security for your apps.

Everyone is distrustful. Start there.. work your way.... down ;).