Re: Reliability of the N800
 

If you do not care if it is linux or palm or whatever why did you buy the n800? There are tons of devices out there, This is only device of its kind out there? You compare it to things that are not the same. It is not a palm, its not an organizer. Its not windows mobile, nor did it ever intend to be. It is not a UMPC, it is a "internet tablet". I agree that the email client sucks, I agree, that the web experience is not the best. These things can be determined in minutes, so again, I am unsure what exactly you thought you were getting? The fact that you are upset about syncing software to me verifys the fact you purchased the wrong product. It is a device that is targeted at keeping you in touch. It keeps me in touch with what I want to use it for. Again if you do not like it, I still think you should have mailed it back and gotten your money back. I purchased a phone from Nokia direct and kept it 2 days and mailed it back because I did not like it. You are the master of your destiny. I am not a developer, I could not code hello world, but I can read, and I have a very good understanding of computers and Linux. I was not trying to dump on you, but merely point out that you should put a little more effort into determining what you purchase and verify it will meet your needs. If like you say you make enough money to not worry about it, I can not understand why you are so upset about your mistake, and perhaps maybe invest a little more next time and get a umpc.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

@penguinbait,

Good post but let's forget the "send it back" stuff, as I said, I live in Finland and that does not fly.

However, I did do some research on the device and the flaws are not actually apparent until you hold the device in your hand and start to use it. Then the flaws come screaming to the foreground. Anyway, it is okay. I lived, I learned. No worries.

BTW, the reason I have money, is because I seldom waste it. This was not actually a waste, but I could see myself buying it maybe 6 months from now when it is a bit more mature and more applications are there for it.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

I would also dispute the assertion that Internet Tablets (770 & N800) are "designed for developers" as that's not true at all.

Internet Tablets will work - mostly - out of the box as designed, but if you want to get the best out of them you need to put the time in and learn a few basic skills, however you don't need to be a programmer/developer - just someone willing to put in the required effort (reading, learning and do-ing - having a PC available with Linux or a LiveCD is handy too!)

Internet Tablets are not unlike Windows Mobile devices in this regard as even Windows Mobile expects you to learn an awful lot of cr@p about obscure apps/shareware that you need to download in order to get the full benefits out of the crippled OS. However with the Internet Tablets you can do an awful lot more hacking *yourself* than you ever can on a Windows Mobile device. For some, this means Internet Tablets are more fun, while for others it's too much like hard work and may put them off entirely (which is totally understandable).

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

@Penguinbait:

1st, we don't have a return policy here. 2nd, I purchased the device as an quick-online-web-checking kind of a thing were a laptop would be to much trouble. I've read quite a few reviews before deciding to buy one. That's the reason I didn't buy an N770 in the first place! And thats's why I said I was dissappointed. It's not the 'quick-online bla bla' thing I thought it would be.
I am a bit of a gadget freak, I have a lot of them lying around. Most of them work as designed/marketed, but the N800 clearly does not. My girlfriend for instance cannot use the device like it's suppose to:

"It says: Internet Browser closed unexpectedly, did I do something wrong"? No dear, you have to start it up again, and try again. Eventually it'll work. I think...

"It says: Weather updating. But I can't start anything."
Oh, just power cycle it, that's normal...

etc etc

Sorry, but that's not a market ready device. She won't even touch it now and starts up the laptop instead.

Tweaking/hacking the device won't cure problems like that.
As for the device being Linux: the problem here is stability. That has nothing to do with the OS at all. I hate Windows Mobile, and yet, it always does what I expect it to do. It doesn't crash/hang/freeze/reboot/bad touch screen on me. Ever. Like my (antique) Palm, my gameboy, my celular phone, my calculator and a lot more portable devices. They are flawed, but work as aspected.

This thing isn't stable. Not even close. Period. Don't start discussing wether or not I should've bought it in the first place, that's not the point here.

I agree: new users should test this device. A good device sells itself. A bad device doesn't.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

We have to agree to disagree. This is by no means a finished product and anyone reading this site for the first or second time will see that for the most part only developers are here in mass.

Exactly. How many users happen to have a PC with Linux or a LiveCD laying around just waiting to be put to use working on an N800. That made little or no sense. I will say I have learned some skills from the time I put in. I can reboot, remove the battery and take mine back to Nokia for a new one with the best of them.

I would be willing to bet that most people that purchase these devices @ retail prices are looking for a device that works out of the box, minus the fun part of hacking. I know for me, and speaking only for myself, that I just want it to do what I need it to do. I could not care more about hacking and having unfinished software, or buggy software, or software that crashes my device. In regards to this product, I just want it to work. If I need to play with things, I have an Xbox, a couple Macs, some cameras, etc.... You are quite correct though in stating that it can be like hard work. Luckily for me, someone was kind enough to help me install some things and to make my experience a bit more enjoyable, but all in all I wish I had kept my money and bought a new lens or something.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

It is a cliche that users who want a guarantee that their product will be stable don't buy an early version. This was commonplace knowledge back in the days of Windows 98, let alone now. I cannot count the number of people who have pointed that out over the years.

After the latest upgrade I find my N800 to be quite stable and useful.

I am not a developer.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

I'll second that.

(I won't react to "you stupid early adopter, you"-like remarks as I have pointed my opinion out already.)

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

I'm not a developer, and I'm a Linux newbie but so far my N800 experience has been positive. Maybe I'm just lucky, but mine has been 99% stable with the factory installed firmware (It randomly rebooted once when I left GAIM running one time) and haven't had any issues with the latest firmware so far. I agree that it isn't as polished as it could be, but web browsing is much better than any WinMo device I have used. I would try the latest firmware and see if that fixes your reliability problems. If you don't want to take the time to download a Linux live cd to install the firmware, then don't and use the Windows installer they just released (http://europe.nokia.com/A4305010). I don't know how well that installer works as I actually wanted to use the Linux flasher to learn how to use the terminal in Linux. Took about a minute to flash the device after downloading the latest firmware.

I have these apps installed on mine and most of them work fine:

Canola
Maemo Mapper
Kismet (a little buggy)
Aircrack-ng (a little buggy)
GPE Suite
Maemo Periodic
GAIM
FBReader
FM Radio
OMWeather
Load Applet
Xterm
Minimo (buggy)
Midnight Commander
MPlayer (a little buggy)
Maemo Stars
Maemo Recorder
MaemopadPlus

Prior to owning my N800 I had practically zero Linux experience as I have been mainly a Windows guy. I haven't had any major issues with installing/configuring things, then again I'm willing to put a little time into reading the instructions/ and or guidance of people on this forum. As a gadget lover myself I am amazed at the potential this device has. Name a WinMo device that can support 2 SDHC cards (albeit with a custom kernel right now), has the wireless sensitivity the N800 has, and the battery life. If they ever get USB OTG working I'll be in heaven as I can forget lugging my laptop around to backup pictures from DSLR's memory cards. With 32GB SDHC cards expected to arrive later this year I will have 64GBs of drive space in the palm of my hand and probably double that a year later.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

I just want to point out that you seem to be blaming Nokia for the flaws in a third-party application. The Weather app you refer to (OMWeather, for example, is known to be somewhat buggy) is not Nokias responsibility - you agreed to this when you accepted the dialog prior to installing the app. The browser on the other had *is* Nokias responsibility, but I actually find it quite stable.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

Utter b0llox!

I imagine most (but certainly not all) will have a PC or compatible and to download a LiveCD is not a big deal - that requirement is no different to Windows Mobile where a PC is mandatory to install pretty much ALL software! That's why I said users need to put in some effort - if you're not willing to put in even a little effort to download a 50Mb ISO and burn it to a CD then the N800 is NOT for you. Stick to a Sony PSP, Nintendo DS or Windows Mobile.

If you don't want to hack - and no one is forcing you - then I believe the N800 *does* work out of the box for general web surfing, it's raison d'etre. Yes, RSS and email are cr@p, and the reboot loops should now be fixed with the latest firmware. And if you install any additional non-Nokia software on the N800 and experience problems, simply reflash (Windows or Linux) and go back to the Nokia provided out-of-box experience - Nokia are not responsible if you install buggy software.

I repeat, if you lack even the most basic computing skills and are incapable of learning then the N800 is not for you.

+1 vote :)

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

Just chiming in, me being the crack-pot developer an'all ;) : You don't even need a live CD. A copy of Vmware Player and the default Ubuntu image will do nicely. No need even to shut down the pc.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

I understand and agree with much of the frustration here. However, many of the counterpoints have validity too. Your statement that the N800 is "never" stable is just flat wrong. It is far too subjective a remark to be cast out that broadly.

Nokia is feeling out this market, and has certainly made some unfortunate missteps. However, there is also a significant good faith effort being out into rectifying shortcomings. There will be more going forward. There will be more hits, and more misses.

Anyone who has ever been an early adopter understands these things. You made a choice to be an early adopter, and that requires research on your part rather than leaping into a purchase you may not be ready for. I'm not trying to be harsh, just stating objective reality. I can sympathize with you on specific issues, such as what app was broken by what OS update, but I cannot sympathize with your broad rant. If the device doesn't seem ready for you, then you were not ready for the device. That's how it goes in the early stages.

If the next iteration garners the same reaction, then I will concede you have a point-- but I believe Nokia is learning from this experience.

I strongly suggest to the general public that everyone perform due diligence before making this sort of investment. There are certainly enough formal reviews, and definitely enough info here in this forum to aid potential purchasers in making an informed decision. Google is your friend. Take advantage of it.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

The point was and is: the device is flawed and some of us think that that's not something you might expect from a €400,- device.
And that's something you agree to or not. But why people start discussions in this thread about 50Mb's ISO's I can't understand.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

Agreed. Well, the device is marketed as an Internet Tablet. So it's 'core business' is Internet browsing. Let me rectify my broad remark a bit then:

The Internet browsing on the N800 can't be called stable.

Would be buyers should try one before they make the purchase. Like I said, a good device sells itself. That's not a rant but quite reasonable I think.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

My point exactly. How many of you developers out there paid the full retail price for the N800? I would guess not many, however those that do expect a bit more. Since I have had my new N800 (my second), and after upgrading. It has rebooted itself once while watching a video. Now I am wondering, was it the video that caused this, was it the upgraded software, was it the moon streaking across the sky, or sea tides. No idea. The thing is, for the money, more is expected.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

As Texrat said - it's an early adopter device, something you would have discovered had you investigated prior to purchase. The fact you are not willing to accept it as such suggests you are not an ideal candidate for an early adopter device - your mistake. The device is not perfect, but not entirely flawed either - but then if you were expecting a perfect device you'll be lucky to find that from any manufacturer.

As for the 50MB ISOs... sigh.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

That "developer" chip you have on your shoulder must be causing you considerable mobility problems.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

As I pointed out to Karel a while back (and received his wrath for it :D) that's still at least somewhat subjective. I've had some other functionality and stability issues but my internet experience has been almost flawless IF the novel stuff is ruled out (java, Flash 9, etc). Yes, I realize those are mainstream tools but I shouldn't need to deal with them for the bulk of my internet use, and don't. I can live without Youtube on my tablet. Easily. In fact, there's only one website that currently frustrates me and that's www.wellsfargo.com, since it depends on java. So until that changes I'll do my banking on my desktop PC and use the tablet for everything else-- including ebay, cnn, my investment broker, the occasional food recipe, google, instant messaging and of course this forum. ;)

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

:D ROFL!

Mil, that was one of the wittiest snaps I've seen on this forum.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

I get around quite fine. In fact I work with developers everyday and I don't have to change their diapers at all. Hmmmm......maybe they are more mature........Anyway, as my question went unanswered, it is possible to assume that I am correct in my statement. Game, set, match.

Second, before I bought the Holy Grail of Tablets, I did do research. Read reviews, talked to people that have it. The reviewers maybe didn't play with it long enough to have to send theirs back. Something to make note of next time, "how long did you have it".

Anyway, this is going round and round. You have your opinion, and I have mine. Who cares? The only way to be proven right will be determined by the units shipped an the revenue generated.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

Since I started this little bit of entertainment maybe I can "end" it.

I bought the N800 last Friday. After using it for the weekend and Flashing the new software I can understand both sides.

Coming from a Windows background and having owned a Windows PDA for the past few years I can already see that the unit is not as finished as "Windows Mobile" is. Of course that PDA software went through 4 or 5 different builds, each one requiring the user to buy another unit before getting to the current version. Upgrades never did work right, which is why I am willing to change.

I hope Nokia will NOT continue that practice but will develop this product into a finished product. I see that the Linux undercarrage is more complex than needed, Linux Geeks aside, ie it took a lot of searching to even fine where the storage cards were.

The N800 has a lot of promise that I am hoping will be fullfilled. If so the money will be well spent, if not, then my current worry of mis-spent finances will come back to haunt me.

To the group of developers the unit is probablely great, offering a NEW device to play with. I am very thankful for the FREE software that is offered, and try to be patient and understanding of each author that uses his spare time to write usable software.

The file system seems to be the hardest to understand for me and I can understand how a new user would just throw up his hands and woe the day they bought the N800. The many different ways software can (or must) be added and which libraries MUST be added first, overwelm me.

I see that NOOBIE's like me need more appreciation of the developers, and in turn the developers need more understanding of those of us that just want a useable unit and don't program ourselfs.

We all spend our money and take our chances. Now I need to find a good Bible reader and figure out how to load it, and hope VLC, Mortplayer, and uBook will be ported over!:D

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

Excellent post remjax. I think your faith will be rewarded. ;)

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

I think I saw a Bible reader available. Sorry but I can not remember the link. If I find it, I will forward it to you.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

Dude, if you think that was my wrath, you'll be in for a nasty surprise the day I get angry with you. (and may that day be in the far, far future, when pigs fly, with friggin' lasers) :cool:

I still think that calling something an "Internet Tablet", immediately followed by: "... but obviously it doesn't do the novelty stuff", and then calling everything internet-ish the tablet doesn't do "novelty", is not entirely kosher.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

OMG!!!

We have all made purchases we regret. Again while some of the points you are making have inklings of truth, you need to understand that some people are/were dying to get their hands on a linux device, and while you would like to see it dummied down, others enjoy the complexity (if you choose to call it that). I prefer to call it flexibility. I enjoy being able to run an OS that I can alter down to the core, and get it to do exactly what I want. I dreamed of the day when I would purchase a Zaurus and was extremely happy when the n770 was born. While I understand your perspective, you need to understand, that while you need to warn people of your mistake and tell them not to make the same one, you also need to recognize that lots of other people are happy with thier purchases, and happy with Nokia for the most part. And not make blanket remarks about the device as a whole, while you clearly do not understand it.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

I second that!
Nice post and a good way to end it!

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

Hey, we're all entitled to our opinions. ;) But, in all seriousness, you've misconstrued what I said, Karel, taking the remarks farther than they were obviously intended. But then, there's the subjectivity again. :p

(and everything's relative, including the perception of wrath)

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

Reading through this thread a second time I had a flashback to the days of Mike Caine... :D

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

you read it a second time??? :eek: once was enough for me LOL

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

lol... if/when things get dull here we could always lobby for an appearance...

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

We appear to dream similar dreams.

Do you also get the one with the giant bunnies with Uzis and they follow you and the only way out is through a Windows Vista desktop but you don't ever wanna get near that I'll take the Uzis thankyouverymuch...

That's usually when I wake up.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

I still do love my Nokias, but I'm not going to call them Internet Tablets again.

If anything, they're UMPCs, but differently so.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

http://www.myspaceofgames.com/game/1424.html

Description:
Use your two uzi sub machine guns together or separate and gun down those invading robot rabbits.

http://penguinbait.com/gunbun.JPG


This is how I overcame my horrible dreams of evil rabbits!!!:eek:

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

As I recall, there is some kind of Bible reader in the SOFTWARE area linked to on the top right of this site, listed in the Religious category. I don't know if it works...

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

Nope, mine are penguins; with umbrellas. :eek:

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

We can agree again. :p

I think "Internet Tablet" was a very, very wrong name.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

AAAAAARRGHHH!!!!!!

Someone made a game of my nightmare!!!

Blue pill! Blue pill!!!

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

Funnily enough, I collect penguins, but none have ever figured in my nightmares. Weird.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

@remjax

After re-reading your post, I decided to give my N800 one more try. I downloaded Canola, and one or two other apps. Rather than trying to use this as a biz device, I will try it out as a connection/media player (still needs a bit of help)/email (loads needed)/etc.... device.

From this prospective it is not terrible. It is not ready for the mass market but for early adopters and gadget people, it is okay.

Re: Reliability of the N800
 

I returned my second n800 yesterday due too the reboot issue...so i'm on my 3rd one typing this...but i dig the little thing so much i can't give up on it yet...and with the new os update, i might just have stabile one now...fingers crossed...