maemo.org - Talk - Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

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maemo.org - Talk (https://talk.maemo.org/index.php)

- MeeGo / Harmattan (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=45)

- - Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android? (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=58061)

barzam

2010-07-10 11:15

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Actually I don't see much people in here complaining about Android being closed. What ticks me off about Android is that Google themselves are in charge of the direction it's taking whereas Meego hopefully will turn about to be a true community effort. Not saying Google necessarily is taking it in a bad direction, on the contrary I think they've done a superb job finally bringing a Linux distro to the masses without people even noticing that it's Linux.

ysss	2010-07-10 11:43

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by barzam (Post 747089)

That's exactly what's needed to get these things off the ground. Look at how slow the ones with 'design by committee' mindsets (um, debian for example). They're idealist, complete, can do no wrong.. But they don't do no 'right' within reasonable timeframe either (to be 'competitive').

Nathraiben

2010-07-10 11:53

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ysss (Post 747111)

But that's where Ubuntu kicks in (and, while of course not perfect, I'd call that one pretty competitive). And I dare say MeeGo is more comparable to Ubuntu (open source, but not "die hard" so, and also backed up by a company) than Debian itself.

barzam

2010-07-10 11:55

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

The Debian project has a up-to date testing version, only the stable releases get delayed due to them wanting a stable release. I don't see how this is a bad thing.

In any way, now that Android is finally taken off the ground with the 2.2 release Google ought to make it an open project, which we all will not happen.

acou	2010-07-10 12:03

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

What ticks me off about Android is that scifi-geeks and people interested in robotics now have a hard time finding valuable information about their subjects.
But that's Googol. Stealing and monetizing commons.

Crashdamage

2010-07-10 12:07

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by barzam (Post 747089)

Agreed.

Quote:

Not saying Google necessarily is taking it in a bad direction, on the contrary I think they've done a superb job finally bringing a Linux distro to the masses without people even noticing that it's Linux.

Disagree. Android is really not Linux, and certainly not a Linux distro. It's only a much-modified linux kernel supporting a Davlik VM.

It has helped some to increase public awareness that there's a thing called Linux. But not much, since most Android users still don't know Linux is in there at all. Betcha if you asked 10 Android users what Linux is at least 9 would have no clue.

If MeeGo succeeds, it will change that because it really is Linux, as in a real Linux distro.

ysss	2010-07-10 12:08

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathraiben (Post 747122)

Ubuntu is a great example for that. But i'm still skeptical that Nokia can change themselves enough to do us 'right' this time around. Onky time will tell....

@barzam: there's testing and experimental (sid), but you'll risk to get tangled up in all sort of dependency hell and limbo mix and matching dists... Which is why i think the semi sandboxed design is still more suitable for handhelds....

barzam

2010-07-10 12:13

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

I define Linux as something which is running the Linux kernel. What's your definition as you seem to use another one? I personally use a heavily modified Linux kernel in my netbook (stripped of loads of modules), and I still think it's a Linux kernel.

But I see what you mean: Maemo, and I guess Meego, really feel like a normal distro (repositories, terminal, googling for help to fix weird problems, GPL applications) whereas Android must be very different.

Nathraiben

2010-07-10 12:16

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ysss (Post 747135)

Ubuntu is a great example for that. But i'm still skeptical that Nokia can change themselves enough to do us 'right' this time around. Onky time will tell....

Hehe, I would say there's still Intel - but after the GMA500 fiasco I'd rather go with Nokia... :D

Maybe I'm a bit dewy-eyed, but I'm still pretty optimistic when it comes to MeeGo. Other than the cherry bomb, Nokia shows signs of finally steering into the right direction (they are finally putting more focus on 3rd party implementations instead of keeping everything to themselves just to drop it half a year later), and I have high hopes for the Symbian-Qt-MeeGo combination.

msa	2010-07-10 12:22

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

openness isnt always a plus. it sure isnt a minus, but what are the advantages that we as the maemo-community in general (and the n900-community specifically) have?
a freakin lot of half-baked hobby-apps that dont work. now i dont want to disrespect the free time and effort all the developers put in their apps, but to me as the consumer, unfinished apps arent helpful to me..

and now take a look at the android-apps. a lot of them are much more polished and professional. a friend of mine (owning a htc magic) once complained to me that he is getting updates to his apps every day.
i would LOVE when i would get an update once a week or month.
opensource sure is a nice thing, but it doesnt make maemo much better than not-so-open OS'es like android.
i guess there are much more private free developers on android as there are with maemo. there has to be a reason for that.

barzam

2010-07-10 12:28

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

For me the openness of Maemo was the only reason I ever bought a N900. If I wanted shitloads of great and not great apps and a slick interface I can't see why you'd ever pick something other than ios or android.

My experience with the applications on Maemo is that there is a lot and that they work great. I can't really think of a single thing (apart from the game Ancient domains of mystery) I'm really missing. I receive updates several times a week btw, maybe you need to enable the testing and devel repos if you want to update more.

Seriously they way you put it, it really looks like disrespect.

mikec

2010-07-10 13:08

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

I once had a fiend that said to me why would you ever buy an Audi (with respect to German cars). If you want luxury go for a Merc.
If you want a sporty number go for a BMW or Porsche. Seems to be the same for Android to me. If you want Apps why not get a fruit phone? If you want openess....

If app's were important in the Open source world Linux, would have died a long time ago, I mean not even 1% of the desktop market WTF. Sure it would be nice to have shed loads of apps, but for me standards and choice are more important, and Open source keeps all the proprietary companies honest. Nokia will always get my £500 every 18 months as long as they continue to invest upstream.

barzam

2010-07-10 13:35

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Well tbh a standard Linux distro is loaded with quality productivity applications, not so much fart apps and 3d games which the masses somehow seem to like. Debian has around 20k applications in the repositories.

ysss	2010-07-10 13:39

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathraiben (Post 747146)

Eh, I don't know.. I'm kind of fed up by Nokia's "support on a shoe string". With the combination of driver lock outs, strategically placed close bits, short term supports, half-@ssed 3rd party strategy.. they're pretty effective in shutting down devices.

If I'm a reasonable person, I'd say they were doing all this with a single purpose of planned obsolescence...

daperl

2010-07-10 14:10

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikec (Post 747188)

Worst car analogy ever. It's not too late for an edit or delete.

barzam

2010-07-10 14:27

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

As a former Audi 80 owner (1989 model) I can only agree.

wmarone

2010-07-10 16:11

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by msa (Post 747148)

The openness of an OS has nothing to do with the availability (or lack) of applications. That has everything to do with someone providing an avenue by which they can be sold, and Nokia's sloppy execution of Ovi is the main culprit.

Quote:

and now take a look at the android-apps. a lot of them are much more polished and professional. a friend of mine (owning a htc magic) once complained to me that he is getting updates to his apps every day.
i would LOVE when i would get an update once a week or month.
opensource sure is a nice thing, but it doesnt make maemo much better than not-so-open OS'es like android.
i guess there are much more private free developers on android as there are with maemo. there has to be a reason for that.

Numbers. Total end users. It's all about that. If the iPhone was unpopular it would never have had a real SDK nor the mass number of Apps written for it.

gerbick

2010-07-10 16:23

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Apple XCode existed before the Apple iPhone. The SDK was necessary to support development on the iPhone and iPod Touch once it came out.

The API was so well-documented that it's extended to stuff like Unity3D, Visual Studio .NET, and other IDE's - which accelerated adoption.

That last part is what's wrong with Qt imho. It's been around for ages; however I can't just open up TextMate or XCode or Visual Studio or Komodo ActiveState or Coda and start coding off the bat.

wmarone

2010-07-10 16:30

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 747359)

That last part is what's wrong with Qt imho. It's been around for ages; however I can't just open up TextMate or XCode or Visual Studio or Komodo ActiveState or Coda and start coding off the bat.

But you can open up Qt Creator, which is the Qt equivalent. What is missing from Qt that the other platforms have? And in the end you can't just start throwing code at things, otherwise you end up in a pinch and rewriting stuff (I know this from experience.)

gerbick

2010-07-10 16:35

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Yeah, right after I hit send, I remembered Qt Creator.

I just never quite liked it - seems slow to me on my Mac whereas it's not so slow on my Linux box - which is much lesser spec'd.

barzam

2010-07-10 17:10

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

A few years ago when I found out about Linux I was so thrilled and wanted the entire world to use it, because.. somehow I thought it would make things better. Isn't the same thing happening here? Maemo isn't getting any worse just because it's a small platform, nor would it improve much just because it got popular.

acou	2010-07-10 17:17

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Keep repeating yourselves.

Trolling this intelligently dumb place is so damn easy...

attila77

2010-07-10 17:45

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 747359)

The API was so well-documented that it's extended to stuff like Unity3D, Visual Studio .NET, and other IDE's - which accelerated adoption.

That last part is what's wrong with Qt imho. It's been around for ages; however I can't just open up TextMate or XCode or Visual Studio or Komodo ActiveState or Coda and start coding off the bat.

? Visual Studio, Eclipse and KDevelop had special Qt integration for ages. In fact, for a while, VS was *the* environment to work in if you did commercial desktop Qt apps. When Qt went LGPL, these got free too, but nowadays, QtCreator is really improving rapidly, my only complaint is that it doesn’t do Python :)

http://doc.qt.nokia.com/vs-add-in-1.0/index.html
http://doc.qt.nokia.com/vs-integration-1.4/index.html
http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qt-eclipse-1.6/index.html

mikec

2010-07-10 20:33

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by daperl (Post 747234)

Worst car analogy ever. It's not too late for an edit or delete.

Vorsprung durch technik :D

daperl

2010-07-10 20:59

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikec (Post 747527)

Vorsprung durch technik :D

Google translate kinda failed me. Is it:

Lead by technology?

EDIT: Whoa, another daperl dense moment.

"advancement through technology"

mikec

2010-07-11 10:18

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by daperl (Post 747535)

Google translate kinda failed me. Is it:

Lead by technology?

EDIT: Whoa, another daperl dense moment.

"advancement through technology"

It was Audi's advertising slogan for many years (at least in the UK), which kinda got embedded in every day language . Your translation is about right. Kinda embraces the OP :p

barzam

2010-07-11 10:21

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

I always understood it like:
"being ahead because of technology"

That's the meaning of försprång in Swedish anyway (which as you see corresponds with Vorsprung in German).

kryptoniankid17

2010-07-12 01:03

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Some interesting thoughts on whats wrong with symbians UI

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/featu...g_one_work.php

ZShakespeare

2010-07-12 05:04

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

The long and short of it that is they should either improve what they have to be competetive in the mass market, or they should adopt an alternative that is whether android or not.

ossipena

2010-07-12 05:15

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BatPenguin (Post 745998)

No, the point isn't silly at all. Nokia's average selling price for phones has been dropping all the time and it's a major problem for them. You get a lot more profit from selling the more expensive phones. The N900 doesn't exactly cost 600 euros to manufacture. R&D costs exist for both cheap and expensive phones. Sony Ericssson's CEO has, for example, said that they won't go into the cheap phones anymore since the margins are so small that they couldn't be able to produce them at prices that compete with Nokia, and still make money. This means that Nokia is not exactly raking in money from cheap phones. The expensive phones are where the money is -- and if a phone's selling price is 300 euros, they probably make much more profit on it than they do by selling three 100 euro phones.

The average price of a Nokia phone sold today is down to 62 €. The average price of a Nokia smartphone is now down to 155 €. (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1f67240c-4...44feab49a.html )

These numbers are falling all the time. I won't look up links for this, google it yourself, but the amount of PROFIT Apple makes per iphone is somewhere between 300 - 600 dollars per phone, I seem to recall. This is where Nokia wants to be. So if the magic fairy makes Nokia's 150 € smartphones for free, they only need to sell 2 to get the profit Apple is making.

It's not a silly point. I may have worded it in a not too good manner, but the point is valid: the cheap phone market is Nokia's since not too many of these major companies want to be there at all.

you could educate yourself better.

first of all, apple has found a lot of arbitrage from the markets and it is draining day by day. in the end apple must accept lower margins or quit doing phones.

And I wouldn't talk a thing about cheap phone strategies if I were you. You see only things that suits your personal opinions.

extendedping

2010-07-12 05:34

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

can android run easy debian? if so I really don't care of they go with android.

longcat

2010-07-12 05:52

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

android is a market hype since google did A LOT in terms of marketing, however maemo is not, since nokia did nothing.

kureyon

2010-07-12 05:58

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by barzam (Post 747089)

That's because android is just a shell to run java apps. It's based on the linux kernel but it's certainly not what one would traditionally call a linux distro.

kureyon

2010-07-12 06:01

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by msa (Post 747148)

i guess there are much more private free developers on android as there are with maemo. there has to be a reason for that.

One of the reasons is that people had started developing apps (or at least playing around with android) years before an android phone was even released.

Thesandlord

2010-07-12 06:18

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by extendedping (Post 748775)

can android run easy debian? if so I really don't care of they go with android.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/08/u...rcussions-now/

For all intents and purposes, yes. Slightly different than how its done on the Maemo devices, but basically the same.

Both versions run Debian (or Ubuntu) in a chroot, however the Android version seems to access it via VNC because Android does not have an X server while the Maemo version uses native x11 forwarding.

ysss	2010-07-12 08:23

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by longcat (Post 748785)

android is a market hype since google did A LOT in terms of marketing, however maemo is not, since nokia did nothing.

I'd agree that Android is a market hype if it dies down soon. Unfortunately, there's a ridiculously little chance of that happening.

telnet

2010-07-12 08:26

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

NO !!

Stupid question, short answer

ossipena

2010-07-12 08:55

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 746391)

Has very little do to with fads; investors want to make money. And if the company seems like they're being directed wrong or have no direction, your company will lose share price(s).

Be realistic.

well... don't know how much you really know about stock markets in reality but mass movements create a lot of arbitrage to those who have guts to swim crosscurrent. now there is a great panic about nokia. reasonable people and somewhat reasonable bots stir the soup and there is no sense to be seen atm.

your reply applies to idealistic investors but in certain situations, masses flow stupidly. and with apple masses are speculating. no dividend means people are waiting for bigger share price. with companies that pay constant dividends, price solely means nothing. and if dividends stay at certain level, real time pricing of stock has no effect to anything.

lpotter

2010-07-12 09:03

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

You meant to say, "Should google drop android and go with meego and symbian". In which case, yes.

cashclientel

2010-07-12 09:46

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?

@lpotter of Nokia Corporation
Is that an honest opinion!

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