maemo.org - Talk - Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

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maemo.org - Talk (https://talk.maemo.org/index.php)

- Maemo 5 / Fremantle (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=40)

- - Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo! (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=50557)

sevla

2010-04-20 16:28

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joorin (Post 619473)

Bling isn't everything. Me being able to change the theme is not worth anything if the system isn't stable on account of poor quality applications. Sad but true.

And when it comes to C being outdated, I'm sure them 100+ lines of C code commited into the main Linux kernel source tree every day is just 1995 all over again. Not to mention all the applications that form the base of everything you do on your N900 and on almost all other Linux based systems.

Ease of use is progress, bling is not.

I never said bling = progress. Improved user experience however does = progress. Object Oriented design = progress.

C has it's place in low level code but not in developing front end applications..

just my .02 cents.

fwiw I am a software developer at IBM and not some random wannabe techie blogger, trendy coffee shop goer.

Venemo

2010-04-20 16:30

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joorin (Post 619432)

Did you follow the link given by OP? The one about C++ and its properties and the problems that come with it?

Yes, I did.
Basically, it's moaning about C++.

There are some valid statements, but half of the statements translate to "C++ is difficult, because XY", which is a pretty subjective matter.
Some of them complain about language features which the author doesn't know well.
I think it is ridiculous that he even complains about manual memory management... C++ is not managed code, period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joorin (Post 619432)

There are problems connected to using C++ as the main language for something as central as the preferred toolkit. As simple things as using a debugger can turn incredibly ugly even with moderately sized projects on account of C++, by design, being hard to interpret in object form. That in turn results in harder to debug programs which leads to lower quality code and that's a pain no matter how you look at it.

True. I completely agree.
However, I still prefer C++ to C because of OOP.

And I still think that C# is vastly superior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joorin (Post 619432)

C++ being taught in schools is not an argument for it being the best choice on a device like the N900.

No, it isn't. But it helps if you're stuck with it.
And it is really possible to live with its problems.

For me, the argument for Qt being my choice is that there is no other Maemo developer toolkit which has an IDE that runs on Windows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joorin (Post 619432)

With that said, Qt might very well be the best choice when it comes to application development but it is, in my opinion, a pity it's implemented in C++.

Sure.
But what other languge do you wish for?
C lacks OOP, so it is out of the question. For C#, there is already a big class library which is better than Qt. (The .NET Framework on Windows, and Mono on Linux.)
And despite its shortcomings, C++ is still a popular language for many people.

By the way, the moment Mono becomes a valid alternative on Maemo, I'll stick to that.
It uses a GTK-based UI (called GTK#), and it is programmable with my favourite language (C#), and with the best IDE on the market (Visual Studio).

In fact, I fail to understand why Nokia didn't acquire Mono (or at least incorporate into the platform) instead of Qt.

Khertan

2010-04-20 16:32

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Did you really think that gtk will got the same support as today ... no ...
And no ... coding in Qt isn't easier ... it s just a matter of preferences.

And i hate qt.

Quote:

"In fact, I fail to understand why Nokia didn't acquire (or at least incorporate into the platform) "

Haha ... you really make me laught.

w00t	2010-04-20 16:34

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikhas (Post 619572)

Use them. I talked about feel. Not look. There are subtle surprises everywhere.

Actually, after looking into this further, Qt directly *instantiates* the Gtk filechooser dialog when running under Gnome. It doesn't reimplement it at all.

Take a look at QGtkStylePrivate::openFilename(). QGtkStylePrivate::gtk_file_chooser_dialog_new is retrieved from Gtk itself (see QGtkStylePrivate::resolveGtk())

So I think this might have been a case of severe misinformation on your part.

nicola.mfb

2010-04-20 16:36

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khertan (Post 619623)

And i hate qt.

Hi Khertan,
may you motivate?

slender

2010-04-20 16:37

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joorin (Post 619473)

Bling isn't everything but if the big part of customers are used to bling and except for as absurd things as good looking icons on this wonderful screen (Best way to advertise you device is to make UI shine, when you take it on your hands it just needs to outperform others on this area also) then it´s the way to go. Nokia has done it's job on making engine work so let's hope that Meego will bling, because if it won't then i wouldn't be surprised if masses do not get excited about it and in worst case Nokia starts slowly pull plug because after all it´s all about ROI.

I do not have any statistics but in my narrow point of view I see correlation on nice looking GUI and easiness of usage of IT (Easiness of usage might also be to someone Bash but now I´m talking about GUI). I think that It´s quite probable than when someone really thinks how/what to draw UI he has to use quite a much time just thinking where to put and what to put so devoting to easiness of usage might come along with bling naturally. Just wild guess and "feeling" :)

I have had my conversations with some FOSS people who like to tell that tinkering engine is the most important thing to do because if it crashes you do not have anything. Sad part is that sometimes i feel like they would like to keep it that way inf.. There is always something to tinker and make better. GUI might be just magnet for people who do not know how to use it "properly".

But yes you are correct. JUST bling isn't what makes it easier to use, but it might mean more customers and more money to pockets of Nokia and that again means more support to also people who do not care at all about bling.

sevla

2010-04-20 16:47

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Furthermore, who is going to take the OP's link seriously with statements like this;

Code:

std::vector<My******edTemplate<T> >

I mean give me a break....

Yes templates are/can be complicated. But guess what, they are optional and don't have to be used in MOST situations. Seems like he or she is complaining about something that they do not understand or do not want to take the time to understand.

90% of what was said in that link boiled down to "preferences" and had very little to do with actual fact. The arguments were not that convincing and I even think one of his issues (the only one that had any real merit) can be solved by using pre-compiled headers..

johnel

2010-04-20 16:50

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Summary:

If you don't like QT use GTK.
If you dont' GTK then use QT.

Both are supported under Nokia.

What's the problem?

Please no more holy war.

All we need now is the spanish inquisition and I do not want to be tortured by a chair and comfy cushions.

javispedro

2010-04-20 16:51

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Aha, a holy war!

Btw, which side do those who like C++ but dislike Qt fall on?

sophocha

2010-04-20 16:56

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

This thread sounds like Chinese to me!

w00t	2010-04-20 16:57

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by javispedro (Post 619656)

Aha, a holy war!

Btw, which side do those who like C++ but dislike Qt fall on?

In the middle.

(i.e. you get hated by everyone)

Texrat

2010-04-20 16:58

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

My language is better than your language.

My IDE is better than your IDE.

My release license is better than your release license.

w00t	2010-04-20 17:01

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 619673)

My language is better than your language.

My IDE is better than your IDE.

My release license is better than your release license.

My laptop is better than your laptop.

My black editor colour scheme is better than your white editor color scheme.

My mom is better than your mom.

Texrat

2010-04-20 17:01

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00t (Post 619675)

My laptop is better than your laptop.

My black editor colour scheme is better than your white editor color scheme.

My mom is better than your mom.

Maybe, but my code is prettier!

uvatbc

2010-04-20 17:05

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 619678)

Maybe, but my code is prettier!

... than his mom?
Thats just low(er case).

casper27

2010-04-20 17:06

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 619678)

Maybe, but my code is prettier!

But my code is longer and thicker :p

attila77

2010-04-20 17:09

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

It's not about how big it is, but how you use it.

Wait, that actually makes sense in this context. Scratch it.

uvatbc

2010-04-20 17:12

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Lets try to keep it on topic people - This is a holy flame war!
GTK is better because its first letter appears earlier in the alphabet.
QT is better because it has lesser characters and actually can be pronounced to form a known English word.

nicola.mfb

2010-04-20 17:13

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Just for those that thinks qt is not easy, this is little tool that shows how to create a button that when clicked emit a signal on the session bus.

mywidget.h

Code:

#include <QWidget>

#include <QPushButton>

#include <QVBoxLayout>

#include <QDBusConnection>



class MyWidget : public QWidget

{

  Q_OBJECT

  public:

  MyWidget() : QWidget() {

    QDBusConnection::sessionBus().registerObject("/",this,QDBusConnection::ExportAllContents);

    new QVBoxLayout(this);

    QPushButton *b = new QPushButton("emit signal",this);

    layout()->addWidget(b);

    connect(b,SIGNAL(clicked()),SIGNAL(clicked()));

    show();

  }

  signals:

    void clicked();

};

main.cpp

Code:

#include <QApplication>

#include "mywidget.h"



int main(int argc, char **argv)

{

  QApplication app(argc, argv);

  new MyWidget();

  return app.exec();

}

gui_dbus.pro

Code:

SOURCES += main.cpp

QT += gui dbus

HEADERS += mywidget.h

That's was done in 2 minutes using vi, 20 seconds of that was spent to launch "assistant", type in the search bar "registerObject", click on RegisterOptions and retrieve QDBusConnection::ExportAllContents define that I always do not remember.

Further some seconds to build and launch:

qmake; make; ./gui_dbus

tested with dbus-monitor:

signal sender=:1.223 -> dest=(null destination) serial=6 path=/; interface=local.MyWidget; member=clicked

Now convince me that is easy and fast to use gtk, dbus lib, autoscan, autoreconf, configure, pkgconfig, and so on....

Khertan

2010-04-20 17:13

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Hi Khertan,
may you motivate?

Yep ... i ... just a matter of preferences, i didn't like how qtdesigner works and how qwidget are made, i found that many widget in the qt frameworks are really too more complicated that what they should be. Also because it s tends to do some things automatically for you, but sometime you didn't want that, but you can't prevent it without using many turn around.

Quote:

Both are supported under Nokia.

Qt is ... gtk noone know.

Joorin

2010-04-20 17:28

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sevla (Post 619619)

My hunch is that what many call "improved user experience" (and I call bling) is bought with CPU cycles needed to keep ahead of other devices and with memory needed to actually give the end user a good experience.

Object oriented programming is a tool for modelling the problem domain. Its encapsulating properties are handy in many ways and it can be used to partition the code. Yes, most know this. But is it the best tool, in the shape of C++, for solving the problem of being the preferred toolkit on a device like the N900? My gut feeling is "Not all too sure.".

Why shouldn't C have a place in "front end applications"? If anything, this idea comes across as weird. But perhaps I'm just an old fart like the 3D designer some posts back assumes.

You being employed by IBM is good and all (I'm sure your eP3n1s is bigger than mine) but that's not an argument.

Bundyo

2010-04-20 17:29

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by admiral0 (Post 619207)

Try QT creator or Kdevelop and you'll see :)

Interface designer doesn't make you a programmer you know... ;)

sevla

2010-04-20 17:48

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicola.mfb (Post 619696)

Just for those that thinks qt is not easy, this is little tool that shows how to create a button that when clicked emit a signal on the session bus.

mywidget.h

Code:

#include <QWidget>

#include <QPushButton>

#include <QVBoxLayout>

#include <QDBusConnection>



class MyWidget : public QWidget

{

  Q_OBJECT

  public:

  MyWidget() : QWidget() {

    QDBusConnection::sessionBus().registerObject("/",this,QDBusConnection::ExportAllContents);

    new QVBoxLayout(this);

    QPushButton *b = new QPushButton("emit signal",this);

    layout()->addWidget(b);

    connect(b,SIGNAL(clicked()),SIGNAL(clicked()));

    show();

  }

  signals:

    void clicked();

};

Can also do it this way I think. Or use auto_ptr which does not need a "delete".

Code:

#include <QWidget>

#include <QPushButton>

#include <QVBoxLayout>

#include <QDBusConnection>



class MyWidget : public QWidget

{

  Q_OBJECT

  public:

  MyWidget() : QWidget(), m_b(QPushButton("emit signal", this)) {

    QDBusConnection::sessionBus().registerObject("/",this,QDBusConnection::ExportAllContents);

    new QVBoxLayout(this);

    layout()->addWidget(m_b);

    connect(m_b,SIGNAL(clicked()),SIGNAL(clicked()));

    show();

  }

  signals:

    void clicked();



private:

   QPushButton * m_b;

};

tomaszrybak

2010-04-20 18:26

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoku (Post 619144)

Like licensing did matter.

Freedesktop is run by a board and introduces its plans openly in advance. GNOME has clear open milestones decided in advance.

But putting dependency on Mono might be one of the reasons that some companies might want to avoid introducing GNOME into their devices.

Patola

2010-04-20 18:28

QT is not the problem, Nokia's attitude is.

I followed the whole discussion and I think the real problem is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoku (Post 619144)

One company holding the code could:
- keep you with an unknown release date of the next bugfix release
- join forces with another big company and totally change direction leaving the community behind
- more?

Nokia is doing that right now with the delay of PR1.2 and the Meego Consortium. How can we best avoid and work around these issues?

I am deeply disappointed with Nokia, btw. I once thought it understood open source/free software.

Texrat

2010-04-20 18:32

Re: QT is not the problem, Nokia's attitude is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patola (Post 619801)

I am deeply disappointed with Nokia, btw. I once thought it understood open source/free software.

Some individuals in the massive company do. They are working hard to spread the religion. ;)

Kwljunky

2010-04-20 18:40

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

So wait wait, let me get this straight, your complaining about QT which will make cross platform development, like porting symbian apps to meego and meego to symbian and to other platforms easier and less work, so we end up with a load of apps rather then a few... ???
It will make it look nicer rather then outdated when compared with other apps from other mobile platforms and they do compare them.

viraptor

2010-04-20 19:03

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomaszrybak (Post 619792)

But putting dependency on Mono might be one of the reasons that some companies might want to avoid introducing GNOME into their devices.

And more FUD. Gnome doesn't depend on Mono. Gnome includes some Mono-based applications by default. There is a difference.

sevla

2010-04-20 19:32

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joorin (Post 619719)

I didn't mention my employment to reference anything to the size of my Electronic Penis. I was simply noting that my comments were based off experience and not random thoughts or ramblings..

Anyways I made my points. Both C and C++ have their strengths. In terms of the OP, I just don't get the big protest against Qt or C++ for that matter.

That is all.

nicola.mfb

2010-04-20 19:35

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sevla (Post 619745)

Can also do it this way I think. Or use auto_ptr which does not need a "delete".

Hi sevla, as the button is a child of MyWidget, the MyWidget destructor will automagically delete it :)

Just another great feature of Qt :)

Regards

Niko

Khertan

2010-04-20 20:48

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwljunky (Post 619816)

LOL NICE Trolls :

>QT which will make cross platform development, like porting
Qt isn't the only one

>symbian apps to meego and meego to symbian
Require modifications not multiplateform

>and to other platforms easier and less work,
Hum ... same as other frameworks.

> so we end up with a load of apps rather then a few... ???
TROLLS ... as now if gtk isn't really support in meego ... we will lost a load of apps :)

Rocketman

2010-04-20 21:08

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

My general feeling about Meego & QT is that Nokia is abandoning 5+ years of developing the Maemo OS, associated libraries, build tools, etc. and community infrastructure in favor of an ill-defined partnership with Intel & the potential for easier porting of apps between Meego & Symbian devices. They are imo starting over from scratch & alienating existing users and developers at a time when Maemo is starting to mature into one of the most robust operating systems for phones.

traysh

2010-04-20 21:14

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Qt!!!!! \o/
=D =D =D

javispedro

2010-04-20 21:14

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

The move to Qt has nothing to do with MeeGo (in fact, Moblin used mostly Gtk+).

nicola.mfb

2010-04-20 21:27

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocketman (Post 620056)

From scratch? Trolltech *is* Nokia :), I can just guess what may produce integrating the two experiences.

sevla

2010-04-20 21:39

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by nicola.mfb (Post 619902)

Hi sevla, as the button is a child of MyWidget, the MyWidget destructor will automagically delete it :)

Just another great feature of Qt :)

Regards

Niko

Good to know..

smoku

2010-04-20 21:40

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocketman (Post 620056)

My general feeling about Meego & QT is that Nokia is abandoning 5+ years of developing the Maemo OS, associated libraries, build tools, etc.

They have a long history of abandoned projects, which replacement turned out even worse.

kojacker

2010-04-20 21:49

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocketman (Post 620056)

I feel very similar, imo they really had some momentum building with Maemo and, instead of picking the ball up and running with it, they threw it away. I hope Meego is installed on a lot of TVs, vending machines, and car radios because I can't see it gaining much marketshare in smartphones or netbooks, I will be more than happy to be served a slice of crow if I'm completely wrong, I suppose time will tell.

Bundyo

2010-04-20 22:10

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by javispedro (Post 620066)

The move to Qt has nothing to do with MeeGo (in fact, Moblin used mostly Gtk+).

They are still using it currently.

ndi	2010-04-21 00:54

Re: Say NO! to Qt-based Maemo!

I wish the forum supported posts shaped like anchors so people could more easily detect baiting.

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