Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Yeah. MeeGo is the future.
Ie. I tried rebuilding MeeGo disk image today and this wonderful piece of python code called mic2 crashed on me, without any hints of what might be wrong.
Nice set of tools you have there...

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Well, that's something I'm trying to do... at least for the "Harmattan" MeeGo.

-----------------------------------------------
My personal opinion of what is currently wrong is that we currently have three mostly divergent (there's always exceptions!) communities.

- Mostly represented here we have the old and "Nokia-deprecated" Maemo community. It is the biggest one by far because there's actual, released devices involved.
- Mostly represented on the MeeGo MLs we have the "new" MeeGo community and the one we're supposed to "move into". But as it is now all I can get from MeeGo is a set of make-your-own-distro tools. Which are much better than Maemo's and fully OSS, but why would I be interested in them?
- And then, what should have been the main focus for quite a lot of people as it's what's going to be the visible part of the future Nokia device -- the Harmattan/DUI/MeegoTouch development community -- is quietly hidden under Gitorious, blogs and/or behind Nokia doors, and few people are monitoring it. Why? Why? It is THERE where I can sometimes smell the awful odour of closed source components approaching (but fortunately the picture seems generally better). And -- you're looking for the N900+1 GUI? It's right there in front of your eyes. Hint hint! Stop looking at MeeGo Netbook/Moblin screenshots.

And the sad truth is that so far instead of getting everything and everybody happily "merged" like Maemo mostly was we're distancing ourselves even more. And this won't look good. It will look like Android vs HTC. Does HTC care about being open? No, they just point fingers to Android and say "hey! we use that open stuff! we're open! buy our devices!" then laugh at you if you ask for the source of the crap they put on top the Android stack on their devices, and they will kick you if you ask where to file nasty hardware bugs. "Talking with the actual engineers behind the device? Madness! This it HTC!"

Haven't you already heard that sentence here? Some statements I've been reading lately have already felt to me like "hey! we use that open meego stuff! the N900+1 will be open!" "what about the notepad (or dial, or messages, or ...) application?" "closed! differentiation! but meego is open so go grab their generic Qt mail reader application that won't even integrate with the system theme because virtually no shipped device uses it. it's open! see -- here's the meego bugzilla, here's its repository, here's ..."


The other day I was reading a KDE guy blog and found that "MeeGo" was going to use some parts of the KDE calendar application. Which MeeGo was that guy talking about? Was he talking about the meego.com MeeGo? Was he talking about the Harmattan MeeGo? Fortunately, I googled a bit and found the answer (http://maemo.gitorious.org/extendedkcal/extendedkcal aka Harmattan) but the very fact that I had to ask this question made me think. Since then I've asked myself similar questions lots of times.


So, why are you expecting us to move "to MeeGo", considering the next device is still pretty much Harmattan?
See, when I arrived here, I had Joe Average's "make the most of the CURRENT DEVICE I OWN" mentality. Advancing to the "make the most of the NEXT device" mentality IS hard enough already, but I admit it has lots of benefits. And now we have to move to a "Make the most of the SECOND NEXT device" chain of thought? Talk about big ships turning around!

It still amazes me when users talk about Qt like if it had been this "device generation"'s decision. Guess again! The Qt-craze is happening right now because the NEXT device is the one that is all about the Qt-craze, and of course, it has nothing to do with the software the device you have in your hands right now runs, which is pretty much Gtk+ based. The MeeGo-craze device will be the next one after the Qt one. 2012? 2013?


Hopefully we'll see MeeGo as a true unifying layer by then. So far, I see no need to merge any communities as all this will cause is damage, and more confusion.
I can already envision asking a GUI development question on the meego-devel mailing list and getting two perfectly valid answers, one for "MeeGoMoblin" -- "link with libmoblinpanel.so" and the other one for "MeeGoHarmattan" -- "dbus-send org.meego.xxxx ... ".

Or was it "libmeegopanel" and "org.maemo.dui.xxxx"? I can't really remember. It has been so hard to cope with the _massive_ renaming done by both parties!

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Very good analogy found.
Looks like Nokia is in fact learning something from the competitors.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

In the HTC's case, the explanation is probably way simpler: their developers do not speak English. I doubt Nokia can claim the same =)

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Oh they do. At least the ones I had talked to. Some even better than me ;P

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

I see I have not been that far off the mark in my blog post abot Harmattan being no man’s land between Maemo and MeeGo three months ago :) And yes, the naming issue is becoming painfully apparent, too. There will be strategic choices to be made, some are happening right now, and some have already been made.

I was puzzled to see, for example community managers with attitude of "I think it's important to separate end users of the open source project from the end users of vendors who purchase a device from that vendor". How are you going to build a community when you’re distancing yourself from people who are the only ones to give you feedback and crucial for an OSS community needs to thrive ? In essence, there is (and will) be no single MeeGo community to transition to, there is meego.com, for which you need a developer badge to enter, and the rest of you will be shooed away into specific manufacturer forums (say goodbye to user-developer synergy or not reinventing the wheel on issues common to all MeeGo devices). Not a thrilling prospect from an OSS perspective.

As for the naming. Please, when changing the provisional name - please do not use the sintagm "based on MeeGo". If marketing twists your arm and you absolutely have to include MeeGo in the name, do it in a way that will make the relation to it clear (i.e. based on MeeGo is fairly misleading as Harmattan is not based on MeeGo, it’s more of Qt/OBS lowest common denominator relation).

Last, but not least, make a Harmattan -> MeeGo transition strategy. Wrap it in candy paper if you have to (guaranteed upgrade to MeeGo 1.2 !) but if you want to leverage the MeeGo brand by hiding Maemo roots, the hard work of getting MeeGo onto the N9 (hardware adaptation project and all) will also be have hidden in order not to create a Harmattan-is-a-MeeGo-bait-and-switch impression. The GOOD aspect is that at least people from the community can see this, and suggest changes before things get to an ad acta state - we might seem a nuisance and sound acid at times, but that is because we want it to succeed.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

This is exactly what puzzles me about *community* within meego.com. From what I can see, it has a very different meaning than on maemo.org.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

In maemo.org the community consisted of both Nokia employees/subcontractors and everyone else (while the control of the 'product' was in the hands of Nokia, causing a vendor-user relationship).

In MeeGo, community is everyone with a 'commit bit' or role for the 'product' + everybody else who is contributing to the product + the users of the product. Even opinion and discussion is contribution to the project.

'Everybody else' can turn into having a commit bit or role if their merit warrants it.

Hence, MeeGo is more of a committer-contributor-user community.

EDIT: Important note though: It isn't all about code. Even helping the ecosystem around committers/contributors and managing this would be contribution. Kind of like HR or personell organisations. There is a fair more organisation in the 'MeeGo' community, including managers etc - see it as a virtual company where you're part of the work to bring out the product.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

I guess this simply means that the InternetTabletTalk will have to be resurrected again, this time to provide a manufacturer-free forum that welcomes all kinds of people, not just ones with the "commit bit".

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

But how do you relate to clients/users if you shut them out of your own forums/MLs ? How do you consider them part of the MeeGo community if they have no channels interacting with the other 'categories' ? Where is the bridge between a Nokia XYZ enthusiast forum and meego.com ?

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

It's a land rush - suggest ways to include ordinary users that takes into account they might come from MeeGo-deriatives like Nokia MeeGo.

We're also responsible for making the future happen and this is what I had hoped the maemo.org council would have been pioneers within, proposing tangible ways to deal with things like that. - It is afterall what we're experts in and has merit in.

Also, an important part: volunteer for kickstarting the project/proposal in question.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

I realize I'm a relative n00b here, less than a year. And I'm just a longtime linux user, not a developer. But I've seen enough of what's happening I'd still like to put in my 2 cents, strictly from a user's perspective.

My list of Maemo missteps and what needs to be done. Mostly obvious of course, some are a little OT, listed just to summarize my impressions and in no particular order, as they pop out of my damaged psyche:

1. Marketing and communicaton - not enough of either and both done poorly.

2. The 'Step 4 of 5' thing has been a complete, confusing disaster. A pubic relations nightmare Nokia should've seen coming before anyone said it.

3. Nokia should bite the bullet and skip releasing MeeGo/Harmatten. It's months away from release and already being trashed as a dead-end OS. There's a lot to lose here and little to be gained.

4. Some of the best, finished parts of Harmatten should be put into a Maemo update and released as Maemo 5.5 or 6 and made available as a regular OTA update on the N900. That would gain a lotta good PR, and show that, see - Nokia really is supporting the N900! Would quiet a lot of criticism.

5. Don't release anything called MeeGo on any new device until it really is real, full-fledged MeeGo, meaning rpm instead of deb packaging, new UI, etc. A half-Maemo half-MeeGo bastard stepchild will only confuse and dismay everyone and be yet another PR disaster. It's lose-lose all the way.

6. If the marketing bean-counters insist a new high-end device must be released before MeeGo is really ready, then Maemo 5.5 or 6 could be used to fill in that gap with less confusion that a MeeGo/Harmatten hybrid. I personally think releasing anything else before a real MeeGo release is ready would be a mistake, Nokia should just burn the midnight oil and get MeeGo ready ASAP, but it would buy some time to give the first real MeeGo release the polish it will need to impress.

7. The first real MeeGo device released must be a monster! And I don't meant huge, I mean truly state-of-the-art hardware. From the start, the MeeGo OS must be polished, full-featured and eye-catching. It must include (to me) silly but common features like individual ringtones and MMS to minimize whiners migrating from other phones or platforms. Nothing but a killer MeeGo release will generate the buzz required to jump-start the interest it will need from the press, public, and by extension, developers.

8. Complete fail of Ovi everything. Unbelievable mess for a company that says it wants to make a serious move into services. The inability of so many to even use a good credit card to buy a N900 or apps for it in Ovi Store is utterly unacceptable and well, downright weird.

9. Monkey Boy Ballmer may be a dancin' fool but he was right about developers and Nokia should make ease of use for them the #1 priority. Nokia has bet the farm on Qt. It must succeed. Yet apparently there's still a failure to even unify all documentation, toolkits and other development software, etc. in a single place. And there's some poor documentation, even now? Again, I'm not a developer and maybe I've missed it, but developers wanting to use Qt should be able to bookmark one site and find links to and complete, well-written documentation for everything they need. The KISS rule must apply.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Completely agree with the above points.

But can a leopard change its spots?

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

It can paint stripes and call itself MeeGo... errm... zebra!

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Thank you. There is also some consideration for Diablo, which Qwerty12 says is more open than Fremantle. I don't know at this point but it's good that people are thinking about it.

-----------------------------------------------
Yes, I agree that there are these divergent communities aligned with 1) legacy maemo UI; 2) OSS; 3) DUI/MeeGo touch. This is not to say they are not complementary and supportive of each other. It is largely a natural consequence of the decision Nokia made to have more open (allegedly) OS and then differentiating UI/UX, apps and services on top of it.

I don't think distancing is good, but I also don't know if a messy merger this year is the best way forward. I'm feeling pressure to be dragged into MeeGo which, given history, makes me more reluctant (not that I have much to contribute to the OS anyway). I think it's best for me to stay with maemo.org for awhile. Perhaps it is best to let each community digest and adjust, and when and if there is a decision to do a merger, to do it in a way where the majority of people are happily "merged".

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

You've generalised my statement quite a bit. I said that some components that were in Diablo are less open in Fremantle because they now depend on functionality from closed-source libraries. (To clarify: In things like Hildon Desktop, I mean closed source libraries from Nokia; not libraries from external entities.)

That said, some new components introduced (like fmtx-middleware, calendar-ui) are closed. OTOH, some new components like MAFW are open.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Thanks for clarifying. Perhaps there should be a separate thread at some point over in the proper forum to discuss the feasibility of Diablo on MeeGo.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

I know this MeeGo team is working on something for N900 users. Wait for the MeeGo Handset UX to be published and you will see - and try if you wish.

Thanks to this, making MeeGo-Harmattan apps work on the N900 will be much easier. Each app is a case but overall the situation looks good in technical terms. More when the MeeGo-Harmattan apps are published.

The current assumption is that N900 users will be able to choose between running Maemo 5, MeeGo 1.1 or MeeGo-Harmattan UX including apps on top of the MeeGo base. We'll see, the first step is to run MeeGo 1.1 unstable with the Handset UX.

About MeeGo-Harmattan apps being compiled for Maemo 5: you say it's easy but based on which facts? By definition it is simpler to compile MeeGo-Harmattan apps for MeeGo since they share an API. Don't get obsessed by the packaging. Then again, each app is a case and we will be able to discuss specific apps once they are released.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Ah yes, sorry. The maintainers of Qt for Maemo 5 are willing to get Qt 4.7 in good shape, yes. How well this will go depends of course of the results and feedback from the packages in extras-devel. They are optimistic and really willing to see Qt 4.7 across Maemo, MeeGo, MeeGo-Harmattan and Symbian.

If Qt developers are willing to develop apps using Qt 4.7 and specifically QML on the N900, the maintainers are willing to see the results and get your feedback.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Quote? As far as I'm aware I always talk about software and announced devices. In this thread I have talked about the great benefits MeeGo will bring - to N900 users too.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

You have got to be kidding me.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

I've been trying to build MeeGo image for N900 the whole day, with continuos help form Stskeeps on #meego-arm@freenode, with no luck so far.
- MIC is heavily borked
- packages of the codedrop were moved away and are not available anymore
- there exists open and closed image, and closed image essential packeges are missing
- packages for the open image are there, but MIC fails to build the image (glibc detects a programming error and crashes)

I have TONS of patience and good will. Someone else would give up several hours ago.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Fair enough. You were mentioning the case of Ovi Maps, which is a lot more complex app than the average and is somehow a case on its own.

Let's go into details if you wish once Ovi Maps for MeeGo-Harmattan has been released. Same for the rest of MeeGo-Harmattan apps shipped by Nokia (like the Phone app you mentioned).

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Hey hey hey. How did we get from the organic community at maemo.org to a place where the suggestions (by none less than a community manager) are to exclude 'plain' users offering them only scraps in the form of "if you do boring work like wiki edits and bug reports, you will have merit and then we'll consider you as a community member". What bug reports, what wiki ? You just sent those people off to a vendor forum ghetto, why would they come back ? How would a non-tech person know whether it's dealing with a vendor bug or a MeeGo bug anyway ? But I'm putting words in other people's mouth by now, so I'll stop my ranting :) Anyhow, that thread on meego.com sounded an awful lot like elitism to me, and having to move head-on to community managers to make this point is discouraging.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

So for the last half a year, including in this thread, you give us over and over again this marketing speech about MeeGO and QT being good for N900 users, since MeeGo applications will be available for N900. But every application that you actually have any knowledge or control about is not really going to run on N900? Why should we expect that other developer's will not follow Nokia's example in ignoring N900 for their MeeGo applications?

Maybe tone down the marketing a bit?

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

All the complaints, as justified they might be, are in vain unless there is action on part of Nokia to adress them.

I don't think that action will happen. I don't see them acting on our feedback.

I have gotten used to that idea, and consider Nokia for what they do: provide devices more open than their competitors and that's it.

It's kinda sad, to be honest.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

That's what I'm sayin' or to paraphrase the great American orator, Popeye:

"They is what they is and that's all that they is." :p

So energy spent ruminating over the "Hows, Whys, and Wherefores" of past (perceived or real) behavior may not be well spent.

In the end, maintaining "foundations" and "cores" may not be relevant to a developer of community apps who I assume, would be more motivated by how many in the community use his/her app. Therefore they will always adapt their methods in order to maximize that reach.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

As long as someone like Quim takes the time to engage on this, and some forward (if slow) progress is made on any issue(s), the time is certainly well-spent.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

We will see if this long suffering and faithful community counts for something to them.

If not, I hope Apple (who are very user feedback and experience focussed) pi55es's all over them.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

This differences between the two is just hitting me. MeeGo lowers average users by one rung. Many may start to feel like they lost the direct connection back to the vendor. User experience must then be so high to offset this loss. Can MeeGo deliver? If not, other options may start to appeal.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Been there. Done that. Slightly too pissed off at being ignored as a voice in a (very small, and very quiet) crowd, rather than an elected voice of a community hundreds (or thousands, depending on how you count) strong.

The most striking which springs to mind is the suggestion from the Community Office that meego-community is the "official" channel for the Community Office and the fora just deal with "end-users". The problems this has caused with maemo.org are demonstrable and a large part of the Council's job is tying those two media together. We're beyond help - you can't change two communication media which both have benefits after so many years and with important people in both; but MeeGo could've avoided those issues entirely.

What did I get [as a reply]? Nothing. Zip. Nada. No reply at all, let alone a change in approach.

Texrat's still plugging away on forum.meego.com but, having played with the Netbook UX, my own interest is now entirely limited to how interesting the Handset UX is and whether any device running it (including the N900) better meets my needs than an M5/N900 does.

Back in 2005, so many of us were excited about the 770 and Maemo. It's evolved. It's been good. However, the branding/discussion and concepts around the next step are all MeeGo. That's fine. I understand it from Nokia's business point of view. Absolutely makes sense 100%.

However the mobile landscape is also very different to what it was five years ago. Back then there was no iPhone, let alone Android. PalmOS was a joke. Psion was dead and Symbian was uninteresting [still is ;-)]. The 770 really met our needs and desires in a way that no other device had (for me) for years.

Do I want to invest another 5 years of effort in MeeGo, starting at the ground floor? An opportunity to do things over, and do things right, was tempting - but initial efforts were met with lots of "well, we've got a plan for that" or "not sure we need it for MeeGo" or you
can't expect things to change overnight!" (Hmm, where've I heard that before?)

As Stephen put it so well, Maemo's dying but MeeGo isn't ready for most of us yet. That's frustrating. When a "council" badge seemingly means nothing, why not stand to one side and let someone else have a go? I've been involved in this community for five years, it's someone else's turn.

Of course, what BananasandPears showed was that the Handset UX may be interesting, and Quim's contradictory words about us "all running MeeGo devices within 6 months" suggest that despite no commercial support from Nokia, MeeGo on N900 may be a realistic day-to-day option. I look forward to it. I really do. Hopefully there'll be lots then to get teeth stuck into, but trying to get involved in community stuff in and of itself on meego.com? Not worth the effort. The lessons we learnt from rapid growth with the N900 coming to talk.maemo.org don't seem to be picked up, and suggestions for the "community" planning process were dismissed.

I can be ignored at home, and I can be ignored at work. Why volunteer to be ignored elsewhere too? :-/

Indeed. Absolutely. 100% agreed.

There's nothing more annoying in the world than someone coming to you and saying "I've got a great idea, all you have to do is code it." I've got a great idea for flying cars, but it seems no-one's interested in implementing it :-(

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

This is true, but for the 95% of code making out a MeeGo based device (5% being a good guess of typical vendor differentiation), they've gained a stronger contact to have impact with and even contribute to the project.

Proposals how to help vendors receive feedback in a open manner, perhaps a off-the-shelf service from MeeGo project, would be interesting. In order to minimize the bother with the 5%.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Of course, so many of us are already developers we don't (much) care about how wonderfully easy it'll be for a MeeGo-Harmattan, MeeGo Core, MeeGo 1.1, Symbian^3 Qt or Maemo 5 Qt app to move from one platform to another (however, I have my doubts). We care about how much work it'll be to move our existing apps.

MeeGo Netbook UX includes a Contacts app. I'm sure the Handset UX will too. Right, so let's start thinking about Hermes for MeeGo/Maemo/MeeGo-Harmattan. Qt Mobility provides contacts access, wonderful. Oh, except it's a mobility API, so isn't in the Netbook UX. And it's slow (on Maemo 5, at least).

And then we come across things like "Qt Multimedia is now part of Qt Mobility". WTF? How do developers do multimedia stuff then without mobility?! And let's not even get started on DUI/MeeGo Touch/Qt :-(

"Don't get obsessed by the packaging" is easy to say; however when each platform will have different rules, differently named dependencies and different ways of achieving many of the same things (say dpkg's triggers), developers do need to care about packaging. Only the most trivial self contained app, with no libraries packaged and reusable by any other application, will mean the developer won't have to be obsessed with packaging. There are lots of those sort of apps, I know, but they're not the apps we've been writing.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Will something like Easy Debian be allowed or even encouraged on the next device?

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Jaffa, Qt Mobility is part of MeeGo Core and therefore shared by all UXs: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/t.../repos/source/

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

Ah, interesting. Thanks. A published definition of the "MeeGo API" and Core package list is, I believe, still missing?

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

http://meego.com/developers/meego-api

About the list of packages, thanks and I just created http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3277 . If there are more things wrong, unclear or missing please file bugs.

About Qt Multimedia I have no clue but you have the MeeGo architects and the Qt maintainers in meego-dev. If you have more technical questions or disagreements please use that list.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

If what you want to do has anything to do with _tablets_ and not netbooks, you might be better suited by just trying to run MeeGoTouch on the N900, and entirely forget about any of the meego.com tools.

Two months ago you would have found that NO MeegoTouch packages (and this includes window manager, home screen application, etc. ) had RPM spec files, so ironically, it would have been way easier to try MeeGoTouch on your desktop Debian distro (or Maemo!) than on MeeGo itself (isn't that a nice irony? ;) ).

Fortunately, steps are being made, and you can now find rpm spec files for some of the core MeeGoTouch components... not for all of them, though.

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

On the other side, it's the most common kind of app. Yes gentlemen, Nokia is trying to reinvent midlets =) . Qt Mobility = JSR 75 and descendants.

I have to wonder what will happen when we end in a setup where all the system apps directly use underlying APIs, each with its own set of quirks, while all the third party apps are suggested to use the extra abstraction layer in order to keep source compatibility.

Example: native calendar application APIs:
MeeGoTouch -- KCal (possibly?)
MeeGoNetbook -- Evolution
Maemo5 -- calendar-backend

Will Nokia succeed in unifying all of those under a Qt Mobility "Calendar" API? Will it be encompassing enough and at the same time stable and consistent, so that most developers do not feel compelled to use the native APIs to get more features/avoid bugs?

Re: Maemo Missteps, your thoughts?
 

And what is the product from this well spent time?

Couldn't more energy be put into maemo.org now!

What has this most "important council term" done so far in order to overcome some of this...

I am in no way saying that nothing has been done. I'm asking where are the posts communicating this?

Now I'm going to be blunt. Some of the posts lammenting Nokia's apparent abandonment of this community are from people who, other than posting in this thread, have pretty much already abandoned this community.

Ironical ain't it? :D

I am hoping that Jaffa's dedication of the most recent news letter >> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=56149 to this subject is a wake up call for some. But, without a direction defined, or specific task requirements outlined, a lot of energy will be spent in threads like this and nothing else. If the justification is that qgil was forced to respond to this noise then perhaps we are not doing a very good job as a community communicating to and from him, and Nokia by extention.

***

Popeye: How come carrots is a dollar?
Geezil: $1.50. You buy what I don't feel like selling will cost you $2.00.
Popeye: [Takes the carrots and tosses Geezil a nickel]
Geezil: Ah ah. Nope, this is a nickel.
Popeye: I'm payin' what I feels like payin'.
The Tax Man: You're not up to no good are you? Because if you are there's a 25¢ up to no good tax.