NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

Thanks. Wow... "Apple fan Damen Brown says open systems worry him because "there's more of a risk of there being less quality control and a lot of garbage apps." " You can tell that is true because there are no "garbage apps" for the i#? devices.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

Yeah, I laughed out loud at that one when I heard it on the radio. i thought the itunes app store was the primary repository of mobile garbage apps nowadays.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

"The anti-Internet". I never thought of it that way. But they're right. That's why I sold my iphone, it was too locked down. Giving our Internet choices to a corporation is a very bad trend.

As we move more and more into the information age, information will become less and less available for free.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

It's kinda ironic that they see not having flash as a sign for the iPad to be an anti-internet device. IMO flash _is_ anti-internet. ;)

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

If you want cheap apps you need a a) huge and b) restrictive (drm protected/no root access) environment. We'll see how MeeGo that requires you to choose between "free" and "lots of apps/media" will evolve in this context. But MeeGo indeed adds some "less free" to the current maemo.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

If it plays out like the last media that Apple 'managed' (music), then this would be beneficial to everyone in the long run.

The first stage, they keep everything in their walled garden for the early adopters who are willing to pay the premium even for DRM encumbered content. This is the incubation period where content creators learn about the market, build up their presence and run their numbers to their financial guys; and alternative channels are being build (non iTunes shops).

When they've build enough quantity to sustain the new business model and the price has lowered enough to make it a convenient micro purchases (ie: $0.99 songs, $0.99 apps), then they may take off the DRM shackles or at least loosens it.

Without transitions like this, I don't see anyone getting what they want.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

They should have just dubbed it the iAOLPad :D

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

I think I will have a nightmare of raining AOL CDs tonight...

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

Apple has a lot of success with the closed model of censorship. The Chinese government could learn from them ;)

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

This is a pretty rosy view of the iTunes history. Apple did not plan to remove the DRM chains, and never would have except that they faced competition from Amazon (who, not coincidentally, restrict my eBook purchases to DRM-laden selections from their own slightly less-walled garden, but that is a rant for another day and I love my Kindle still) for DRM-less MP3's. They would have kept DRM going forever, and any tune I bought from iTunes before they dropped DRM still has DRM on it. This was not part of some long-term Apple plan to provide a more free marketplace. This was Apple grudgingly giving up an area in which they restrict and milk their consumers.

And the loss of DRM is only a fraction of the wall around the iPod, iPad, iTunes garden. You can't load music on your i-object without using iTunes (though you can get your mp3's from anywhere) and you can only use the software they let you use to play your music.

When my old clickwheel ipod's battery went bad (apparently, submersing the thing is not healthy for it) I was screwed. Any other device I would have bought a new battery and been on my way. This device was too expensive to change the battery on. I looked at the iPod touch longingly (it is pretty cool) and at the nano, but I could not justify spending about $200 to listen to music at the gym, and I ended up buying a $40 sansa player which did everything I wanted and let me do it the way I wanted. (Now I use my N900 at the gym--though I am annoyed with myself that I check my email when it beeps while I exercise.)

The idea that there is an incubation period and that it is beneficial to everyone in the long run is just wishful thinking and deification of this corporation. They (like all good capitalists) are looking for every way that they can grab their consumers by the short hairs and extract as much money as possible from them. I give them props for successfully sucking so many people into such a system, but I will not pretend that it is part of some benevolent plan for the future of the world. And I have very little desire to lock myself and my information into such a system.

Here's a little thought experiment for you: pretend that tomorrow you decide to switch to a different platform (perhaps you are required by your employer, or perhaps something so freaking cool comes out from the Acme corporation that you want to switch). What will it cost you (both time and money) to get your data out and move it to the new device? All your contacts, all your calendar items, all your emails, all your to-do lists and yellow sticky note program contents and playlists and music and must-have apps. With all due respect to Kris Kristofferson, freedom is not just another word for nothin' left to lose.

I have access to EVERYTHING on my N900, and all of the programs I use have open formats. And I can move it directly to my laptop (or any other computer) in about 17 different ways. That is more important to me (both as a principal and as a business decision) than having access to more than a dozen Hello Kitty apps.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

I wish there was a thanks button for your post. I used to think M$ was evil but these days Apple has them beat - though I see with WinMo 7 M$ is trying their best to emulate Apple's iPhone model.

It's just ugly...

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

Thread belongs under Competitors, which allows Thanks. I have submitted a request to move it there.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

My last phone was Winmo, and it was fairly open. The WinMo 7 Zune design is somewhat pleasing, but I can't see how other apps will fit into the look/feel easily. Every app on Winmo has pretty much its own look and feel already, so how much worse can it be?

When will the EU decide that the iPhone is as anti-competetive as the windows browser situation? When a European developer gets his app pulled because it duplicates functionality of an Apple app, will Apple get hit like Microsoft did?

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

@rmerren: just to put things in the correct chronology, Jobs' letter on erasing DRM was early 2007 (Feb 6th) and Amazon's MP3 shop opened beta in late September of 2007.

I don't care if Apple is the corp who takes this role; but I do believe the transition from old media business model to the web-friendly business model has to go through such transition; where a restrictive system is put in place to appease the content creator while it builds up momentum and for all the necessary components to fall in place (payment processing, distributors, etc) and to get the mass comfortable with the idea... before it can transition fully to take advantage of open market.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

There is alot of good MBA-speak in there on business models and paradigm shifts and what "role" that Apple is playing in some grand scheme. There is no grand scheme. If the period from the early 1990's to 2009 taught us anything, it is that there is no great economic movement that we are all a part of and that there is no benevolent corporation guiding the way. The only business truism that survived both the dot-com bubble and the real estate bubble was "caveat emptor."

What it comes down to is that you have a choice of buying into the it's-shiny-and-they-tell-me-what-to-do system or not. Aside from the double-the-cost-for-the-same-functionality premium that you generally pay Apple, buying into the walled garden is a very poor economic decision.

Would you buy a car from Volkswagen if they had a special shaped gas tank nozzle so you could only buy gas from their stations and get the oil changed with them, the hood was welded shut, and they restricted the radio stations to the ones they made a deal with? No! You choose your own mechanic, he buys parts from wherever you or he want, you listen to the stations you want and you might even spring for a new Blaupunkt to replace the stock radio. That's the difference between living in the walled garden and not.

I am perfectly happy to see you spend your money on this stuff, but I think it is not just more expensive up front but more expensive in the long run to buy into such a system, and I think it is a bad economic choice for a consumer to make. But that's all we are talking about. Apple does not have a grand plan to light the way, and is setting us back by limiting the choices of technologies, suppliers, operating systems, and software that are available to consumers. Far from opening things up and making things cheaper, they are pushing for anti-competitive pricing (both books and music).

And to claim they are making things web friendly is a joke. Apple has done more to push us away from the "web applications on any platform" concept than any other single company. Before their app store, we were seeing web-based applications where the phone was just a front-end (which was the original iPhone concept). There was also somewhat of a convergence on easily ported Java-based apps (at least with Symbian and windows mobile, where you could choose to run Java apps even if they were not the OS company's preference). The Apple app model gives the developer no other choices for app development (or distribution).

And don't even get me started on the fact that you are not allowed to run an app in the background if you choose (shouldn't it be my decision whether I want to have a long battery life today, or whether I want to transmit my location in the background for the next few hours and recharge in the car?).

Enjoy your apple products--they are very cool. I am not going to tell you otherwise. But I have to take issue with the idea that they are somehow a benevolent corporate overlord bringing about positive change in the marketplace through selective anti-competetive practices which they clearly abhor. That is a load of bunk.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

Well, that's over. WinMo 7 is a far more closed system. Like I said, Monkey Boy Ballmer is trying to emulate His Highness Job's Total Control doctorate as much as possible.

Since none of the old WinMo apps work with WinMo 7 it really doesn't matter. I really hate that ugly Playskool WinMo 7 UI anyway.

Well, it'll be better (as in more consistent) since M$ and WinMo 7 will dictate these things much more than before. Or you could think of it as stifling innovation and progress. I do.

We can hope, but I don't see that happening.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

I can see ysss' point though I don't think Jobs did it willingly. Either he knew DRM free competition was coming, or Apple was starting to get increased attention for being the largest and main source of DRM music that may not work on non-Apple devices. Hence the letter to steer flak away from iTunes.

It isn't like Jobs to willingly help make new competition.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

@rmerren: you've got a lot of angst against Apple that you're misdirecting at me, buddy.

I've never advocated DRM for DRM's sake and never claimed that it's better than open formats. What I've been saying all along is that this isn't a one-sided market. Media distributing companies (like Apple) are playing the middlemen that has to find the middle ground to create an ecosystem with enough buy-ins from both the consumer side and also the content creators side. Look no further than MeeGo's dual DRM\open implementation to have a dose of this reality.

I choose not to respond to the rest of your post that you've thoughtfully written with such condescending tones because I'd rather not to be involved in mindless trolling.

ps: It is in Apple's interest to maintain the content prices as low as the content producers are willing to sell them at, because Apple makes more in hardware sales than from the commission they get of media sales. They also have long term interest to make their platform appealing to the customers by not (overly) overpricing them. Just look at how much Angry Birds is selling on the AppStore ($0.99 with 3 level packs) vs other platforms where it's being sold.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

I couldn't disagree more. But Rupert Murdoch would agree with you.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

It would make a more interesting discussion if you could put forth an example of the ideal transition that you have in mind\have seen happened.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

So that's why they helped increase the price of ebook? Unless they plan on a bait and switch.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

I don't know enough about book publishing biz, but the obvious observation is that apple wants to lower their risk in the ebook distribution game by opting for a fixed commission than amazon's biz model which can potentially net them huge profit on big titles and losses on flops. They can also argue that colors and extended multimedia capabilities justify the price hike *shrugs*

we'll have to see how this plays out.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

Dont bother explaining apple's evilness to ysss... he just likes apple just like we hate it.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

I haven't seen such a transition. Have you? I don't think anyone has figured this stuff out yet. it's a Brave New World, the 'net has just been born, relatively speaking. Everyone is still trying to figure out how to change it's diapers.

But I do think it will take a totally new, different way of doing business, maybe unlike anything we've seen before, who knows? Sorry, but your suggestion feels like more of the same 'ol same 'ol and won't work IMHO. Kinda like the RIAA trying to stop filesharing and hang on to the old ways.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

I never purchased the iphone due to Apple's inherent drive to control the flow of information (in this case by controlling the apps in the app store or not providing open access to information by providing a better browser) and I am never going to purchase an ipad for the same reason.

It is funny, once you think about it, that many apps in the app store are simply a substitute for a limited browser experience on the iphone.

Nokia did the right thing with the n900 by providing us with a full fledged web experience within an open platform. Apple and Microsoft before it started a disturbing though not that surprising trend of controlling not just the device but the flow of information and I sure hope Nokia doesn't follow suit.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

I think that's an extreme comment to make. There are things I like about Apple, granted there's not many. Likewise ysss has voiced his displeasures with Apple products before.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

I hope ysss doesn't think i was picking on him...I was not. I apologize for any offense taken...that was not my intent.

I am picking on Apple. I don't think Apple is evil (or Microsoft either, for that matter, though I didn't know that Mobile 7 is as restrictive as CrashDamage is indicating and that really sucks), and I definitely don't have a problem with people buying apple products. I don't think the purchase of Apple products contributes to the destruction of the universe, but I also don't think they are changing the world. But if you make the choice to buy their stuff, I think you are submitting to the closed and nonfree world when you don't have to, and I think you are making a decision which will cost you more money and time both now and later.

Apple has fallen a long way from the company they were when I had an Apple II (that's Apple ][, if you prefer!). The company that reveled in having a "Peeks and Pokes" chart listing all the memory locations and their function, and who had velcro-ish closures on the case so you could pop the computer open without tools now sues or bans people who hack their devices and seals their devices shut before they even get into the country. They claim that gaining root access to an apple device that you own (which is what jailbreaking is despite the illicit sounding name) is a violation of the law. It's really kind of sad more than anything else. They have become a self-parody of their 1984 ad.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

Outright evil might be a little too strong. But not much. Extremely greedy and ultra-controlling would certainly not be an exaggeration.
WinMo 7 is very restrictive. About as much as they could possibly make it.

iSheeple blindly feeding from the iTrough. Actually paying out the wazoo to give up their freedoms and continue to paying out the wazoo. It's so sad to see.

True, true. Many other dictatorial meglomaniacs like Jobs have started out with good intentions and later given in to the Dark Side.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

The Chinese government HAS learned from them, I would imagine. The fact is that anti-freedom works, for companies, countries, and even web sites. The only question is, what environment YOU want to be in, because freedom also works. I like the systems with a lot of freedom in them.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

The market changed, the world changed, we didn't. The fact that you're reading this in maemo.org tells me you're more technically literate than most. Do people ask you for help on their computers?

The problem is, we are the technically elite. I'm not saying Apple users are idiots. I'm saying that sometimes we all get tired of fighting the technology to reach our goals. And Apple realized there are a lot more people who just want it to work. For most, being locked down is a reasonable trade off for a stable, simple, easy to use, system... Yeah, you can make jokes about the iPhone, but Apple hit the mark. The masses love it. Hell I bought one. (sold it two months later when an upgrade screwed my jailbreak). :)

Apple is no longer that 80's company who produced an open system called the Apple II. I don't like it, but I don't blame them. When it comes to technology, most people want it done for them.

The masses didn't understand our desire for a "home computer" in 1980, and they still don't understand why we prefer open systems today (or even what an open system is).

Even if there were an exact iPhone clone that WAS open, and not locked to iTunes... Apple's iPhone would still beat it. They built what people want. We are not the majority.

Rise up my brothers and sisters, sell you iPhones and buy the N900. :D

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

More and more I see an eventual war between the Google and Apple worlds. The content finders and enablers versus the content providers and controllers. Not to say Google is without evil; they have a disturbing tendency to violate their own mantra against it on occasion. But I know which world I prefer, and it isn't locked.

Time will tell where Nokia falls and fits. Seems to me they want to straddle the border and that historically never works.

Neither are iDevice users. ;)

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

Google will most likely keep information free for content consumers but with a caveat - they want to mine whatever information is consumed for their ad revenue. So, it is either restricted information (Apple) or unrestricted information with strings attached (Google). If I had to choose between one of them I would choose Google but I hope there is a third choice of unrestricted information at a reasonable price (since free can't be sustained over the long term).

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

Aye, there's the rub. Seems the number of consumers not understanding that is growing, too.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

I think the last 2 posts points at the core of the issue.

We're not talking of just ANY content. These are contents that we (generally) want, but we can't get from the new-web way. IE: non indie movies, big-5 music label releases, 'big production' apps\games, etc..

Those contents can't be replicated easily by 'the community', so we have to find a way to mediate the 'release' of them by the current holders.

@rmerren: No probs, but I hope you got my point too.

@Laughing Man: thanks.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

thats the thing. Most of the apps available thats not some canned goods like a book or media package need a data connection for updates.

funny thing is that html5 is designed to incorporate features worked out by google (gears) and mozilla (prism) that allows a web "app" to store a local copy that can then update itself to the online server when a data connection is available. Both gmail and google reader worked with gears, but is now being converted to html5. these features work in chrome and firefox at least, and will be a cornerstone of chromeos.

heck, there is even full 3d graphics being worked on via webgl. Consider a game that one can download thats basically html5 and webgl.

the problem is, as have always been with computers, that standardized systems takes longer to come into being then proprietary equivalent. And once the proprietary variant have taken hold, it can be very hard to uproot.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

i guess it depends on "free" as in from one source, but at no cost, or "free" as in anyone can provide a update. The latter is what FOSS works on, allowing anyone else to pick up the touch when the current carrier gets tired.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

What an excellent thread. And what an excellent story by NPR.

If we think about it, we in Western societies like to trust democracies, where the people can influence the way things are. Here, however we see people wanting something that they don't see the repercussions of.

But I wouldn't say that all this jazz that's been covered in this thread is the only thing ahead of us in the future. I mean look at Ubuntu. It's easy to use and Linux and fairly popular. Unlucky for Nokia we don't represent a large customer base (enough) that this Ovi business wouldn't try to go the Apple way.

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

Agreed, and I was referring to "free as in beer". FOSS can certainly be sustainable (if it isn't then MeeGo is already in trouble!).

Re: NPR actually covered the closed apple ecosystem this morning
 

There is a subtle difference between the content itself and ways to obtain said content. I think you are talking about the ways to obtain content and I agree that the FOSS way is the best way and should hopefully be free. I actually don't mind paying a "reasonable" (in quotes because reasonable is quite subjective) fee for the content itself if it is worth it as long as the means to obtain content is unrestricted and free.

The other subtlety happens when you have to deal with purchased content on a long term basis. Here, things like per user or per machine licenses have made the ownership of content quite confusing and restrictive. I don't mind paying but once I pay, I should be able to use it as I see fit (use it on multiple machines, access it through any number of applications and so on) with the responsibility of not sharing it with other people if the license so dictates.

Funnily enough, Apple used to value that (and still does in this particular case) by having no restrictions on OS X once you purchased it other than a EULA that was only enforced by your own conscience. Over time, however, they seem to unfortunately be moving away from this philosophy because it is just not that lucrative. That is why, I own a Macbook Pro but as I said earlier, I would never buy an iPhone or an iPad.