Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

Anything that requires finer precision than is possible with a finger really. Other use cases include selections (graphics and/or text), hitting a link in the browser without having to zoom first or even the stylus virtual keyboard (for those who have been around long enough to remember it).

I'm firmly on the stylus side. Fingers provide very crude accuracy, make the screen dirty and obscure what you're trying to interact with. On the other hand most of us have opposable thumbs, are trained to use them and prefer using a pen or pencil over finger painting most of the time, even (especially) when writing on a small surface like a tiny notebook, cheque or post-it note.

The only UI area where fingers have an advantage over the stylus is the "pressing a button" use case (like when dialing a phone number), but in those cases actual physical buttons would be much better anyway.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

Long live the stylus! As long as I need to click on that tiny 'fullscreen' icon on websites, stylus would be my first choice rather than a finger.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

Hybrid touchscreens are the best of both worlds. They have a capacitive layer over resistive layer, or vice versa. Most manufacturers are just too cheap to implement them.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

I acknowledge that I'm distorting the original point somewhat...

But it depends on how it is being measured. In amount of bits, digital still and video cameras probably take the lead.

And for capacitive screens, one can always use the sausage to cure the lack of stylus.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

I use my stylus 90% of the time. Ive grown up with a dell Axim where it was needed. Its not really needed on the N900 but i like it. I feel more comfortable with it.

I want that choice.

Hell i dont care if the device comes without a stylus but i want a slot where it can be stored easily. I'll pay the extra couple of pounds to buy one. but its no use if there no where to store it.

Basically put im never gonna buy a device without a stylus so why lose my sale. no one is forcing others to use it but give me the choice.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

yeah i will. i take it out almost instinctively. plus it doent leave dirty fingerprints all over the screen


Especially as i often use my phone over lunch at work. somtimes very messy hand. Using my stylus gets my basic plastic low cost stylus in a mess as opposed to curry etc all over my complex expensive phone.

There are many times and people for whom stylus free is just perfect. Ive got no gripe with that.

Apples problem is they decide that their narrow view of a Stylus that should never be needed or wanted is the only view and use there fantastic marketing to persuade people that there view is the correct one and the only sane one. Refusing to accept that other may choose to differ and are not mad for doing so

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

I can use the phone app on the N900 just fine one-handed, and I've seen plenty of people using iPhones one-handed. Web browsing in portrait mode works pretty well one-handed as well, if you're lucky enough to have text that fits on the narrow screen. I just wish there was a portrait-mode on-screen keyboard.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

@benny:
I almost never use my iphone 2 handed, except when I need to type something quickly (or playing games). Otherwise I can type with 1 hand (thumb) on it too. I think only newbies use iphone the way as they show it in the tutorials (one hand holding, the other pointing).

@juise:
the sausage (or the similar ones) suck. It just changes your movement to be similar as you would with a pen, without any added precision. I do have the Pogo sketch stylus.

random replies:
3.5" is too small for writing

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

@benny I also never use my iPhone with two hands. Hold in palm, use thumb, flick as needed with thumb. I can do that, while traveling and holding something in my other hand... much like I tend to do.

I had to pull out my N810 on my last trip, then the stylus... and I was using both hands unable to hold my bag, so I had to set that on the floor while on an airport shuttle. It made for an awkward time, but I needed to get where the heck I had parked quickly.

While both styles have merits, I tend to use my iPhone for quick stuff with one hand - contacts, dialing, answering, notes, looking up stuff, browser... one handed.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

Well I noticed one really important use case yesterday. Was having some coffee and eating a donut. Not that good to use the phone with sticky fingers, but stylus works great. I just need to wipe my stylus not the whole phone :)

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

Stylus requires 2 hands.

With a finger friendly phone, you can manipulate the screen one handedly, while you enjoy your donut with the other one.... Officer.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

Pardon me <insert title here>, but the precision of my thumb is rather inadequate. I hardly ever use the phone with only one hand. And using only your thumb is tad awkward in tablet mode. That's just _my_ opinion.

edit:
I seem to be a bit slow today. I didn't get the officer joke the first time :)

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

I think UI's etc. in personal devices should be designed so, that you never need the stylus for basic functionality.

Scribbling and drawing programs are the only programs where I would accept stylus input.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

@chainreaction:
hehe, i'm not american myself.. but their lifestyle memes are just too strong! <insert references to hollywood>

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

I agree with you. UI really should be designed that way. But no matter how the design is made, there is no single way to use a device. Even though it'd be great that everything is usable with one hand I'd still use two hands every time when/if possible. Therefore for my usage scenarios using a stylus is a good extension. I would not want to use my phone with stylus only input.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

- a stylus does not cover what you are interacting with (plus a good portion of the screen)

The not distinctive, but also present advantages:
- it's faster to peck with a stylus than with a finger
- less smudges

I still don't see why people think it's an advantage to be able to use just one input method and not two. As if the presence of a physical stylus somehow implies it is not finger usable (hello marketing hype).

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

I'm going to use the iphone as an example here. In order to zoom in you have to pinch the screen. you can't do that with one hand.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

double-tap to zoom is implemented practically on any elements that makes sense to be zoomable..

..and I've found their implementation of zoom-to-<div> in the browser to be more consistent and reliable than the one on Microb... here's hoping to PR1.2...

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

no

i bite my nails but use the little pad of skin at side of my nail.
it actually works the same on capacitive and resistive.

i strongly dislike splodging entire finger pad to try and hit a link or something
so frustrating

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

I've been using stylus-only PDAs for a decade, and I still think they're way faster to manipulate than finger based UIs.

On the other side lately I've been mostly using my finger with my N900... probably for fear of scratching the currently unprotected screen :)

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

I've skimmed the topic to the limit of my patience (I have warm food waiting), but I use my stylus a lot when surfing.

You can make an app finger-friendly, but designed-for-huge-screens-and-mice websites will not work. In addition to drawing, writing, ported apps, apps where multiple touch points are needed (like CAD, Untangle), office apps (move cursor between letters, choose a cell in a spreadsheet), as well as any app ever to actually need the screen space.

E.g., a spreadsheet app is dead if it can only display 12 cells, and then make room for menu, changing sheets, scrollbars, function editing window, etc. Graphs. Wizards.

Basically anything that's complex in UI needs small controls. And precision. And the ability to see what you click, not everything has a "You sure you want to click button 32? Not 31? Not 33?".

Get a mouse cursor that's 1/8 the size of your screen and where the actual touch point randomly jumps about half that, add some screen calibration errors and see how that works for your productivity.

My finger fits without touching about 5 times wide and 3+ times narrow side. This translates on my actual PC screen to 1920/5 (~400 px) and 1200/3.5 (~350 px).

This roughly the size of Maemo Org's quick reply box, arrowed down once.

I don't want that as my pointer, no matter what optimizations OS or apps have.

Already Maemo has widgets smaller than their close button. Already I close instead of drag.

And then there's the little issue of the finger never having a constant pressure point. It's easy to stay withing a 5 pixel long-press. With a finger, you drag. So you have a 30 pixel drag limit so now you can't drag a little.

I had a touch screen on my PC. Threw it away, now it's gathering dust in a corner. All of a sudden, my PC felt like it was 320x240 again.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

http://store01.prostores.com/truetip...fs_svt_200.jpg

:)

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

I think there are a few jumbled up 'sides' in this debate... mostly because of the current technology limitation and current product associations in the market, for better or worse.

IMHO, the main opposing camps are:

Finger friendly vs Stylus-centric

- Capacitive screens can only cater to finger-friendly UI implementations.
- (Recent?) Resistive screens can cater to both, as can be seen on the N900.
- Finger UI usually accompanied with multi-touch gestures, which resistive screens can't provide.

From all those variables above, the main players have made their own (still evolving) implementations.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

But the n900 touchscreen is not as responsive. Doing any serious typing with the VKB is a waste

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

@nosa101: yes, i forgot to write that down... this whole subject is a jumble of juxtaposed elements which isn't that fun to separate -.-

resistive screens aren't as sensitive as capacitive ones and they don't support multi-touch, both of which are necessary for a good on-screen touchtyping operation...

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

I use stylus for dragging mostly.
I haven't found touch screen (resistive nor capacitive) slippery enough not to rip skin of my index finger while dragging items...

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

You're just spreading a (common) myth...

http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/27/s...ere-awed-agai/

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

By the way (hope is good subject to ask about this, I don't want to create separate for this question) regarding to this debate finger/stylus , resistive/capacitive how useful for you guys is screen protector in each case?

For me completely destroyed enjoyment of interaction with device.
(I'm using invisibleShield) I bet will remove it soon. Fingers/stylus is to much sticky. Original N900 surface is just ideal for this type of screen IMHO.

Don't you think this kind of protection should be factory standard?

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

@smoku: yea, i've heard of stantum for a few months already. Unfortunately I haven't heard of any real products with stantum screens. So I've no idea what their real performance is like. For the time being, I haven't found any resistive screens that provide good performance for onscreen-keyboard touch typing..

@devu: i hate invisible shield type protector too... though they're tough like ******. they're especially nasty if you use them with a sharp-ish stylus. they stick and fold around the tip of the stylus...
I use matte-protectors on my devices (iphone, ipad... i don't use the n900 much, so it's nude).

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

You just answered your own question. If the protector would make the screen better, it would be added by manufacturer.

I've never used one.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

I don't need an article to convince me that the stylus isn't dead. Forget about what developpers want, we're talking about the general public. Capacitive screens are the future and you don't need to bring up specific reasons why the stylus is still usefull because I'll bring up 20 to prove that it's more of a nuissance.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

Thanks guys, shame I didn't ask before I bought this s***.

Going back to the subject.
From my short experience playing with N900 screen.
3 months ago operating on iPhone screen was pleasure for me (usually in Apple store ;) ) but after I get N900 I had a funny situation.
My friend visited me week ago with his IPhone. Asked me to type in some details using VKB. I couldn't. He was looking at me like at stranger from different planet. But I was sitting in a bit inconvenient position and I couldn't pres a button! I felt strange myself. My first impression was like, he has locked keyboard or something.

So I figured out why. N900 learned me how precise can be and very often when I am to lazy to use stylus I am using my nails. As smoku pointed this out for dragging items it's just natural reaction lifting my finger now to horizontal position.

Another one situation, my another one colleague with N95 (no experience with touch screen) couldn't touch any button on my N900.

Of course in both examples I am talking about first impressions and attempts to try. So to addition to technology there is also aspect of who get use to which solution I think. If you are iPhone user your 1st impression can push you back but don't be surprised that it work other way around as well. For me precision matter. How could I play with OpenTTD on iPhone? I have no idea is any brave man to port this kind of game to iPhone ;)

Very often here you argue that this type of screen can be useful only for 3 things: hand writing, drawing and manipulating small items. I would like to highlight here something.

Small items... we already talking about ENTIRE web. This content nobody will redevelop for you because of iPhone.
For N900 doesn't need to.

You can say but I can zoom in. Sure you can, I don't have to :)

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

I guess about 1000000000 chinese would disagree with you, if they ever want to write anything with their mobile device.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

Did you actually buy an n900? If so, you're probably in the top 5 worst consumers to ever visit this site.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

@devu: on small items, particularly full-sized web pages, I would say the main difference is mobility. For a mobile device, it's only natural to have many use cases where the user is not confined to standing still or sitting down.

For the effort and time that you spend manipulating the stylus (with both hands tied to this process) and trying to click something that I assume is on the edge/outside of the normal ergonomic envelope on a 3.5" screen; a finger-friendly interface can accomplish the same with one hand and an additional click or two.
ie: on the iphone, you double tap on the areas that you need to zoom in and you can click on the intended button; all under 1s. all this can be done while your other hand is preoccupied with something else and the user not having to stop or sit down....

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

Here, you can also double tap to do the same thing. I can't see the lack of this functionality while I'm on the way but still I can use my nail to determine better precision. Maemo Interface itself doesn't force me to use stylus at all. But when I will sit down waiting for my plain in comfy chair I can enjoy better precision.

I don't really understand pointing out the GUI design regarding to the screen technology. I believe designers did the best for each. Capacitive screen is trendy only because of iPhone. From GUI designer and developer point of view has more restriction and limitation. It's impossible to develop more sophisticated GUI for strategy games for example when you have a lot of options and windows.

Typical GUI designer looking at limitations of the technology and saying.. Ok let's see what we can do on 3,5 inch screen when finger is a pattern. Not to much really. And believe me I know what I am taking about. I am facing this dilemma now during my work on cross platform WebOS. Trying to do finger friendly navigation for devices without stylus in mind anyway. More I am thinking and solving issues related to this I see the bigger advantage of having stylus jut in case.

As GUI designer I also have to say, Maemo GUI designers are did amazing job here. I understand that portrait mode is something missing for many people. But this can be done by software implementation. But the way how whole GUI functioning was dictated to technical aspects of this platform and its clear if you are stop for a while and ask yourself why, or did you could develop this better way? If so, how.. oh no, because that solution could cause that problem and so on, all will be clear.

I'm not saying that iPhone GUI has been designed bad way. No!
It' good for this technology for sure. but as for GUI designer N900 has less limitations so... more possibilities. Is it not good reason enough?

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

We developped a very nice solution for Opera Mobile and Mini UI.
If you tap a webpage and your "tap area" hits several links, you are presented with a menu asking which link you wanted to activate.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

Because overlap and concavity don't exist, the simple "nearest object center" policy used in virtual keyboards is all that's needed. When object dimensions aren't very uniform, some simple edge heuristics can be applied to penalize wide/tall objects, and reward thin/short objects. The dark classic theme of this site is a good example: Very small image links right next to large text links. Zooming and popups wouldn't be necessary, and users would quickly be trained to aim for the center of all links.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

"This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope."

Motorola MT810 Ophone to sport both capacitive and resistive digitizers, makes TV cameo

I can't tell from the pictures if it has a stylus holder.

Re: Why the stylus isn’t dead
 

On a related note (not deserving a thread on its own), "the iPad has just gotten a little more magical."

http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/09/m...ursory-cursor/

A mouse is no stylus, but an improvement nonetheless...