Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Of course it is.. why wouldn't it be...?

Any platform creator/proprietor/developer would want as many users as possible on their creations..

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

No. I meant exactly what I said. It has absolutely nothing to do with Apple. I've been an investor since the mid-80's and if you're trying to pull in how investors follow trends, let's put that to a rest right now.

The trend is to make money. The other situations, such as historical reasons to invest into a company ideal for altruistic reasons... that's being idealistic. And as of late, foolish.

Speculation is just that... speculation. You speculate like you do a hot area that might or might not have gold. And in this case, to see Nokia go from ~40 per share to ~8 per share, the disappointment is well-deserved. And I'm quite sure the dividends have not remained at the same level. To believe otherwise shows an entire lack of understanding in investing.

Here's your proof. It's currently on par with what was paid out in 2006 - around 48 cents per stock, down from 84 cents per stock in 2008.

This is yet another deflated stock that would probably be worthwhile purchasing - I just bought some - if your goals are indeed long-term and the management shakes out to forge a direction that's accepted by all shareholders as the right step forward.

Right now, that's not the case.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

nokia should drop meego and install vsync in maemo.
then game over.
FOR EVERY OTHER PHONE OUT THERE!

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

What you might see, in terms of openness, is a severe lack of any real difference between Google's Android and Nokia's Maemo (possibly MeeGo, if it maintains the same damned status quo where community can't fix their own bugs for all the closed components Nokia forces into their damned OS images, with no usable alternative OS to turn to on these devices). Basically, it's a lack of advantage compared to Android.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

The advantage to MeeGo is that it is not bound to Nokia devices. There are some inescapable bits (thus far) with all ARM devices, namely the 3D drivers and the like tend to be closed. The only handset without this issue seems to be the Aava devkit but, well, yeah.

The -core- of MeeGo is open, which is important. And thus far, it's possible to assemble a MeeGo image with the closed bits pulled in. With luck, anyone should be able to pull those closed bits themselves and merge them with whatever (Linux-based) OS you want to install.

Getting a fully open device would be REALLY FREAKING NICE, but lacking that is not a reason to push towards Google's platform in lieu of MeeGo, IMO.

Driver and binary blob situation being equal between MeeGo and Android, MeeGo is not controlled by Google exclusively. That exclusive control (and single source dependency) makes vendors like Motorola nervous. MeeGo's independence is attractive from the same standpoint that makes the Linux kernel attractive, and hopefully will draw in vendors.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Having lived through the whole N800 era up to now, I'll believe it when I see it. I feel like I can no longer believe that Nokia wouldn't cripple it up like they have so far, even up to today.

So, once again, you're pointing out how Nokia isn't any different from any other not-really-open handset maker, and putting it on even keel with Android. Why bother with Meamo or MeeGo, if I can get better support from another hardware manufacturer and Android keeps getting fixed up and supported better and more often than the Maemo track record this far?

I thought Nokia had provided binary driver bits for Maemo before too. How did that work out? How was getting bugfixes and updates for them? Still seems hostile to open-source. Also, I highly recommend you read http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s...00704191126134

Why not? So far, I have pushed associates, friends and family that way and they've been MUCH happier after the N800 fiascos. You have NO idea how much better it has been to support them even though I insist on working in open-source environments. Ultimately, I need to go where the experience is better and Nokia with Maemo has left all of us with painful experiences to remember when the time comes around to purchase new devices and the operating system to work with.

Let's hope that turn into a genuine advantage--MeeGo is a new name, but having Nokia involved makes me wonder how much Maemo status quo will influence the end product and direction.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Haven't really been following the thread..

Just dropped by to say:

Nokia's phones based on MeeGo could very likely be just another N8x0 or N900. It could very well contain other proprietary bits and pieces that make it not run on anything else.

This is not the fault MeeGo though, MeeGo itself (the way it appears to be planned anyway), should not be bound by any hardware requirements short of the hardware that linux itself is bound by.

Remember, MeeGo is just the framework and OS - the UI, Interface, UX, etc.. will all be different from manufacturer to manufacturer and you likely will find manufacturers using MeeGo to sell iphone-like closed phones.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Umm... No :) That's like saying Debian is just a framework and Ubuntu is the OS because it includes all those fancy closed bits and eyecandy tweaks. MeeGo is NOT a framework, it IS a full blown OS. It *can* be customized, preloaded (and diluted) by manufacturers who push it under a different name and/or package, but that does make MeeGo less of an OS.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

You're not really helping to argue against anything I just said in this debate. :P

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

That is very close to how I see it, actually.

Ubuntu is Debian. It's just debian modified, more-so than most phones will be from MeeGo. It would be like, if Ubuntu used debian's own repo's and just setup sudo-packages to pre-install certain configurations.

That is how I see MeeGo operating.

The MeeGo we get from phone to phone is likely to have a very different user experience. Somewhat like the HTC Sense UI vs MotoBlur vs ... the Nook.

And some (or most) of those experiences can and likely will be very proprietary and unable to screw with.

Just because MeeGo goes the way of, say, pulseaudio or alsa or whatever, doesn't mean the end phone based on MeeGo needs to. They can have their own proprietary system in there if they want. Our current issue in Maemo with the audio system is it's not documented, and the core media apps are closed right? Nothing is stopping Nokia from doing this all over again with their phone based on MeeGo.

MeeGo is just the basic OS.. everything on top of that will be up to the discretion of the manufacturer. Unless you're telling me that the Linux Foundation is going to start requiring people using MeeGo to abide by certain rules to using their OS....

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

I'm not arguing any side.

What I am saying is that MeeGo is a separate and independent entity. I am saying that yes, Nokia can do the same things they've always done using MeeGo as the base, and proprietizing everything on top.. and so can everyone else.

But that in no way limits, de-legitimizes, or affects MeeGo itself. Just Nokia's version of it.

The comment I quoted from you implies Nokia would cripple MeeGo.. that's like saying by Maemo being based on debian packages it cripples debian. That's not the case.

Debian is still alive and well and fine... Nokia's edition of it is ... somewhat lacking.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

And if they do, they're hanging themselves. That will (hopefully) have nothing to do with MeeGo proper.

With hope, MeeGo will be able to move faster than Android as it pulls from numerous other sources, each of which providing far more focus on their part, rather than banking on a single provider for everything except the kernel.

And if you're a hardware vendor? You can say "MeeGo Powered" in an about box and place -your- branding all over instead of Google's. And maybe (just maybe) they could start pressing the US carriers to not demand exclusivity and crippling branding.

Did I say that having the closed bits was OK? No, I said that it's unavoidable in the ARM space, and short of buying an Aava Mobile handset we aren't getting a fully open handset any time soon.

The best we can do is push it out of the core such that the OS is in no way crippled by its exclusion. Unlike, say, the closed bits of Maemo that make it useless without them or the example you cite. If anyone tries to push for that, you blame the handset manufacturer and don't buy their device. I'd rather not toss in the trash all of the work done by the open source community in exchange for a stack that was never meant to be open to begin with, just because it's got a tiny lead.

Believe me, I want an open device, top to bottom. But the way things are, it's a wash so I'll support a push for a handset OS that isn't controlled totally by a single entity and keep hounding hardware companies for open drivers.

Hopefully MeeGo will see adoption by another handset vendor and Nokia's influence won't be felt.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Not sure if this was already discussed (I do not like these monster threads):

There was a report on radio yesterday (marketplace). They talked about the iPhone 4 problems and that the next big competitor is coming. They said something like "... it is Google's new phone, the Droid X". Nowhere did they mention that Motorola (or is it HTC ???) is making the phone.

If Nokia goes Android, they would be just another commodity manufacturer (for better or worse).

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Don't you think that Nokia has the potential to make MeeGo a failure? Will MeeGo proper run anywhere else where that won't be a problem, then?

Considering you're also fighting Nokia's unbelievably source code closed-mindedness and the very likely push-back from carriers, how (please tell!) do you think this will go? Simply saying, "You can put 'MeeGo Powered' on your menu!" isn't a selling point--it needs to mean something that CUSTOMERS want, and the whole "your branding" is silly--anyone can already do that with Android. I've got Verizon apps on my Droid that came with it and it's clearly a Verizon phone. Let's not underestimate things with the carriers and competition, here.

And there's "the thing." I don't have a lot of faith in MeeGo until I see someone else involved. Nokia has been an utter disappointment. If Nokia was a guy, I would have kicked his legs out and repeatedly kicked him in the ribs, for the way they've made me feel as a repeat customer of their crap over the last couple of years. I'm only glad I'm not THAT dependent on their products, despite their attempts through crippling. I wish they'd concentrate on making the products we WANT and supporting their customers.

Good luck to MeeGo. If I had to wager, though, my guess is that it'll fade away to obscurity like a lot of similar attempts (uLinux, we hardly knew ya! Yopi was cute. Maemo.. well, you made a good first impression and then you got really ugly and mean.). heh

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Versus.. what? The continuing downward trend toward failure, like now? If Nokia produced Android phones in addition to MeeGo, they would at least be competing and making sure their brand was relevant. SELL THE CUSTOMERS WHAT THEY WANT. Is that really so hard to understand?

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Considering that Intel is pushing it along with Nokia, I don't see how. At this point anyone can grab it and move forward, doing effectively all the same work they have to do with Android now, minus having to depend on Google to continue development.

Which has no bearing on MeeGo, since they can't retroactively close anything that's part of the OS. If you're talking about hardware, then we can be noisy or pick a manufacturer who will listen.

Which is why exclusivity is bad for consumers.

Hold on. Stop. It's a selling point for the VENDOR to use the OS. The -only- thing the end user cares about is that the device does what it is supposed to, and has a means of installing software.
"MeeGo Powered" just states a level of compatibility.

And they also have to slather it with Google branding. IIRC, Intel's AppUp is serviced by a common back-end, with the front-end brandable by the vendor.

Possibly. I certainly hope not.

uLinux? Do you mean ucLinux, which is still quite popular for embedded applications, aimed more at microcontrollers than PDAs and phones?

It also happened ten years ago. Everything has picked up steam since then.

All I've heard is "Android was there first, it wins, stop bothering. Oh and Nokia sucks." I'm tired of arguing against naysayers and people who conflate Nokia with MeeGo. I'd rather not end up with Google and Apple in control of mobile computing, but if you're OK with that, then by all means.

That's more accurate.

But I don't WANT Android. I'm sure many people who bought the N900 didn't want Android either, or they would have jumped on the DROID or Nexus One.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

And again I'm just popping in for a random thought:

I've seen, from an end user perspective, more Intel than Nokia in everything MeeGo to-date.

Intel's handset platform is the official platform, it actually works(!!!!!!), and has flashable images. On the N900.. we have to build and compile our own.

Intels UI is used on Netbooks.

A rather similar look and feel is used for the official Handset UX.

The Nokia N900 doesn't even have proper backlight controlling with MeeGo without hacking it.

So: While I am positive work has been done by Nokia for MeeGo... as an advanced power-user trying to test out the new stuff: The only stuff I can see... looks like Intel has had the most push into MeeGo.

Looking at what works in the AAVA Intel Handset videos of the current MeeGo vs what works on my N900 is about like looking at the iPhone or Android's phone app compared to the bolted-on-phone app in Maemo. The Nokia N900 in all cases that I can tell is but an afterthought in this process so far.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Why would seeing more Intel than Nokia be a positive thing? It's not like they pushed Moblin.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

That is not how MeeGo is operating. Certain vendors, sure (but didn't we have bastardized Linux distros with TiVo, Archos, etc ?), but that's a different story. 'Cause no matter what Ubuntu does, it can only go so far from Debian without cutting it's umbilical cord, unlike Maemo, which has drifted halfway across the universe from Debian in the same timeframe. MeeGo will try to establish itself as the rock everybody builds on, and that's the best it can do (seriously, it's Free - the make-them-all-use-what-you-say-to-the-letter is Windows Phone 7 land).

'Based on MeeGo' != MeeGo. If it doesn't have the required stuff, you can call it whatever you want, but it's not MeeGo.

I'm telling you that. It is the reason some people are still kicking themselves because they don't know how to call Harmattan without shooting MeeGo in the foot on one side or shooting Harmattan in on the other.

Even if we forego the usual short-sightedness of customers being totally clueless as to what lead times are, production of Android phones IN ADDITION to MeeGo is the silliest idea of them all. MeeGo is the direct competitor of Android, even official Nokia material/people say that. How do you push your platform by shipping devices with the platform you want to capture market share FROM ? It's like saying RedHat should sell Windows Server licenses/services too because customers want that.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

No, that's precisely the way it will be I think, and personally I'd rather not have it any other way.

We have a chance to make our offering compelling enough for people to want to use it *more than* the proprietary offerings - work on that, and let market forces do their work.. :)

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

I'm not saying positive or negative. Just different. Dan obviously has HUGE daddy Nokia (;)) issues... I was saying that I feel/see more influence from Intel than from anything maemo-like in MeeGo.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Well.. if you both say so I'll bow to the experts: But that is most certainly not the way I've ever seen a free linux-based system distributed. Well.. short of maybe Android.

MeeGo is free, completely open, and any manufacturer can grab it and make whatever they want from it as far as I understand. I would think it goes completely against the Linux Foundation, and most open source, to say "In order to use this - you must do XYZ with your PDQ".

I'd be .. very surprised to say the least..

I'm not saying I disagree, or that I think it's a bad idea - but I do see trying to tell manufacturers they can't do certain things in a proprietary way if they want to borrow code from MeeGo will actually limit it's adoption, not promote it.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Few points.

Right now, you do, yes. This isn't the end of the line, though. Two things have lead to this being "the state of affairs" for the time being. One, a number of problems on the n900 demanding more attention than image building (wifi totally crapping out, various other issues), two, it is July. Summer in Finland. This means most of Finland is on holiday. ;)

I think that once people are back at their desks, things will start ticking along faster. There's already progress being made on #meego-arm/meego-dev, today, a lot of wifi issues got sorted for instance, and some progress on power management.

Look and feel doesn't really mean a lot, but when you already have one (open) look and feel, it doesn't make a lot of sense to get them to reinvent themselves (delaying the netbook release) - instead, it makes sense to fit in with it and go along with the plan.

See points above. (Might also be worth asking on list or IRC what you can do to help get this fixed in an automated way? Many hands..)

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

I think you misinterpreted me totally there :P

This, was exactly what I was saying, is the great thing. Someone can come take MeeGo, butcher it with their own proprietary crap, and it'll sink like a stone because - I sincerely hope - it won't be able to keep pace with working in the open.

Never has there been a better time to show that OSS can shine.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

In car terms, Intel put a body kit on Moblin and called it a day (really, the netbook MeeGo is just that - Moblin), as opposed to Nokia, which got a Moblin chassis and now needs to fit the engine, make a custom bodywork for it, etc. It's no wonder the Intel part is 'more ready'.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

This would be a stop gap money grab for Nokia. But luckily for people like me, they don't base their strategy on short term commercial success, but long term stability as well as a philosophy they seem unwilling to extinguish.

Nokia wants to connect people as well as connect people to TECHNOLOGY. Not just some people, or rich people, or people living in democracies with developed infrastructure, but ALL people.

Android alone won't address the massive low economic customers, which are where 98%+ of the next billion customers in wireless will come from. Symbian does that, at price points Android can only dream to mimick. If Nokia adopted Android, it would diminish their commitment to Symbian, since Symbian and Android are direct competitors in the mid to high end segment.

MeeGo will take the lion's share of that high end from Symbian, which will be pushed down market to absorb their large high end featurephone converts at similar price points. MeeGo runtime support and capabilites for developers will blow anything on the market out of the water, assuming WebOS doesn't adopt a similar architecture.

Android, iOS, WP7, and Blackberry OS aren't even close from a developer standpoint in terms of what is possible. It has manufacturer support from heavyweights like Dell, Fujitsu, and many others. It has a chance to dominate the high end and tablet market. Its shared Qt ecosystem with market dominating Symbian makes things that much more attractive to commercial developers eager to compete with Google on a more even playing field.

Both these OSes share core UI and application toolkits, which makes it a formidable ecosystem and a worthy situation to Nokia for massive investment. The short term profits gained and man hours wasted on Android instead of Qt and MeeGo/Symbian are greatly exceeded by the long term profits they stand to make spending that investment just as they have.

No other competitor has even close to the same opportunity. Google can't reach the low end with its thirst for Snapdragons and CPU cycles. Neither can Apple, and I doubt they want to. Microsoft abandoned it wiht its high system requirements. RIM hasn't attracted the high end well...

So what, Nokia should support THREE OSes?!? Of course not. They'll continue to improve Symbian's UI, with a new version coming this winter. Their lead over Android is safe, based on the time it took Apple to obtain its current state. Remember, Symbian has GROWN marketshare.

That is sound business strategy, and if executed well, can be considered a true revolutionary and daring success. My bets are on MeeGo/Qt.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Ok, I somehow am getting the idea you and I are on completely the same page but somehow are crossing wires....

My only comment, originally, was directed at Dan talking about Nokia butchering MeeGo like, in his mind, they've done throughout the past.

I was saying that Yes, that is perfectly possible that Nokia will do so with their edition of their MeeGo phone (keep in mind: Not talking about the Q4 2010 Harmattan phone .. I'm talking future entirely-meego based phone should one ever come from Nokia - we would assume yes at some point..) - but that regardless what proprietary or any parts Nokia adds and wants to hold onto like a child and their blankey.. does not reflect negatively or in anyway hinder upstream, main MeeGo.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Well I know it's not the end of the line ;).. I don't expect it to be perfect here.. we're in pre-alpha alpha peek-a-boo stages right now.

But I did expect the N900 to be the most complete, or at least be on par with whatever other platforms they were using, when it was released. I was under the impression (and they still maintain) the N900 is the main ARM development device for MeeGo.. so I was quite surprised to see that it was lacking quite a bit from the AAVA handset from Intel.

In ANY case.. since none of this is related to the thread at hand :D.. the point I was making on this is that Danramos is saying he doesn't expect much from MeeGo because he doesn't expect much from Nokia.

I'm saying what does he expect from Intel? Cuz that's the presence we mostly see (right now, not future) - Now, if he has a specific objection to hating both Intel AND Nokia.. then he can hate on MeeGo too ;).

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Well, considering the goals of MeeGo, they're sure as hell making it more and more difficult for themselves to do that. Who knows, maybe it's a good thing, eh ? :)

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

s/Linux/UNIX/g

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

I.. am absolutely horrid with cars... but you actually made sense here. Maybe I won't be so critical of the N900's apparent lack of support to-date.

Why did we go with their chassis though... (I know, I know.. whole other debate...)

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

I'm with you, my man.

How about a religion analogy? Android is John the Baptist and MeeGo and/or Ubuntu is Jesus. Android will hopefully keep fighting fragmentation and continue to blaze a trail on Cortex A-[89] platforms that will then allow a real GNU/Linux distribution to smoothly slip-in to say a Motorola Droid or Droid X. That's when we'll know that an OSS handset/tablet OS has arrived.

TI OMAP[34] is the Intel/AMD x86

and

Imagination Technologies is the NVIDIA.

And the in-line kernel changes that MeeGo and maybe Ubuntu will bring will support more and more hardware.

The End of the Beginning.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

hallelujah, and then you will be able to buy a mobile computer just like you do a desktop or laptop one now, same hardware, different os possibilities. mix and match your processor, screen size, hard keyboard or no, and have your choice of windows, ios, linux, java(android),bada, symbian, whatever. just like now i can buy some dell models off the shelf and install windows, various linux, opensolaris, macosx, whatever.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

I just read that the Droid X bootloader was locked. Does that mean a boot will fail if something such as the kernel-to-be-loaded isn't properly signed?

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Correct. No custom kernels, no custom ROMs.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Palm did that when they started selling devices with wince. Didn't stop them from dying though :)

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Hope you don't mind me linking to this in my signature (slightly paraphrased for maximum impact ;-).

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

To be fair, I'd not exactly call being purchased by HP 'alive'.

A zombie, even if it still produces phones, is still a zombie. ;)

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Just remember... shoot it in the...faceplate? :p

From what I have seen of WebOS though.. I do like it. Hopefully HP can keep WebOS alive... even if Palm is now zombified.

Re: Topic of the Day: Should Nokia Drop Meego and roll with Android?
 

Heh.. not so much daddy issues as much as maybe trust and abandonment issues with Nokia. :)

I haven't had a lot of exposure to Intel in the way I did with Nokia--but I've seen Intel go both ways. I've seen them work AGAINST open-source sometimes, then work FOR it other times. So, I'm not sure what to think about Intel's involvement.