Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

Asking developer questions on tmo won't get a lot of views. Most Maemo developers use the mailing lists (such as myself). Subscribe there and ask away. We won't bite. :)

https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/list...emo-developers

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

We N900 users are geeks who rarely leave home and would never ask directions. When we use maps, it is only for Geocaching. When we use GPS navigation, it is only to prove we know a better route than the computer.

The fact that you do not know these things makes me think you are secretly an iPhone user.

(Please be aware that the above response contains sarcasm.)

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

yep that was funny..

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

I've also had very good luck getting development-related questions answered on the IRC maemo-devel channel. Not a lot of guys hang out there, but the ones who do are knowledgeable and very helpful.

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

As good a phone as the N900 has been, I say Nokia has been its biggest detriment. Lackluster service behind the phone, development community that isn't being energized (how about payment services, and more structure in the developmental frameworks), and still a unfinished phone when it comes to software. You guys forget, it took them until the first update to get Ovi store running with the N900 and now the payment service is faulty and disabled. Lost momentum, is all it equates to. They don't have a clear strategy for this phone from day one.

Developers gravitate here, but with all this confusion and mixed signals coming from Nokia ... they don't stay long enough. A real revolving door.

It almost feels like this was a test deliberately set to fail. This thread is just highlighting that Nokia isn't doing enough to ensure proper development. Look at the App Manager as an example ... it doesn't even a have the mechanisms to easily find an app (ratings, comments, screenshots, better organized layout, in line search (without context bar), etc), Ovi Store has had the same apps from day one. Someone is sleeping at their station and the community is doing more than is required ... Nokia needs to put up or shut-up.

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

Nailed it!!!:cool:

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

There seem to be many professional C# developers in this thread who seem be having a hard time starting Qt development.

I'm just curious.. didn't you guys learn C++ in college?

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

PINSH -

I'm guessing you mean that question in curiosity, and not to sound like a smart *** (the internet sure can misconstrue these things) but for me the problem is not C++ vs C#, but rather which direction to go get to the damned IDE. One tutorial I was looking at showed you just type all this stuff at a command prompt?

what would work (which I am considering writing once I figured it out) is this:

1. a breif explanation as to how maemo development works. what talks to what, to talk to what.

2. a breif explanation on the different methods you can do to begin developement, and possibly their pros and cons (from what I have been reading there are 2 or 3 ways to make apps for these things)

3. a list of the IDEs that are available, how they would be used, and pros / cons


also needed is some explaining on why sometimes you need to include the things you include, and how optifying works, how the repositories work (as far as developing and registering your app into one), how the bug tracker works, how the project pages work.

I am a .NET developer by profession. I write billing systems for entire cities. quite a few in California. It's quite frustrating to know that I can write integration systems into Quickbooks, Billing systems for entire cities, commercial software released to customers, but I couldn't program my way out of a paper bag when it came to this Maemo beast.

all I've got is a virtual machine that I'm not even sure is installed right. lol.

like I said, I'm gonna pick this up again, and I PM'd a few people who said they think they can help. For those of you who don't understand, here's my attempt at an analogy...

imagine you are a construction worker. You have built sky rises like no one has ever seen. You have helped built some of the highest church chapels, some of the most amazing theaters, and some of the wierdest office building.

one day, you find out that the motor home business is booming. You have built your share of small homes, you did a little reading on how one would go about accomplishing this, but you have no real experience in it. guess what? there is a completely different set of building codes you need to take into account for with this new style. You can't place an all glass roof on something like this, or marble flooring, it's too heavy. What kind of materials should you even think of? Basically, you need to learn the rules, before you can start.

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

I think the primary mistake here is assuming that Nokia, from the outset, was intending to push into the realm of the iPhone with the N900. They pulled directly from their internet tablet line, and -still- hold the N97 as their flagship device, which does have reliable access to the Ovi store along with all of their other phones.

Also, a huge part of the developmental frameworks as they exist in Maemo 5 are open source, so Nokia can only apply so much pressure here. In a sense this is why they're moving to Qt, so that they can give you the static, unchanging API you need for closed applications.

I'd say that their strategy was to step Maemo from WiFi only to WiFi + GSM data network. Then it was strangely successful and attracted people who didn't look at where it came from, only at what others were doing, thinking Nokia was intent on doing the same.

What do you consider "proper development?"

To be totally fair, the Application Manager is effecively just a front end for apt and dpkg. It's not designed to do any of that.

I think there's a large number of people who came thinking that Maemo was just like Android, built from the ground up to be a Phone OS with an App Store ready to go just like them, then don't bother to look at where it came from and the community that was already here.

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

It looks overwhelming at first because you have so many choices of languages, frameworks, IDEs, etc., and then there is the whole mysterious world of packaging to deb, uploading to the repos, etc. On some other platforms, you really only have one choice.

Just to extend your analogy: Don't build a high-rise. Just get some parts and slap something together to see if you like it. I suggest starting with:

• QT & C++ (or QT and Python, which allows you to skip the build bullet)
• Use QTCreator (or any text editor, really) for an IDE (or use something like IDLE if you are using python)
• Create and test on your computer until you have a working program...then (if you are using C++) use MADDE to build it to an executable for the device.
• Deploy the executable to your handset with SCP
• Run the executable from command line on the handset, or (even easier) SSH into the handset and run it, and it will start on the device

The point is, don't try and learn programming for the device with a major project. Just make a light project (a calculator or clock or reminder widget or whatever) and get the basics working.

If it makes you feel better, I was primarily a C# programmer for a while, have done mostly Java (with some python and more recently PHP) for the last 4 years, and haven't even played with C++ in over a decade. I was able to get a running application in a few hours fiddling one evening, though I haven't played with packaging to deb or any serious testing yet. I probably would have been up and running faster if I used python instead of C++.

Just dive in and build something, and if you find a better IDE or compiler or language you can always switch to it (or use it on your next project).

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

I don't think you quite understood me, what I'm saying, as I have personally seen as in my experience is that there no useful free apps.
and I was aware how many people are "into" the iPhone, thus naturally would rate how high they're satisfied; besides...how many of those have their devices jailbroken, or let's say...downloading they're apps illegally, which I would confess would make you pretty satisfied.
how exactly did they preform this study anyway?

oh and notice... to quote the article :
"* Younger users continue to be more satisfied with their handset regardless of whether it is a traditional mobile phone or a smartphone. Satisfaction among traditional mobile phone users 18 years old to 24 years old is 35 index points higher than the segment average, while satisfaction among smartphone users within the same age range is 18 index points above the segment average. "

now what does this footnote tell me?

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

Oh, what a beautifully welcoming, helpful non-self-righteous attitude!!! Having a bad day?


Developing for this device is overly hard, and things just don't work properly. As a C# developer I'm used to a nice environment that works well and helps me be productive.. I chose Qt+MADDE and it was a serious uphill struggle to get it working (and no, it still doesnt have debugging helpers available despite itself claiming they are installed).. The whole development cycle needs to be simpler. If you start an internet search you get several ways of developing an app for the N900, and they require inordinate amounts of effort.

It should be as simple as: Download IDE, plug in N900 (or other device), do some quick config and then start working through Qt tutorials: there are hundreds of developers out there with good ideas and skills but they get put off easily because the door is too hard to open.

It's not cool to say "if youre too dumb to use google, we don't want you coding apps for our device"

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

I was told by an iPhone fanboy (well.. girl, actually) that an app for the iPhone costs less than a sausage roll.. So why not just buy it? You'd buy a sausage roll if you were hungry

I do kinda see the point

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

http://wiki.maemo.org/MADDE/QtCreato...on_for_windows

You can skip the usb networking part if your pc and yur phone are on a home wifi router

Well, QtC is the IDE. Qt+MADDE gives compilers that run in windows and produce either windows or ARM binaries. The Win binaries run on windows,, you can actually dev an app, run it in windows, check it.. goes on the net or whatever, then recompile it for the phone and run it there

If I work the others out, I'll let you know.. for now I'm using Qt 4.5, QtCreator, MADDE.. Ive no idea about python, or QtPython, or PyQt or whatever it's called.. But python is another populat way to get apps running on this device. It's interpreted though, so a bit slower..

Erm, cos include is like adding a reference in C# - if you dont include the header file that defines SuperObj, you cant use SuperObj

In my head it's just a symbolic directory that links out of the limited C: (os) drive on the phone to the bigger D: drive, and thts where you should dump all your junk, not on C:
Not that Maemo has drive letters.. devices are mounted as folders, but thats not a hard concept to grasp if you consider C: and D: are just folders inside "my computer"


No idea on those.. but theyre kinda like a download site, from a user perspective

I know how you feel.. how about .NET for N900.. Does Mono project do that? :)


[quote]all I've got is a virtual machine that I'm not even sure is installed right. lol.[/quote

aha.. the hard way.. read that wiki link, it does actually work :)

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

See :cool:it just doesnt go any where on this forum, ppl here will just defend nokia & their strategies blindly and no fact or figure would effect their views.
Professionals on this forum have accepted the shortcomings of nokia. We can dodge the point by blaming the age group or the technicality of aap generation but really at the end of the Nokia is not the one with a finished product, and it fails to satisfy it's high paying customers. And this is coming from a very loyal Nokia customer. Like i said before I love my device but i wish in comarison to what's out there in the market for a cheaper price tag, my device couldve been a bit up to speed.:rolleyes:

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

So what you're saying is that we can't make a point you'll ever accept, and we're always going to be deluded.

I'm not disappointed with my N900, therefore I have my head in the sand. Thank you for telling me the true state of my subconscious, regret filled mind.

Well it's not like we can force Nokia to do stuff, now can we? However, I chose Nokia because unlike, say, Apple they don't dictate what I can do with my device and they don't reinvent the wheel like Android.

You're complaining about Nokia. maemo.org is not Nokia.

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

Your'e right, cus in .99c u get practicality, reliability, and staisfaction.

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

Neither $0.99 cents nor $30,000 get you anything but a pile of software. Whether it works well or not depends entirely upon the developer.

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

but maemo.org deals with the devices made by nokia, ppl are at maemo.org cus of nokia. Sure apple restricts you, but as promised it delivers as well. When the firmware comes out on the promised date it comes out globally, not for different regions.
U talk about Andriod, we all know how new that software is and yet it was able to develop better and alot more pieces of software in comparison to the so called hitech, extra ordinary, open source, and unlimited linux based OS.

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

As the man posted above its works for the customer..so its a win win situtation for the developer.

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

Not -because- of Nokia, -because- of maemo.

Android was targeted at carriers and developers from the start. It's also a very self-contained system that is only open by virtue of Google buying them up. Maemo was not targeted like that, not even with the release of the N900.

So you're resorting to open source and Linux bashing, I see.

It -might- work for the customer. Personally I like the community repository and open source aspects of Maemo, it keeps the ones trolling for pocket change at a distance.

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

WOW Fella! u just cant get over that bashing part don't u?
Im not bashing anyone// ...if you cant take prositive critisicm then thats too bad. Besides its not even criticising developers/programmers its diredted towards nokia.

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

You're bashing Maemo for not being right up there with Android and iPhoneOS, when Nokia explicitly did not target them with this device. They went right back to the audience for their prior internet tablets.

Criticizing the community here for Nokia's actions is just annoying. The community here has gone above and beyond to make development easier, but there's only so much they can do.

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

Yes, I also did some assembler code but that doesn't mean that I want to use it for application development :) C# pays my bills but I have grown to like the language. There are many nice features and small things that makes C# quite elegant in my opinion.
But C++ is not the problem. Problem is that the development process and tools are not well documented and refined (as stated few time already in this thread) compared to for example C# and .Net framework. But I tried to install the development tools about a year ago. Probably everything is improved since then. At least there has been many good tips in this thread.

Now I only need to find time for development. That's the toughest problem to solve at the moment! ;)

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

Seriousely man! u just dont get it..

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

http://www.gsmarena.com/iphone_os_40...-news-1562.php

now let's say this is fart aapish too...and it's for younger age group.
And both u & I are on this forum, watch apple deliving it right on time as promised. That should be the track record for a company.

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

Fine fine, you're right I'm wrong. Everything about Nokia is horrible, and I'm mistaken for having bought an N900 and enjoying the experience and the community.

Is that more what you were looking for?

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

This thread goes to the same direction like the thread i started here: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=48626

Why are there way more apps out there for android and the iphone and why do almost all of them offer a good end-user experience? I really don't want to bash the maemo developers here. I really like the N900 and the available applications. Rather i'm looking for similarities between maemo and symbian, a plattform which suffers from the same problems. And this similarity is... Nokia. Why is it so complicated for such a big company to work closer with the software developers and the community? Maemo is more or less a Nokia project, Qt belongs to Nokia and the N900 is obviously also a Nokia product. So why isn't there a one-click installation which sets up a development environment? I'm no programmer, maybe it's more complicated than i think?
Or is it linux? Actually, i'm a windows only user, but a few years ago i wanted to get linux a try. I installed suse linux and relatively fast i ran into problems with my ati graphics card. So i searched the internet, found some forum post and wikis. But all instructions were somehow incomplete and to difficult to understand for a newbie like me. So i opended up some threads on a linux board and got similar reactions like from bandora (post #4): "look here and there, if you don't understand this then first look there..." and so on. No one gave me a concrete answer to my questions. So i gave up und uninstalled suse a few days later. It seems many users only wanted to educate me as a linux expert by reading hundreds of pages. Not everbody has time for that if he just wants to fix a single specific problem.
Just my experiences with linux...

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

I don't know. Maybe Nokia has consider itself as a hardware manufacturer and software hasn't been consider important? Development tools don't need to be super easy to install. Developers usually aren't computer illiterate. Of course you have to remember that Nokia bought Qt only two years ago. I have no idea what was the development tools state at that time but if they were not good, I would expect it to take quite long time to develop better ones. But I'm just speculating since I haven't used the tools!

Linux is not the problem. I have Ubuntu in my netbook and it works better than Windows. For example bluetooth dongle and 3G usb modem both worked out of the box with Ubuntu. But IMO that's not really relevant to this discussion why development has been lacking in Maemo world.

Re: Programmers/Developers which ones are faster??? Your thoughts
 

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: