Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

I get what you're saying... but to sit there and say to me that "we're the most open" "we contribute the most code" and "we've embraced open source" and you play by archaic, silent rules that have enraged folks to no end in the past... you simply cannot have it both ways.

Nokia is starting to look like a sham in regards to the open source community. They do not contribute the most code - I'm quite sure Google, Novell, IBM, even Microsoft could argue that. They are not as open as the code they swear they support - each and every iteration of Maemo has some very vital and very closed bits.

"Most open" is highly suspect and I've been quiet about that claim - it seems to make Nokia happy to say it, but not do it. And now... you want to publish a wiki, that could only... well, help your effort of making more folks aware that something is actually going on instead of their silence that has so far yielded three things so far:

MeeGo will not be officially supported by Nokia on a recently released phone
MeeGo has no UX that's been shown outside of a few spy shots
Maemo is effectively dead, the last nail was silently placed in and Nokia has not alerted us

I'm quite sure the above will be seen as hyperbole, or sensationalism... but let's be honest. Where is that wrong?

It doesn't matter who the culprit is. If it's Intel, they need to learn that they just cost some attention from the communities that will support them. If it's Nokia, they never knew the community that supported them. If it's the Linux Foundation... they would have said so - I do believe that one.

But as it stands, Nokia is downright clueless. I don't mind being proven wrong. But so far, the rhetoric from those folks is proving me more right than wrong.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Hyperbole or not, Nokia should be taking notes (since this is the impression they're giving and they should be working to prove these "hyperbole" wrong).

So far, it's incredibly difficult for them to be able to argue these points with any confidence or clarity.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

I have to disagree with this point. Does Maemo still work as a functioning OS? Is the community still developing for it? Also I think on multiple occasions Nokia has said that there will be at least a PR 1.3 update.

So I think the word "dead" would qualify as hyperbole in this instance.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

You know... one thing I have noticed is that Nokia has the stance of that they have absolutely nothing to prove to anybody, nor is anybody entitled to any answer from them other than... they have a new piece of hardware to sell them.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Oh, Maemo 5 is wonderful. But once Nokia shifts away from PR1.3, nothing else will happen to Maemo.

I'm still using a Diablo (Maemo 4.1) device. Not once single Nokia device.

PR1.3 will add Qt Mobility and more than likely not much more. There are already WONTFIX items in bugzilla. That's how it started with Diablo to the transition to Fremantle.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

I'm betting those "contribute the most code" statements are wrapped in qualifiers...

- most code for phones!
- most code for email clients!
- etc

Because at the Linux Foundation conference recently, it became very obvious that Google is not contributing much to the phone stack (via Android). I'm betting Nokia and Intel lead there (probably Motorola too).

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

The open OS/closed platform stuff is definitely more than a bit counterintuitive (and counterproductive to boot, no pun intended). So the argument of "we provide the most code!" definitely sounds silly in reality.

However - does any other phone invite you to hack the crap out of it quite like the n900? I think that gives the "most open" claim at least some credence.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

With Nokia's oFono, that makes sense.

However, it's not like Android doesn't have Maemo beat in other areas relating to calls.

Android Vs. Maemo

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

The Commodore 64 is still a functioning device with a functioning OS as well, with a community that still develops for it. It's dead. Anyone doing anything with it today is doing it out of pure hobbyist interest or nostalgia.

Nokia's efforts are providing me with nostalgia lately too.

Just saying.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Fighting qualifiers with qualifiers?

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Why? Because it's not supporting Nokia?

Hacking it is nice. Finding you can't hack many components because it's closed isn't.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Well in that case, dead does not qualify as hyberbole lol. But I think if something is not drastically outdated, still usable for practical scenarios, and still receives support from the original developer (think Windows XP until more recently) you can't really consider it to be "dead".

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Also, let's not forget the community based around custom firmware coding too: CyanogenMOD

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

It suddenly struck me that even the Commodore 64 is more of an open architecture than our beloved Nokia devices. :P heh.. might explain why a long-dead platform still manages to have a community this long after its corporate demise.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

[QUOTE=qwerty12;719782]Why? Because it's not supporting Nokia?

??... Don't understand this comment. I am saying Nokia sounds silly with that claim considering how much of the platform is closed.

Agreed 100%. You may remember me from this (unsuccessful) thread.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Apologies.

Sorry for turning that thread into a discussion about my physical ability :\

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

OTOH, let it die Nokia! If Maemo dies, then it can be revived in some dramatic fashion and become undead. Thus becoming the first zombie OS :D

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

That title is already taken. Amiga OS. Has died multiple times and it keeps coming back one way or another :)

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Iconic !!

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Maemo web page cannot be found.

Was that the point? :D

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Yes :)

(That's not fake BTW - the Call UI you see in Maemo is provided by that package :))

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

wrong - cash cow is S40 selling like hell in Asia, smartphones (and smart consumers for pair) are on short supply, especially in US where sanity had been dropped in return for velvet rope of fruity sales point... :rolleyes:

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Personally I'm really upset about updating to PR1.2 without warning before, after the update I can't find a function anymore I used several times a week... I reported a bug and the only official answer I get is: "Nokia currently does not plan to reintroduce this." => RESOLVED / WONTFIX

No excuse, no hotfix, no target set (for the Device I payed for!), no compensation payment. Nothing!

"We have turned it off and removed the code. Live with it or sell your device on ebay for 300 bucks instead of the payed 600!" :mad:

I got screwed over. And not for the first time with this Device. This is not a good feeling... and had I known it before I had never considered to order a N900.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Know how you feel buddy

Everyone here is looking forward to meego, but what I see happening next year is Nokia abandoning meego and going android.

Android is maturing nicely, while meego is due for release q3 2010 ???, currently android has 30,000 apps and prob at least another 10,000 by the time meego is released. Nokia is chasing its on tail while the mobile world rapidly moves forward without it.

The way nokia has handled the n900 saga illustrates a company that has lost its direction, android has a gameplan and a product to back it up, nokia has neither. Meego may live on in the backwater of the mobile world, but for me Apple OS and Android will be the gorillas.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

I don't see Nokia willingly placing their future in the hands of Google. I also don't see them being forced into running Android.

Certainly, I'd be disappointed if Android won the day.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

You can always reflash whichever firmware you bought the device with.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

I agree. I think that is very, very unlikely. Nokia being reduced to a hardware manufacturer of me-too devices, fighting against HTC et.c.? Nevermind that beyond all the dire predictions, the reality is that Symbian still has what, more than double the marketshare of Android and iOS combined? I would question any executive that would throw down the towel so spectacularly, especially when it is apparent that the future will be commodization of hardware and a lot of the profit coming from services.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

well they may have no choice, sure look at their stock warnings.

Nokia cannot control the market !

The big problem for Nokia is Devlopers, as monkey boy once said "Developers, Developers, Developers !!!!"

Software Developers have to make a living, they are going to develop for the biggest markets surely, which will be android and iphone os.

What WILL nokia do if no apps are developed for meego or they are as piss poor as the ones on the n900 ???

the mobile market will see more convergence, and platforms will dissapear, maemo has already left the stage, meego is going to have on hell of a battle. what developer is going to back nokia when they have not even a clear roadmap ????

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

I'm sure giving up and retreating to Android would not make them look good. There's already lots of Android handsets, and hardware is not a significant differentiation. Even Samsung and Motorola are trying to make moves to their own OSes. What about them?

Monkey boy was also at the helm during their worst decade ever.

Well, these days I wouldn't want to try and make a living doing mobile software development. And if they did, the smart ones try to maintain platform independence.

First: No need to malign the people here who have done good work on software for the N900. I understand it enhances your argument, but it is dishonest and insulting.

Second: If Nokia rolls out things in a better manner (IE the upper management gets things through their thick skulls) then MeeGo alone could become a significant competitor. They already have a well known API, a dev studio, and by the end of the month images for handset development. Qt is widely known and available, and Nokia has left no doubts as to what the platform will be down the line (not Maemo, MeeGo, not Symbian^3/4, but Qt.)

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Quite contrary, if you ask from me. The passion that you have put to it makes me believe that we still may have a chance..

It's 3 am local time in Finland and I am still in the halfway of this mega thread(s). I hope I can still digest few more, as we have today (at office time) very related discussion.

What more can you ask ?

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Go for the throat!

It is good to hear that developers inside Nokia appreciate the opinions of the community at large. Perhaps if the people who are making decisions that drive people like querty12 away take these criticisms seriously, they can reverse course and retain people whom they won with an idea instead of promises of riches.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Would be nice if the n900 could benefit from commercial Qt goodness to quench all the bitterness in this forum.

Is learning Qt comparable in difficulty to Python? Does anyone know?

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

There's too much variation in the OSes and devices Nokia has:

S40
S60
S60v5
Symbian^3
Symbian^4 (???)
Maemo (several different versions)
Meego

There's probably more but compare this to:

Apple: iOs
Google: Android

Wonder why their software is so much better on the high end devices? They have focus. I bought the N97 only to find out it didn't do half of the stuff it was advertised to do well at all. I bought the N900 and it's sure as hell 100x times better than the piece of garbage S60v5 is (no offense, it's god awful for a $600 phone).

I'm happy with my N900 and I'm smart enough to not ever buy anything Nokia is offering again until they get their act together. This whole lack of full support for Meego only reinforces my theory that they don't really care who they screw over in the short-term. Eventually, I'd like to see how well Meego runs on a N900 compared to something like Android 2.2 on a Droid (or whatever device doesn't have full support, if any).

Anyways, I'm just venting. I still don't totally understand what they're doing and talking with my dad it seems it's a Finnish thing to end up like this (my family is from Finland). He even talked about how Nokia dropped the ball with Apple back when they were developing the iPod line; I'm not sure of the details but he said Nokia lost a lot of money because they didn't team up with Apple at that point.

Oh well. They need to adapt or go bankrupt. :D

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

There are python bindings for Qt that would make it less of a hurdle (google for PySide and PyQt).

Standard offer: if you run into problems, especially if you feel a bit overwhelmed by things, don't hesitate to contact me and I'll be happy to try help sort you on the straight path.

In addition, watch this space(tm). I'm thinking on doing some developer outreach/education work in the near future.

I'll be announcing it on TMO/meego forums and relevant mailing lists once I've got the ideas sorted out in my head a bit more.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

I still love all the nokia phones I had from the 3210 to the n95 to the E90 to the e71 to the e75. I just feel the n900, which was brilliant on paper, was something of an experiment to them... with the "small people" as the BP exec. said recently (he was Scandinavian too actually).

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Three things you don't fully go into, or perhaps don't know:

1) A lot of the items you list here are related (or descended) from each other, i.e: Symbian^3 and Symbian^4, S60 and S60v5.. are all from the same 'base' family of Symbian. MeeGo is to be the child of Maemo.
2) Nokia sell a *lot* of different types of devices. It's great to say 'have one OS' when you have *one* type of device, which is a high-end touchscreen device, with equally high end hardware. It's a bit more difficult to get something like Maemo onto a 40 euro phone. ;)

(On the same point, yes, there is a bit of overlap between Maemo and Symbian, but the roadmap quite publically was to see Symbian phased out from the high end by 2011, IIRC)
3) Qt is slowly but surely rolling onto as many platforms as possible, meaning that (for developers) it doesn't matter what the underlying gunk is, they still can (fairly easily) target the lot. In practice, this isn't going to be seamless due to UI differences (touch vs nontouch etc), but it's a good start.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Thanks, I make websites in my spare time. I was starting to get to grips with basic Python and may continue that for a bit and try Qt later.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Yes. As was the 770, the N800 and the N810. This is the 'step 4 of 5' thing you keep hearing about if you read around a lot, where Qt and fluffy kittens are the end-origin where things are hopefully ready for the consumer.

We'll see.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

You're alright, Harri. Hopefully we can meet. Akademy 2010 (I'm presenting)? MeeGo Conference?