Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

some source (in german, please excuse and feel free to translate yourself):

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/b...lt/992634.html

the article is about difficulties greeks and germans had with different weapon deals (my favourite topic btw). greeks blame germans of selling crap and germans blame greeks of paying crap. truth lies beneath that, nevertheless the article summs up some problems of greeks gettings paid what they ordered.

the idea of greek getting invaded by turkey is....ahhhh you made a joke, didn't get it, sorry....took it serious at first

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

as someone paid in US dollars in germany, I kind of hope the Euro destabilises. Means more purchasing power for me. WEEEEE!!!

But in all seriousness. The real problem here is simple. But just like in the US, people don't want to face the music.

The US economy was hit hard by banks foreclosing and credit deficit. These things were bad ideas to begin with. They shoudl fail. But our approach is to give them more money.

That's like buying a crappy car, and instead of just buying a better reliable one, you continue to but more money into the proven unreliable piece of crap. How is that a solution?

So the question with Greece is, do they really need a loan?

YES!

BUT, not to fix thier old busted car, but to buy a new reliable one. Sounds easy right? :)

2d

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

You can find my thoughts in my blog.

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

@demos,
You mean:
http://teemulehtinen.posterous.com/

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

Heh not much love to Greece from IS readers i see.

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

Thanks.
Interesting read, as were other recent post on your blog.

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

Yes, thanks for pointing out. I am currently stuck in tons of work, trying to write all kinds of materials and at the same time telling people from abroad that simplifications don't work.

Start from the military spending. Two months ago, as part of the safeguard package, Germans forced Greece to rebuy the leaking prototype sub that Greece already once returned as unseaworthy and French forced purchase of a new fregatte. All this at the same time as they are saying that Greece should be cutting cost.

The questions are much bigger than most of us imagine and answers more complex than what can be put in a short article.

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

I thought we got past the gun issue 10 posts ago as you didn't give any counter-argument to my suggestion that we can leave the guns out and the big picture doesn't change.

and I want to make sure: I refer Greeks as a nation, not every Greek personally. At least in finland we have over 75% idiots(read=don't have a clue and no intention to do research for getting a clue either) from every person entitled to vote....

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

That is an admirably philosophical attitude youre are taking with other peoples pensions. Considering that German pensions will take an enormous hit if Greece and the other PIGS default, what reaction would you find most appropriate from Germans nearing retirement?

A shrug of the shoulders and a pang of regret that the market didnt judge them productive enough? Or anger at these feckless foreigners ruining pensions they had worked so hard to build up?

This chart neatly illustrates why Europe has no choice but to pay up, Europes Web of Debt. Its mutually assured destruction.

Finally, I think its a bit weak to complain that in 2008 no-one knew that anything was amiss. There were many well publicised warnings about various PIGS economies (I am no expert on Greece but Ireland and Spain were well flagged as experiencing a bubble).

Surely this is not the forum for people to whine about not having done sufficient research.

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

I'm Swiss and i'm glad we didn't join the EU and the Euro.

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

Can anyone quote some figures?
For example:

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

First things first... Before writing any further I MUST make an admission... Greece's economy lies in a very bad state for the past 15 years. Fundamentally it's our governments' faults since 1974 that led us to this point. We are NOT looking to find any excuses. Furthermore, European Union knew about our economic status all along, so you can blame your governments as well for accepting us in the Eurozone in the first place...

Unfortunately yes. Our corrupt political parties steal from us in 8-year turns...

Who said we are not productive? Maybe not as much as Germany or the Nordic countries but still... Anyhow I would love to see you being productive with 45degrees Celcius during summertime... I hope you know what summertime means in Finland, do you...?

NOT the same situation at all. Germany has always had a very steady and strong economy. Whilst this is not the case for Greece. Throw 1,5 million immigrants in any economically weak nation and it will crumble. Not looking for excuses. It's just a fact.

a) You cannot simply understand what the situation is with all the illegal migration unless you see it with your own eyes. Again of course our government is to blame for not controlling their population in the first place. But as I have aforementioned, so many immigrants thrown in an economically weak nation is bound to speed up the process of going bankrupt.
b) Communism? No way! Greece's communist party takes about 6% at every election since they were legalised in 1974... Only half of them are true communists, the other half see it as a way to go against the norm. It's true that our government holds shares or even entire control over loads of corporations and organisations. But you should understand that up to 20 years ago they were profitable. And now the question arises... What has the Greek government done in the past 20 years to solve this issue...? And I'll answer myself... Nothing...

(The following comment goes to ossipena's statement) Haha! I almost split my sides with laughter here...! Again NOT the same situation at all... And now let me elaborate on how many money does Germany owe to us primarily for reparations and what WWII meant to Greece's economy...

Firstly, Germany owes 275 Million Euros as reparations for World War I. Now, as of the Paris Peace Conference (1946) Germany was to pay reparations to Greece for different reasons, but all as a result from what took place during WWII... Here we go: a) 5 Billion Euros for all the damage caused during Greece's neutrality right before WWII, b) 51 Billion Euros as reparations for WWII, c) 14 Billion Euros for the Occupational Loan with which Germany charged the unable to react Bank of Greece in 1942... These sum up to a total 70 Billion Euros (today's values) without taking into account possible interest rates that Greece could apply. From these 70 Billion Euros Germany gave to Greece 115 million German Marks in 1960. Not included are restorations for victims as well as the destruction of great part of our archaeological and religious treasures! None knows for sure the exact amount of gold stolen but taking into account that Germany charged us with a huge loan, most of our gold must have been drained... When the German occupation was over Greece was left to misery. 900.000 victims, 35% forests destroyed, 90% of industries destroyed, almost total annihilation of communications - roads - railway - maritime. Greece now had a galloping inflation, about 15million times the one we had before the war! These are NOT excuses! These are facts. When we Greeks initiate conversations about who's to blame, we all blame our government and ourselves... We never say "damn you Germans and your reparations"...

And now I've reached the hardest part of my analysis. One that I cannot complete without going political so I ask you to forgive me for doing so...

Unfortunately my dear friends none would understand unless he resides either in Greece or in Turkey... As most of you might know Greece and Turkey have not been in the best terms for the last well couple thousands of years... But how many of you who criticise truly know how many wars Greece and Turkey had for the past 150 years and how many more times we were on the very verge of going to war? None of you... Cause you have no interest in this matter. Turkey invaded Cyprus in 1974... What did the Europeans do? They were staring... In 1996 we were once again on the very brink of war... Huge armies were massing at our borders... How many of you know that? None! And how could you possibly do...? I was there, my friends were there... But you were not... What did the European governments do? You know the answer... How many of you know that there are constant dogfights above Dodecanese (the easternmost islands of Greek-Aegean sea) EVERY single day? None! So spare me the lecture and the mocking please... This is not a result of being brainwashed. We LIVE this situation every passing day. But how could you possibly know such things...? Greece economy indeed resides on tourism, maritime and shipping because our INCAPABLE governments NEVER took advantage of our natural resources... And what are these natural resources you might ask... Oil at northern Aegean, Uranium (yes, you read correctly) at Northern Greece, and Gold allover Central and Northern Greece... Honestly now... What makes you think that Turkey wouldn't invade...? The European governments...? Come again... The United States...? Haha... They love the Turks... Why should they interfere... Greece might seem politically stable (for the moment at least) but in Turkey things are slightly different... Turkey's army would love to go on a coup d' etat... They commonly express their fears on how politicians behave... And then who is to guarantee that war is not an issue...

I can go further on and analyse anything I've written on my post but I know I have already bored you and some even curse... Thus I ought to apologise for my long post!

PS: Ossipena... I do feel sorry for you... And unfortunately I cannot help it... Insulting a nation the way you did WITH NO REASON AT ALL, MAKES me feel that way...

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

For all euro countries (in german, staatsverschuldung=Goverment debt of gdp%, haushaltsdefizit=deficit)

http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploa...debt201005.png

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

overlord very nice analysis , well done

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

From this analysis it looks like Italy is in a worse position. Right?

Whole of Europe is on minus!!

This does not look good ... if more countries start having problems ... maybe theres a new global war brewing??

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

Italy must be one of most laid back countries in EU...that is both their strenght and weakness :)

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

No, it has lot of debt but deficit is relatively low. Italy also has huge economy. It will likely be the last of Club Med to fall, if the crisis spreads. (Greece-->Portugal-->Spain-->Italy).

Also there's no way to bail out Italy. It's simply too big.

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

so whats happening in greece now? will food, cars and houses be cheeper or more expensive?

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

Well the truth is that although VAT is about to be increased for the second time in two months, the prices should get lower... Not much, but still... If the enterprises and companies are to live through this crisis they are to lower their prices...

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

Well, i was working active against the Euro here in Sweden. The socialist left party here in Sweden predicted this outcome. I am pretty happy the people listened to us and voted no.

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

I'm not an expert in economics or finances, but I cannot understand how could immigrants or hot climate make some country (or person) to spend more money than it makes.

Country finance minister should know how much income country has (taxes collected and other income) and on long run should not spend more (pension, public sector, defense, etc.).

And with all immigrants Greece has still very high GDP per capita, so I guess its economy doesn't crumble.

My opinion about current Greece (or any other country) situation - it's all about cash flow. If country is spending more money than it makes, it can either increase income or lower spending.

And this is probably not Greece financial bailout but rather German, France, Swiss and other banks bailout. Greece dept to those banks will be simply replaced by dept to other EU countries.

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

Hot climate was just a joke... Although it really is extremely hard to work in mid-July...

And as far as the immigrants are concerned... Easy... Millions of Euros leaving the country...

The problem is not what the government should do right now... But that they've stolen in a course of 35 years more than our economy could handle...

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

Immigrants normaly don't take money it gives money. It depends what you do with them. Sweden got more that 1,5 million immigrants and we are far from crumbeling. I think the Irak war gave us about 20 000 more imigrants within a year. (Sweden was the country in europe that took the most from Irak). Also the people in Sweden are getting older.. so we need a lot more immigrants than we have now.

Sure at the beginning it might cost little but later this immigrants start working and pay taxes. So if immigrants are your problem then you are doing something really really wrong.

I am not sure but Greece are or have been a tourist economy. Meaning a big income have been from tourist visiting the country. Now with the Euro things have become more expensive and less tourist are drawn to come. Thus more ppl in Greece are unemployed and the state lose tax income.

Edit: Ohh.. and try working when it is 30 degrees below zero outside ;)

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

I am sorry but I wasn't philosophical. I was only practical.

A bit like I can't buy porsche, lamborghini, ferrari and köeningsegg because I don't have money. Where the money to pension system then appears if not from overall productivity?!?

And you totally missed my point with 2008. Now all are referring that the current situation was known already in 2008. Warning signs are everywhere all the time. If you react to each, you probably die to stress in couple months...

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

no one said that. I only said you can pay pension in ratio to productivity. You can do otherwise temporarily, but someone has to pay the bill.

Yes I know summertime (worked in block house smashing concrete in summer, temperature was somewhere between 30-40 degrees and visibility about half meters), dont you know what winter in Finland means? -30C and still some jobs must be done outside...

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

exactly. immigrants are only lousy excuse for the Greeks.

Yesterday in a local talk show a greek guy suggested they should shoot every immigrant. In civilised states no sane person would suggest anything like that.....

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

yes, you just went to the corner to suck your thumbs.

what Finland did? paid the 300 million gold dollars (~$400M at 1944.. it would mean something like $4964M) to soviet union. Germans burned Lapland, all major cities bombed (obivously no help from soviet union...).

Greece was among winners so they got far more better deals with reparations. Finland was a looser.


And keep in mind that according to you Greeks are screwed because they didn't get all the ridiculous sums from Germany, Finns are doing ok and they paid $5B to soviet union....

e: $5B = about 4 billion €

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

You do know that war is good for the economy? Sure the human sacrafice is enormous but so are the profit for the businesses. There will be a hugh build up that would make more profit than what ever was taken before. So the time that have been after the WWII should have made Greece richer not poorer. Not initially but after a while... So it is impossible blaming WWII for Greeces situation now.

The Olumpics surly made a big chunk in the states purse though..

Re: Greece financial bailout, and the mood of other Euro users.
 

No politics please.

(I would love to discuss with you!)