Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

It seems that Microsoft

http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/18/w...roid-with-its/

Apple, of course

http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/11/j...s-kill-switch/

and now, shockingly google

http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/25/g...witch-for-the/


All seem to reserve the right to remotely 'clean up' your phone. Does this seem like a little bit of a slippery slope to anyone else?

I don't see any way that Nokia would have this capability right now, but who knows if the ovi store ever gets really full

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

How do we know there isn't one? ;)
But seriously, with all the confusion i see at nokia hq, they have bigger problems

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

Eesh, I hope if there is one that they would give us the option to turn it off. I'll decide whether I want an app removed or not.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

Well if MeeGo takes off like I hope, we can always produce a community build that omits any sort of "remote kill" switch :)

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

This is ridiculous.
If I buy a device, why don't I have the right to do with it what I want?

Seriously. If I buy a product, don't I have the right to do so?

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

I expect once we get proper DRM (probably on the next device), then kill switches could be implemented.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

Considering Nokia planned for the next Maemo (now Meego) to have DRM. I don't think we could easily. Apparantly the choice was to be..

DRM mode (limited configurations)

Non-DRM mode (as a result, no access to DRMed apps) but full configuration.

Sadly, no middle ground (unless you pirate the DRM apps for Non-DRM use).

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

This is one reason I like the N900. I worried they'd add this in the PR1.2 firmware, which is why I keep copies of the older firmware around. Worst case we can always revert vai re-load of the base image.

Mind you, all three have only used it for removing apps that had/were malware (Google used it against a banking app written by a phisher that was not affiliated with the bank in question, for example). But the fact that it exists, and isn't blockable, would be enough to make me twitchy if I owned one of these.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

I'm aware of that. And like I said, a community release can ensure it is stripped. I fully intend on running in a no-DRM mode for all of my devices, and any developer who demands I give up control of my device can go stuff it ;)

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

Heh.. this is "Freedom #1!!!!11" talk allover again... but unless we can help Nokia police the pirates, then DRM is the best 'defense' they have.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

Yeah, I know. I should just give up, accept DRM, and acknowledge that I should not ever have control over my hardware, instead ceeding control to Microsoft/Apple/Nokia/the RIAA/ the MPAA/etc.

No, DRM is an abusive, customer hostile defense that can at worst fail, and at best make life a ***** for legit customers.

But never mind that. I am WRONG for arguing against it. Thank you ysss for pointing out the fallacy of my ways.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

n900/maemo 5 is probably our last best hope for 'freedom'

Now I know why the call it step V:The Empire Strikes Back :)

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

That's not necessarily so. You can do DRM on mobile devices pretty easily without needing to be totally closed. You can do that by implementing the locking code into the app vs into the downloader.

Look at how JoikuSpot and Sygic did their distribution without OVI. You got a deb, and that deb was totally in the open. To unlock the program you needed a key, which it based on an input string from the device (probably a hash of your user ID and your IMEI). The same applies for SSL: The implementation is opensource, yet the encryption capabilities of it stand and work well.

You can do DRM with opensource, it just takes some thinking and planning on how to do it properly. The question is, will they take the proper route and do it right in an opensource way, or take the easy route of security through obscurity, which in the end is usually not as secure long term.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

@wmarone:
Don't get me wrong. As a paying customer I'd love to do away with DRM. But knowing the commercial developer side, I also can sympathize with their concerns. That's why I phrased my last post that way.

If there is a better 'defense' than DRM that the content producer/middlemen can accept, then we can all move on from this mess.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

The biggest issue that content producers/middlemen need to acknowledge and learn from is:

Your product will always be pirated. So the real issue is, how many customers do you want to **** off in your quest to protect your product. And remember, some of those customers might just go pirate it (out of spite) or because it's easier than dealing with the DRM mess.

From what I've seen on the PC games, I find Steam's one of the best. It balances DRM without causing too many troubles to the user.

Edit: Some of the things that happened during the Humble Bundle donation/sale were interesting too. Even if the price was 1 cent or 0, people still "pirated" the software. Indicating that it's not price or even DRM that's necessarily an issue. It could even be distribution and methods of advertisement (alot of people were posting links to the download and people who had no clue about what was happening were downloading it).

All of this just shows what most companies advocating stringent DRM don't understand. That piracy is a multi-faceted problem and one hammer solution (e.g. DRM) doesn't work if you don't tackle the other angles.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

Well, no, you can't. What Sygic and Joikuspot did is nothing new in the grand scheme of copy control technologies, and not terribly robust. That said, I prefer and respect that means rather than demanding that I allow my property to treat me like the enemy.

As for actual device-level DRM, you can't do it with open source unless you do like Motorola and employ TrustZone to ensure that the system remains in a known state, otherwise you could simply strip out the access controls and roll on.

Their concerns are largely the same as the media companies: they want artificial constraint of supply on something that necessarily has none. While I disagree with piracy myself, I would assert that it will happen no matter what unless we are completely and totally stripped of freedom, and that they should compensate appropriately instead of demanding I knuckle under.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

as always, my thoughts can be perfectly expressed by xkcd:

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/6...lthiscomic.png

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

@wmarone: and understandably so, if they're laying out the same kind of investments for big production content as conventional media companies. We're talking about contents with significant production quality that are generally quite desirable and easy to put a price tag on right?

I'm not defending any particular corners because imho each have good/acceptable explanation for their stance, but unless someone comes up with a better drm then current drm then *shrugs*.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

Beat me to it!

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

The honest purchasers are the only ones who suffer the DRM version. The pirates are downloading the DRM-free version.

So DRM can never work, and DRM never makes financial sense for the content producer, no matter how big the investment they have made.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

dont they have anti virus type struff for phones? that way you can remove harmfull software your self with out the manufactuer doing it. i kind alike the idea of having control over my phone. not ready to give that up

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

I have an alternate viewpoint on all this.

You bought the program through their App stores, so absolutely they can and should have a kill switch for those programs. The real issue is forcing users to only use that app store. If users have a choice between sideloading content and a creator-owned DRM'd App store, then the owners of the App store and kill switch as many apps as they want. Users will still have the choice to go straight to the developers for DRM free apps to sideload.

There's also a difference in context between DRM'd programs and DRM'd media. Those programs have a fairly small footprint of machines they can run on. Especially in the case of phones, DRM'd apps make perfect sense.

DRM'd media on the other hand, doesn't. There are literally countless devices that can use these and that users should be able to use. Unless the DRM transparently allows that user to do that, its bad DRM.

Valve's Steam is an example of DRM done right. Not perfect, but amazingly executed nonetheless. It satisfies one of the principle complaints of DRM: that you can't take it with you. Not only will Steam allow you to install the same program on an unlimited number of computers, but its also cross-platform now.

EDIT:

Not to say that I am a huge fan of DRM. I'm just saying that DRM doesn't always have to be this huge terrible monster. The half-baked solutions are terrible and the men who dreamt them up should rightly be flayed alive. A DRM that is transparent and is tied to YOU not a machine though, isn't something that should be demonized.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

(Yosh, we're back to disagreeing - feels much more natural, doesn't it? ;) ;) ;) )

Like LaughingMan said, there's two big problems with DRM:

1) It won't stop people from pirating, since most pirating groups tend to have workarounds for every new copy protection technology days before it's even released.

2) That means that the ONLY people DRM is a hindrance for are legit customers, who then revert to pirated goods because that way at least they will have a fully functional product instead of a DRM crippled one.

So is the current DRM really better than no DRM? I dare say no.

Know what's actually the best way to go for any company? Getting rid of copy protection altogether. Because those customers who don't have the honour to actually pay for something won't do so, anyway. And those who do at least would no longer be literally FORCED into pirating thanks to restricting DRMs.

It really does work without any copy protection whatsoever. There's this company I'm spending a fortune on each month who sell digital products online. Of course there are lots of torrents for their products around, but they still earn a fortune thanks to the honourable customers by far outweighing the loosers that don't want to pay for a top notch product.

But those wouldn't pay, anyway, while we on the other hand love the freedom to install products we paid good money for on whatever machine we're currently working on.

Sadly, very few companies seem to realise that all it takes to sell a product is a bit of trust towards their valid customers (and at the same time trust into their own products - that they are good enough for people to feel they are worth paying for).

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

I think the DRM adoption is pretty much non issue to the general crowd nowaday...

Let's use a sample case... DRM in Apple's AppStore. How it seems to appeal to the general mass and can address their concern (if any) about purchasing contents online. In all of the steps, the theme is 'simple & convenient and pretty much trouble-free':

1. Acquisition: You can buy content from any of your portable devices and/or your desktop/notebook with your account.

2. Backup: The purchase is automatically synced to all of your compatible devices and also on your host computer for backup.

3. Usage: There's no serial number or repetitive online activation scheme to bother with.

4. Update: There's an auto-update system that will notify of any new version of owned/installed apps that can be accessed from any of the devices/computers.

5. Long term concerns: Apple is perceived to be big enough to sustain the current licensing scheme for the foreseeable future. The killswitch may be there, but there's no historic record of that being misused while a user is within the ToS, so...

I don't see how a customer suffer (in the popular, non-OSS encumbered term :p) really.

ps: I can (and have) even shared some apps from my iPhone to people I trust (family and friends) by downloading some of my apps to their device with my account (of course I retain the password and it's not memorized by the other devices).

pps: yes, there are a boatload of other issues and limitations on apple's ecosystem, but as far as DRM-ed apps are concerned; I think they've nailed it.

ppps: this is specifically about software DRM (re: killswitch topic) tied to specific platform. I have different views about DRMs on media that can 'flow' among different platforms (pc, bigscreen tv, pmp, etc).

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

slight OT...A number of points:
1) lower the profit margin for professional private. If you price your stuff at $500 where as the real cost of producing it is $2. Those people with sufficient means will sure want to get in(ie. pirates) your stuff to have a cut at the margin.
2) produce/make stuff that are worthwhile; so that people really see the value with the 'real' stuff.

Implementation of DRM does not address the two points above, so the chance of it being successful to at the official intended purpose(stopping the the private) is next to nil. However, for the rest of the people(ie. people without means to overcover DRM), you will be forever paying to the content producer at each and every refresh of content delivery-medium

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

True, DRM isn't as much a problem as companies like Steam and Apple are incorporating it in a way that doesn't inconvience the user (much). But DRM on the Meego system might. And that's the problem. I don't want to have to choose between say running a commercial app and messing around with my system to make it do things that a company may not approve of.

Granted that's not something most normal users need to do.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

@nathraiben: fair points ;)

but please address how DRM is a major hindrance in my example above?

I also think the point about "people who will pirate will pirate and those who will pay will pay" is bull. Just look at the the great work by tomaszd:

241,000 downloads and only 21 EUR donated. It was not even 10 EUR before this point was specifically mentioned in another thread a few days ago.

src: http://forums.internettablettalk.com...475#post716475

(btw, for anyone's who've used tomaszd extra decoder package please consider donating from the link in his sig!)

This is already a painful statistic from a software package that we all can see the benefit and value of, coming from one of our own in the community. Think of what would happen when the producer is replaced by a giant heartless corporation... (which also need the money to continue to produce the goodies we like).

@cheve: free market, you can't regulate those (price and content). the market (demand) will weed out those too expensive and those with quality too low to generate demand (like angryman on ovi heh).

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

Did you know that a good share of people had problems with the iPhone firmware update last year? After updating, my phone was completely wiped (it was even set to English - not that care much :D ). Well, no problem, I could still sync it with iTunes, right?

Wrong. I got a message that this was no longer an iPhone registert to this iTunes installation, so in order to protect their poor apps from pirating, without even asking for my permission iTunes got reset, too.

I didn't care much, since I never felt daring enough to give Apple access to my credit card, so all I lost were free applications - but I know at least three other people who had the same problem, and THEY lost commercial apps this way...

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

There is, it's called quality. And if you don't control the hardware (PS3, XBox, anything Apple, gaming servers, ..., etc), you can't control the software. Or you can purchase politicians and/or law enforcement.

It's not possible to simultaneously satisfy the most powerful in both camps (coders and creators). This is the entertainment industry's Israel. It's time for the creator mafia to get more creative, otherwise the inevitable will come sooner rather than later:

"Anything I see, hear or feel, I own." We can call it Tommy! :)

Then maybe we'll see a quality increase, and a quantity slow down. I computationally analyze music as a hobby; the next Don Kirshner might not be human. The movie industry will have to compete with open source gaming engines for market share.

"Strong Arm or Die" will lose. "Innovate or Die" is all that creators will be left with. But no one will go quietly into the night; there will be many corpses on both sides.

I probably spend as much a month on content as anyone in here, but this is the future as I see it.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

Whoa there!

Google was also perceived to be big enough to sustain their licensing schemes for the foreseeable future, but people who purchased videos from Google Video under the "download to own" scheme had their DRM turned off and their access terminated.

Sure, the lusers eventually received a refund, but they still lost access to the DRM-videos they had paid to "own".

"Google Ends Paid Google Videos"
http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2007-08-11-n74.html

In the end, Google "backed down" and reluctantly allowed people to keep playing the videos they'd purchased for an extra six months.

Here's Google's belated apology:
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2007/...-feedback.html

Yahoo and Microsoft have done similar things to loyal customers. Maybe Apple hasn't done it yet, but it's not because they're "big enough".

Regards,
Roger

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

More likely because it'd be terrible publicity. What drives Apple usually is their image, and they do anything to protect it (which is why I'm surprised at Steve's e-mail).

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

I never said how it was done was new. I said it can and has been done.

SSL still exists because it works. It provides content securely from point A to point B. There are DRM systems that work in open source using very similar principles (TrustZone being one example). So it can, in fact, be done. Just most places take the easier route.

Granted, for some things (audio in particular) there will always be a way to get around DRM. Even on the most locked down DRM audio systems, all I have to do is use a headphone-to-headphone cable, plug it into my PC, and hit record. Bingo, I have a copy, no matter how closed or locked down your system is.

The key to DRM is never to make it impossible to break, as everything can be broken eventually. What you want is something that's more hassle than it's worth to break, which depends on the worth of what you're selling and what people constitute to be a hassle. Tough enough that most people will just pay for it, vs trying to break it or deal with it being broken from having disabled the DRM. My point is, you can make it pretty tough while still using opensource code.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

@Nath: can you give me keywords for that particular issue? I don't remember reading about it..

@daperl: I don't know man, I can afford my content but I'm also aware of other distribution channels online... if there's zero DRM and it's not a software/content that I absolutely need, I will probably... uh... seek other means before opening my wallet...

@eiffel: Sorry, I guess I should rephrase/expand upon it. Coming from a big company with historically good customer-friendly (in the conventional sense) track record, then you're somewhat guaranteed that you're likely to get an acceptable resolution to issues because they can afford it (as google's case have demonstrated). Now Apple's case is different. They have that good track record AND they also run the biggest content distribution online which nets them positive cashflow (financially sustainable). So, that's a longer 'warranty'.

@LaughingMan: Steve is affected by his own RDF. That's why he's so convincing. He believes every word he says.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

SSL is PSK encryption, not DRM.

TrustZone is not open source, it's hardware and denies the the intention of open source software (see Tivoization.)

You cannot and still be open source. DRM only survives so long as the user is locked down. There's a reason the GPLv3 includes anti-Tivoization language.

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

But there's a big difference between "Here, we've developed this great application - you can buy it for only $5 in the store!" and "Look, I've written this in my past time to share with you for free. Take a look, it's completely free, so feel free to do with it whatever you want. Oh, but if you feel generous, please consider donating!".

A lot of people (me included) don't have a problem with taking something for free that was actually OFFERED for free. Sometimes, when I have some spare money lying around and the application was exceptionally good, I might feel like donating. But I don't feel obliged to do so.

On the other hand, when something was offered for price X, my code of honour would keep me from taking it for free. It was not meant to be taken for free, and it wasn't done in anybody's spare time because he had fun making it or just felt generous to share something with the community - but rather it was made by someone who's depending on the money because that's actually how they make their living.

So I really don't think open source donation-ware is representative for non DRM paid products.


Concerning keywords: Errr... no? It's nothing I read about, it's what I experienced first hand and have heard from (hardcore Apple fan :D ) friends, too.

Don't know, maybe look up the version it got updated to (I think it was somewhere around this time last year) and then something like "reset" and/or whatever the message is that iTunes returns when you plug in a non-compatible iPhone. Can't remember anymore, I think that was the last times I started iTunes, anyway. :D

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

DRM is not just an inconvenience...it is often a violation of your rights. There are plenty of things that you are allowed to do under fair use that you cannot do with something locked down under DRM. Some of the more common things you might want to do are given to you as workarounds (you can always re-download your music from iTunes to a new Apple device so you don't need to make a backup copy) but not everything. For example, is it legal for you to back up a DVD that you buy in case your kids use it for a frisbee? Who can tell? Can I buy a DVD in France and play it on my DVD player in Texas? Not without resetting region codes or hacking. Can you make copies of sections of a book you read through Amazon on your Kindle or iPad for a study group in your school or synagogue? Not easily (perhaps not at all) though that is apparently allowed under copyright law. Can you move your books from a Kindle to a Nook to a future device for reference in the future? Who knows?

My point is, it is not just that they are treating us like criminals with the DRM, it is that they are also restricting our fair use of the music/books/movies/shows that we pay for. We end up either unable to do things we could do with non-DRM'ed technology (like paper books or CDs) or we end up paying for the same content multiple times.

All that said, I am a huge hypocrite because I own an Amazon Kindle which is a pretty solidly locked-down-with-DRM device (and I love the thing). And I bought a whole bunch of crap on CD's in 1988 that I already had on tape or vinyl. (Which also makes me kind of an idiot. And old.)

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

@Nathraiben: Ok, that was an extreme example, maybe I also just wanted to raise awareness of tomaszd's donation page at the same time :D

But I think the purchasing decision is based on proper balance of carrot and stick... incentive and pain point (as woody have mentioned in his post above). The 'right' implementation of DRM can provide that stick...

I can't imagine doing online distribution (ie: selling) of your product with ZERO DRM (ie: it's available on a naked http://dadada.com/package_name.zip) because when people are generating the buzz of your creation, they can also hand off the download link in one fell swoop.

Anything more than that can arguably be categorized as DRM already :D

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

another thought on DRM, again expressed through the medium of XKCD :)

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/8...protection.png

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

I think no DRM is impossible. And as ysss pointed out the moment you add any restriction it counts as DRM. Even requiring a user to enter a code is DRM.

Just like there can't be a society this size with no copyright or patent laws. When societies were small if people screwed over each other. You knew. Now people can screw over each other easily, and in some places where the concept of the individual is extremely promoted then it's a "me, me, me, I don't give a **** about what happens to you".

The point is to pick a DRM system that doesn't **** off the user. And in Nokia's case, if they want to keep the community (unlikely with the way they've been acting) they had better choose a good balance between the two. Not, "you can choose a DRM system with restrictions, or a non-DRM system with no restrictions". If I want that setup I might as well go to Android or even the iPhone if I'm going be fighting the system (OS) constantly.

And I love xkcd comics. :D

Re: Nokia only manufacturer without 'kill switch'?
 

I do not approve of you calling me an idiot and old! :D

But, really, just shows that there are plenty of reasons for quite a big group of people to be legit customers. Honour, fear of being prosecuted, or simply the need to actually OWN something, heck, for the sake of owning it! :p

And obviously that group is still big enough to let companies - who sell their products without DRM - emerge with a **** load of money from a two-year-long financial crisis...

Which brings me back to:

Well, it's not much more: You have your account and can download the software from there, so instead of sharing a link you would have to put the software up for download on [add download site/torrent tracker of choice]. But, yep - it works, and that company has a whole lot of faithful customers BECAUSE there's a lot of trust between company and customers.

(Btw, good job - at least with me it would have worked if I had it installed. And it might still work if I ever decide to install it and like it :D :D :D )