Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Sorry abill_uk but every post you've posted (I've read your post since the leaked PR1.2 that you have the source code of), you are 99% of the time wrong or you're saying something that has been said at least a thousand times... And what's worse is that according to you.. You're always right and everyone else is wrong...

Why do you think there are warnings everywhere for extras-testing and extras-devel?

Why do you think there's all this testing and voting method here?

And most importantly, why do you think those repositories are named the way they are.. TESTING and DEVEL as in DEVELOPER (only)...

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Well.. THERE IS a complete way of uninstalling and THERE IS a complete way of resetting (i.e. flashing) so i do not know why you are bringing this up. Sure.. in windows the programs do not get fully uninstalled but that doesn't make it true on Linux systems. I had to format my windows drive aprox every 6 month before because of the sluggishness that brought me.

The problem here is people installing programs from devel that are not finished. Thus might break the system. And they are not complaining as they know what they have done. They just need some guidance how to fix it.

You are referring to programs that are not fully uninstalled.. please name one.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

@abill_uk

Take some time and think about what actually happens during installation with a package manager. Then think some more about how one would go about to actually roll it all back to EXACTLY the same state as before the installation.

Not wanting to bog you down with too much thinking, I'll give you some hints:
- The file system keeps track of modification times. This isn't easy to roll back in a sane way. Do you want this too?
- If I install package Foo and then package Bar and realize I want to uninstall package Foo, how should that be handled if both packages have changed the same file?

The package manager relies on a database where every package has to truthfully enter which files it contains. Much of this is done automagically while building the package, but some packages are sneaky. Like the rootsh package, to name one.

If a package is sneaky, there is no way for the package manager to actually uninstall it properly. So, the idea is to test a package, see if it behaves as intended (including uninstall) and then propagate it to more users. If enough testing has been done, it will most likely NOT fsck up your device. If people want to cut the line and get in early, since curiosity is a great driver, it's up to them.

Blaming the community when people install beta software and get into trouble is just counter productive. And yes, you are blaming the community. You won't get new interesting applications on your device by STOPPING the testing that is needed since a stricter test cycle than the one in place already would kill so much enthusiasm.

Wanting to change things because people are stupid is ... stupid.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Most applications don't need this. This is for what the application manager is good for.
Maemo is based on debian and the debian package manager.
No need for an uninstall option in every application.
Can you be a bit more specific. Which application has damage your OS and wouldn't do so if it had an uninstall option. Maybe
we can contact the developer and find a solution.
This is the reason why we are here. And this is the reaseon why developer put their applications in extras-devel,
and why some users are willing to use the extras-devel repository.
This is a very lively process and we have a great community to help and assist developing and testing new applications.

nicolai

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

The warnings are clear enough for anyone capable of using the device.

And no matter what, people ignore highway caution signs, go without safety goggles when doing dangerous work, speed on icy roads and generally do all sorts of stupid $#|+ despite being well aware of the likely outcomes. I'm not in favor of babysitting them all. Let Darwin deal with the ones who refuse to follow safeguards.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Your ranting does not hold any weight whatsoever for many reasons....
the N900 may well be open to a degree but is no way a complete open system as we dont have access to every driver so therefore we cannot deliver clean apps when indeed their is vital driver info missing !.
Engineered for "us" WHO? the N900 for your information is available to everyone in this world and guess what.... just about everyone does indeed buy the N900 frrom geeks to kids so the responsibility as you put it is exactly that , being responsible enough to at least make the apps of our own making un-installable so we can carry on without being subject to uneeded loop and brick situation, ok for you it may well be fun but for others who are not able to put it right its a nightmare.
Finally people like ME are trying to be sensible here and find a way of easy installation UN-INSTALLATION techniques to lesson the problems because of bad development that does not indeed have the much needed un-install files written within the apps.
Now please do explain something to me here... since when does a properly written app that can be UN-INSTALLED in a way that leaves the os as it was before take anything away from a half open system we call the N900?.
For your information also i would hardly call the N900 "most extreme, advanced and raw computer experience" (your words not mine) because it sure does lack many many advanced components available today and for my opinion is a very badly designed mobile device purely from the usb port perspective which will in fact end the design of your "most extreme, advanced and raw computer experience" as Nokia have obviously realised the bloomers they made manufacturing this N900, but thats another story aye so we will try to stay on topic if thats possible?.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

I believe the OP hasn't really understood the concepts of "open software development" and why some repositories remain hidden. I mean obviously if he's gotten most of his files from these forums, then he hasn't figured out enabling the repositories. Therefore he doesn't know about how these apps are developed or just "how things work around here".

The developers on these forums have no responsibility over what their programs do to users' phones, unless they release their software in any other way besides through "testing" and "devel". These forums are a even more murky platform of releasing anything.

You have only yourself to blame for not being informed!

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Then you will have to sift through all the problematic issues software related to find out just what apps are giving problems as i just dont have the time nor the access to every bit of code written for apps to the N900 sorry.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

LOL whats that got to do with a clean un-installable app?.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

abill_uk:
i understand your concerns... for example the unofficial kernel upgrade packages that tinkers with some serious stuff (this happens for example when installing "mobile hotspot" or overclocking apps).

i can see how problems can arise when we finally install the PR1.2 update on top of a kernelmodded n900.


however - the n900 is a raw and advanced computer, and devel/extras is intended for a experienced endbase (just like all the warnings says).
therefore i dont want any moderation regarding what i can install, or not.

but of course its always good if apparent potential dangers are mentioned in the "package description"


n900 is the successor to the n810 and therefore its completly fair to stay on the same advanced path without your proposed moderation of what can be installed and what not.
ure just trying to transform the n900 into another newbie phone (just like the other 1000's phones out there.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

I wish I had this talent.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Hum ... we should also remove the file manager ... someone can lost files by deleting files with it.
Do not forgot to remove the terminal too ... and the delete button on contact list. Ssh should not be available to extras ! it s not for casual users, they can open a security hole by letting with an root/root password.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Comments like this are what make any thread turn into arguments and as i was only asking if it was possible to have an un-install system made possible for the n900 to stop the amount of help needed for people looping and bricking their devices it is now starting to get out of hand as per usual on this forum !!! so i will back out now and let ALL you know it alls argue with eachother because quite frankly sometimes this forum absolutely STINKS !!!.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Please, taking into account that so much actually is open, the parts that are closed are few and far apart.

And I can walk into an auto shop, buy a muscle car and drive insanely fast down the highway. Since I'm not a very good driver, I'll most likely crash and burn. Should the car manufacturer have stopped me from buying the car? From driving that fast?

Responsibility for reading warnings lie at the users. If they ignore the warnings, they crash and burn. Luckily this is not as bad as with a car...

There already is a system in place to handle uninstallation of packages: The package management system. By using this, there is little need for every developer to actually think about the special cases and just be good at describing the dependencies properly. You will only get more trouble if every developer has to think about writing uninstallation scripts.

See above...

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Abill_uk, what point of extras-devel you do not understand? The whole idea of devel => testing => extras process is to get these problems that you talk about fixed.

If you don't understand the process please do not install devel/testing applications.

And please, give name of one or more applications that bork the device. With that information the problems can be fixed. Simple as that. Please do not spread more FUD about "some applications" seriously damaging the OS. When installing devel or testing apps the user acknowledges this. Or can you name an extras app that kills the OS after uninstallation? That information would be valuable.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Uhm ... do not feed the troll

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

abill_uk:
n900 is the successor to the n810 and therefore its completly fair to stay on the same advanced path without your proposed moderation of what can be installed and what not.
ure just trying to transform the n900 into another newbie phone (just like the other 1000's phones out there.

chainreaction:
excellent post! :-)

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

In my opinion what you are stating is only your opinion, not necassarily a fact (though maybe it is true).

To prove a problem you should give some information about the size of the problem. This could be in the form of a count of bricked devices, types of user(advanced, average, beginner, ...),etc. From here you count how many times and which applications have bricked the device.

Armed with this information you can start asking "why" (enough times) there were problems in those situations and the solutions will present by themselves..

Without the facts, you don't know if you're solving a problem or creating a new one.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

who's going to test it then?!? all testers must compile the app for themselves? :D

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Abill_uk please go read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Packaging_Tool

Stop comparing windows and linux they are completly different. This is why 90% of us are here i.e. linux is what we want, not stupid OS that requires 100 times to click next and on which we have little or no control. Linux in most cases don`t need whatever it is UNINSTALLTION linux have package managers (apt, yum)
If we follow your strange logic the next most important topic here will be DON`T go in the tube with n900 it will brick your device.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Quite frankly I don't see others arguing that much apart from when you start posting.

Perhaps you might point me to any apps you have developed so we can see how you do it?

or perhaps you might point to any apps you have helped fund their development?

Which apps have you tested and fed this "bricking" back to the developer to help contribute to the open development process?

Coming onto a forum spouting rubbish without any specific examples or providing useful content and then blaming everyone else for your limited usefulness is the very definition of a troll.

rgds

ps. don't bother ranting back at this, not re-posting here nah nah ne nah nah!

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

The problem was that you came with accusations and wrongly assumptions how to solve a problem that do not exist. And then you continue to make the same mistake throughout the thread. Instead of argue about this you should have admitted that you where wrong.

edit: By a no existing problem i do not mean that people will not fck up their devices. Because that they will.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

C'mon man, be a sport...

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

abill_uk, it's simple - you got a choice of staying safe with less apps or go bleeding edge with exras-devel.
You get a warning about danger, if you don't take it too serious - it's your own problem. There is to many people in this world to hold their hand for them.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

does anyone have the numbers for extras-devel downloads? vs bricked n900's as a result of devel downloads? and i mean permanently bricked, not having a day off til it gets reflashed.
i'm sure these figures would speak for themselves, there are plenty of warnings. if you're the kind of person who ignores every warning without understanding it then having to reflash might just be the kick up the *** you need to pay more attention. and thankfully unlike many other phones the n900 is pretty good at coming back from the dead!

don't try and hinder peoples love of exploration just because some of the sillier ones get lost occasionally, they'll be guided home if they drop us a line, albeit with a little impatience now and again...

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

hehe i find this thread really amusing

spend a lot of dollars on a phone -a weeks wages some would say and the software is up to sh,t -the fact is the whole concept of phone /computer is ....up to sh.t......toys for boys

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

I think abill_uk has a point. People here insist that "apt-get --purge remove" solves all probelms, but does it really?

I'm no expert in building dpkg packages, but as creating them can involve some manual work there exists the possibility of errors. Or are the .debs in Maemo repos systematically smoke tested as for installing/uninstalling cleanly? (I think not, as I recall installing some broken packages myself).

It's not that I'd be complaining (no place for that when people are using their free time to provide the stuff, quite the opposite), I just think the notion "as long as apt is used nothing can go wrong", which seems to be the idea behind replies abill_uk is getting, is false.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

It's like every technological device now a days. You have to take risks if you know the software isn't 100% reliable. You may want to learn how to use the device properly and know what you're installing before you just attempt to become the next super-IT with no knowledge whatsoever.

So don't feel pity for those who are too ignorant & rêtarded to realise what they have in their hands.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

How about backing up your system before installing any risky packages, so you're less reliant on the package's maintenance/uninstall scripts?
I mean, these are primarily caused by packages from test/devel repos; so it shouldn't come as a surprise in the first place.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

IMHO, the warning says it all, part in red summarizes this thread.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

what he also said was that until apps are proved worthy for extras they shouldn't be available as an installable package, thats what got my back up!

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

I think a lot of the frustrations here are due to the vague nature of the original post.

There are many skilled, helpful and enthusiastic people here that would be quite happy to spend time looking into potential issues on packages if they were given some clues as to which packages to look at, however given that the OP has stated he is not suffering from any of the issues he is warning about the thread doesn't really have anywhere to go.

I have tried searching t.m.o and can't find any concrete examples of people having problems uninstalling applications (Ignoring overclock threads etc)

Perhaps someone can do better and find evidence of the problem then there could be something to discuss?

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Thedevils1
Point one application _not_ from extra-testing or extra-devel that caused issues with the phone stability. If not please feel free to stop throwing emtpy accusations.
Thank you.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

You, sir or madam, are the definition of "a ******", as in "someone not willing to learn". And you smell like a sock puppet for abill_uk so please drop the spelling mambo.

You continue to sprinkle your verbal offal with "some apps on here" and "so why put them on here" clearly displaying that you haven't spent even a minute understanding what a repository is or what happens when you click on that "Install" button.

With "so why put them on here if ther gonna screw up your fone" you just drive the smell of sock puppetry and ignorance further up all our noses.

Do what the rest of us did: find out how things actually work and take some time and actually read the text in dialogues instead of just clicking "Yes" and "OK".

(And yes, I know I'm giving the troll good stuff to gobble down. It is a lazy Sunday.)

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

if you don't have the time, then please refresh your n900 to stock firmware and all, or sell/give it to someone who would.

sorry, there is limit to spoonfeeding

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

You are defending what a guy who has no idea what he is talking about? Yes there are applications that can damage the phone and there are warnings NOT to use these applications unless you know what you are doing and ready to reflash. If you are having a problem with an application that is not from extra-dev or extra-testing please let us know so the respective application can get better.

It is really simple this thread is pointles your posts are pointless. You want to know why? Because you are not saying _anytinhg_ all I can read is bla bla coz application bla bla my fone bla bla.

If you are scared of bears don`t go into the woods.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

did you learn your lesson? do you now pay more heed to the numerous warnings? do you now pay attention to what you're doing when installing LOADS OF APPS? can you now let those of us who take responsibility for our own actions determine what is a suitable risk for ourselves rather than nannying the adults due to your failure?

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

LOOL. I install a ton of apps and games from extras-devel, but haven't ever had an issue. Probably because I know what I'm doing. If you don't know what's going on, follow the red tape advice thats PLASTERED all over these forums and sites. Do not use the extras testing or devel repos. Pretty simple. Stick with that and you wont have a noob's nightmare experience.

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

are there 35 apps available direct from nokia? afaik any app that doesn't come direct from them has a waning attached!

Re: Beware of some applications available on this forum can seriously damage the os.
 

Then learn the basics of linux - freedoom and open community. No one here owns you or me anything. Saying things like applications broke my n900 will only cause negative opinions towards you. If you are really interested monitor the phone better next time and sent a bug report for the respective app. Being spanish or nigerian or whatever does not excuse you for your english, there are alot of online dictionaries and spellchecker.