Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

Gimme a shoulder to cry on?

Last I checked, we're the consumers, believers and users of Maemo products. If people get disenfranchised in mass numbers, then there's a solid reason behind it. Identify the core of the problem(s) and then raise awareness.

Either it will get fixed by Nokia or this community (for a pending community supported product) will fix it. If neither happens, the vitriol towards Nokia and especially this community is warranted.

If there's no plan to get behind the bugs that are considered fixable, addressable or patchable, then why even have this community? Look to the Diablo Community SSU for cooperation, communication, testing and open discussion as it should be.

Why are we here? So we can gush over the latest Nokia product? So we can gush over the N900 or N810? So we can remember that we're social beings that like to be heard?

Or because this community should be taking the helm away from Nokia, do so in a cohesive and direct way and start solving problems as opposed to creating new ones?

Commiseration and cooperation are parts of what makes a community. At the moment, neither are truly happening.

So perhaps that is what people would like to see done... things actually get done that benefit their investments. Not praise. Not product placement. Not a reminder that folks will have a new option to buy in Q4 2010. Identify and fix the bugs as a community should.

Just my thoughts.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

Bashing community members who have endeavored to do exactly that is counterproductive to that goal.

Note: that was a general statement, not aimed at you, gerbick.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

I think these constant goodbyes are silly. At the end of the day this os is no different from the rest. What do you need nokia to support? They pretty much got everything right the first time. led camera stuff, great screen res, keyboard, so on and so on. You need apps? why? you have a great browser that can do all the things the apps claim to do.

If you say good bye... you'll be back, just like world wars.

cheers.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

Well that thread was positively nuclear, so I am not sure about that.

The goodbye post reminds me of a software developer version of Hit em up by Tupac.

edit: he is 16?! that's mad

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

I don't disagree.. but my understanding is most of peoples complaints are revolved around closed source components. Both within Maemo itself and also apps they see from android/iphone that we can't access.

From what I've seen the community around here has been pretty good at building feasible apps that people request. Someone wanted a call blocker.. someone else wrote a script for it.. someone else either showed the writer.. or took the script and made a deb for it IIRC.

We got told we couldnt have flash 10.. so several people found out how to trick flash into thinking it was 10..then someone else made an easy package for it. Is this the perfect solution? No.. but it's the best we can do as outsiders to both Nokia and Apple.. at least until someone figures out how to use the Android binary.. and then it may not be legal.

Then there is qwerty12.. he was very good at taking the closed components and managing to reverse engineer them and make them do what we wanted.. such as the volume keys to skip in his exit, or the fmtx thing he worked on.. or the pulseaudio hacks to get apps to register themselves properly.

etc.

So as a community.. I think we're doing ok.. that is: if you can find the decent threads amongst all the noise like this one. And yes, Ill say it, even the dev thank you thread in response to this one.

Now the ATMOSPHERE is different... that sucks here. The thing is.. we are responsible for our own attitudes.. we can't blame Nokia for our inability to not piss on our own floor. Can we get mad at Nokia? of course.. can we get angry with their policies? yes.. But screaming about it fixes nothing. We should instead be asking ourselves if WE can fix this problem ourselves. Sometimes yes, Sometimes no.. and in that case we go "that sucks" and move on.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

So, from what I understand, some people here are saying that we (yes, we the one's buying Nokia products) should just accept Nokia's inability or unwillingness to support a product that we paid at least US $500 for?
At least a couple of years of support / updates?
Is that so much to ask?

They decided to drop Maemo and develop Meego. Fine, but at least make your only Maemo device work with Meego.

I won't even start talking about Flash 10.1 because some people here are just too thick.

Edit:
And another thing that annoys me is that I convinced a couple of workmates to buy the N900. I now feel responsible for making them buy a $500 brick. Should have let them get an iPhone.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

So much to ask? Of course not.. we feel the same way. There's nothing we can do about it.

As many have said.. go complain to Nokia.. we here.. we need to focus on how to make the best out of what we have. If you don't want to do that/don't care to work that much for your device that's perfectly acceptable.. sell it if possible, and get another platform that is a better fit for you.

Complaining here (especially repeatedly).. does nothing.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

Not exactly, it bites on Nokia reputation which is a cornerstone of business.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

No. Don't accept Nokia's incompetenance but don't pollute a forum with pointless rants and whining making it a pain for everyone else. And worse the fanboys easily take the bait and start defending Nokia making this look like a Nokia apologist site.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Nokia does not pay attention to this site. And Qgil (one of the few Nokia employees) that once frequented this site likely can't do anythig to change orders from higher up. You think it's easy? Why don't you go to your boss' boss and tell them they are screwing up.

You want to get Nokia's attention? Do something constructive than destructive. Alot of people are discontented on this site, so gather them up. Get them to mass e-mail major tech blogs about Nokia's failure. Get stories. Talk to customer support and pass it onto blogs. Bad press will get Nokia's attention, not whining on a forum they easily ignore. All whining does is make people less likely to help you. It pushes away the developers in this community from publicy posting on this site and makes people who were willing to help turn away in disgust.

This is not directed at you personally H3llb0und but at what I think part of this community has become. And I'm sadden that what I see as the useful group in this community continue to disintegrate due to Nokia and what this community has become.

Not really. You only know of this community because.

a) You own a maemo device
b) You were considering a maemo device

And the community of people who want to buy or own a maemo device isn't that big. Most people buying Nokia phones out there are buying dumbphones and Symbian phones. People here would do more damage Nokia's reputation if they organized and actually got some help from bigger voices out there.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

I had always thought that one (the only?) point in having a 'Council' w/in a community that is so tied to a commercial entity is to have that Council be the liaison between the community and the corporation.

Reading here http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council it does state that "The Council's mission is to "represent the Maemo community's best interests to Nokia".

So when you, as you have repeatedly done in this thread, *** what WE have done to 'fix things' I'd like to think that one answer is that 'we' bring up issues w/in the community forum and, hopefully, the 'Council' then realize these issues and brings them to Nokia's attention.

[Rant On]
I have however said in the past that I find the Council to be powerless, unstructured, incompetent and ineffective - and now, months later that SUBJECTIVE sentiment still stands.

I don't recall ever seeing a project plan with actual dates for anything the Council 'resides' over - or have listed as 'Hot Topics'. Nothing seems to get resolved and issues are either completely ignored or just sits in limbo for a year until it fades.

If anything I would vote for the 'Council' to be abolished next term as I bet no one would be able to tell the difference a year later.

It would however, I'm sure, be traumatic for some people to not have that dinky-toy title associated with them so there would be some resistance.
[/Rant Off]

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

c) because I read about it in engadget or gizmodo or slashgear or ... I don't remember. But device came in without any reference to this community.

... but listen to other people stories and read about it in some news sites.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

So you came to this community because of an Engadget, Gizmodo, Slashgear,etc.. article and you were considering a maemo device.


My point is that if you want to cause a significant dent in Nokia you need to get news of Nokia's stunts on the Engadget, Gizmodo, Slashgear level. A slow trickle of unsatisfied users coming here and then coming out will eventually wear down Nokia but by then you'll be an old man.

Edit: And Nokia will already have your money.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

It is a fair comment although. Maemo died that very day when Meego was announced ... no more Maemo after that, marginal support to no support here on in. Focus has completely turned to Meego, and their are bugs and issues already being labeled as "WONT FIX", and the kicker was no Meego official support for the N900 so meaning no future heading, even BB6 is available to the older Bold 9700 but Nokia is out to lunch on this. Again that was a fair point and we can't sugar coat it for Nokia based on a technicality.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

It's not the number of thanks how people's role should be measured to this community. :(

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

I wanted to replace my Palm m500 and I was tired with moving my addressbook/database/notes/etc to new platform yet-another-time. So, I decided that I need an open source platform - it is much easy to extract records from open source application files rather then private closed source. For exam HI-Note is not supported and died and I needed to use a complicated scheme to get records.

So, Nokia Linux box was very attractive (and still attractive, actually) after I learned about it. Besides that Nokia has an excellent reputation in RF reception.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

I'd thank you for that post, but what's the point... :D

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

damn nokia... geez i thought they were going to support this til the end.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

What you've described though... was application development.

I'm talking about OS support/development. That's where I think the closed bits + lack of support will become a problem. fMMS, DialCentral, et al has shown that this community knows how to develop applications... no doubt.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

LoL, nice one, I thanked you for giving me a good laugh, ;D

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

Forget that, if Nokia cannot walk the walk then they shouldn't talk the talk simple as that. Nokia makes great phones, but none of the phones had the entire package and focus put into it. Used and sourced hardware that believe in Open Source culture (Nokia has the clout to open these avenues and hasn't done enough in that regard). I rather see a company fully embrace it than see it warp and abuse the culture. Also fear not if they go the opposite way, it was money they came this way in the first place don't believe it otherwise ... and it will be only the loss of money that will take them the fully closed source model. Don't be naive, be a realists and know money, profits, and market share are the sole reasons for any decision and for Nokia the current strategy bodes well for them. So you might as well hold them accountable every chance you get as their are certain guidelines to follow in this sector don't ever let the company dictate their terms to you ... that is not open source values.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

There's actually a post stating that???

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

So easy to armchair quarterback. To call names. To lay blame. To ignore effort and accomplishment.

So much more difficult to work one's *** off in such an apparently thankless position.

You think you're disappointed when council efforts come to nothing, silvermountain? Try putting in the hours I have. Try putting together a community outreach program and, just as you gain momentum after hours and hours and hours of design, review and discussion, the very reason for it disappears. Try writing and maintaining a blog partially dedicated to the community and having to stay on top of it to delete the juvenile nastygrams left by anonymous cowards. Try countless emails about community issues to various executives with no replies.

Try bending over backwards for myriad members of a community, some of whom leave petty, churlish posts like yours here as a "reward" for the effort.

As a community leader, council member or otherwise, I have gone to bat for this place and its people-- including you in all your nasty ingratitude. I was the one staying after work to dig through spare N800 parts, slicing my fingers on faceplates in the process, and mailing them out free to anyone who asked. I was the one who put my job at risk, angering people like Quim by challenging the tablet program to do better by the community. I'm the one enduring all the grief that malcontents like you dish out at a distance, in such cowardly fashion, because I'm stupid enough to care about people I'll never meet.

And that goes for every council member who's ever served.

Unstructured? Maybe to the anal retentive. Incompetent? An ironic assessment. Powerless and ineffective? Sure, at times. But only a complete idiot would confuse Nokia's monolithic resistance to change with the fault of five community people who care enough to devote their free time to that "futility".

What have YOU done?

Unbelieveable.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

You are kidding right?
Please tell me you are kidding.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

Right so now, again, we're back to stuff we can't really do much about.

<break from quote>

Look, to everyone arguing that complaining here does you good.. No, it doesn't! If you have something new that you don't think the council hasn't already pressed several times already.. then post. However, a liason between two entities can only do any good when both sides listen. In this case.. one side is largely ignoring several problems hoping that if they pretend it doesn't exist.. it'll just go away.. and that is not the council's fault.

Effectively.. Nokia has won though. They took this site, financed it, and then gave it to a "community" so you guys all bunched together on a forum to whine and complain and then they can conveniently ignore you. See how nicely that played out?

If you want to do something.. do as someone else suggested - gather as a group and mass email Nokia and blogs and make a difference.

This site is community-driven. The vast majority of people here participate on their free time, without getting paid. What we can try and help you with.. is applications you feel you're missing or (some) behavior you may want to change on your phone.

What we cannot help you with... is your daddy issues. Sure.. we have a Mommy (Council) here.. but when Dad's deaf and Mom doesn't speak Sign Language then what good is repeating yourself over and over again?

Anyone know the quote? "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." We're playing it out well here..

ETA:

Texrat...
http://www.crunchgear.com/wp-content/photos/Hugs.jpg

:D

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

the way some people defend nokia here does indicate that.

sometimes its better to copy a working scheme than to create a new one that has flaws.
i dont think anybody unappreciates what nokia tried with the n900, especially the ones in this community that are fond maemo/linux, but whats the price of it?

i mean, what would happen if apple dismissed their iphone 4 tomorrow? rest assure, hell's gonna break loose.

what would nokia do if the n900 had the iphone 4's problem? put on their coolface and ignore it?

if the council reported stuff to nokia and if nokia reacted to issues the community points out, then the council wouldnt need to press "something" several times.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

Can you show me?

Indicate? He said people have excused Nokia for not supporting the product. Forget indicate, that's subjective. What posts?

We report every major community issue to Nokia. Usually ad nauseum. I'm still trying to understand how Nokia's resulting inaction is our fault. Help me out.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

What surprised me was the amount of users/fanboy's saying they broadly agreed with Qwerty12's grievances despite showing no signs of it on previous threads (quite the opposite in fact).

Would have cut short alot of arguments on other threads.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

Dude I respect you and all you have done for this community, but are you telling me that you need an official post, announcement, open letter or Nokia's CEO to make a public statement to realize that Nokia just doesn't care about the N900 anymore?

Unless you know something that no one else here knows...

I have always defended the N900 and Maemo, but after being kicked in the nut sack a few times by Nokia, I am not going to give them another chance.

Edit:
Texrat, I think you are taking this too personally.
I am not attacking you or anyone else here, just Nokia.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

That wasn't what you said. I'm responding to your specific words.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

True.. and again.. the fault here lies with, who? exactly?

I don't know if you meant me.. but one thing I can offer:

Some of us don't see the point in constantly complaining about **** we can't change.. so we work on the projects we're involved in and make our devices as much what we want them to be as we can.

Just because someone doesn't flood every thread going "Gosh, Nokia Sucks!" doesn't make them a fanboy. Same goes for just because someone says "That's not actually Nokia's fault".. because not everything can be blamed on someone else.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

I did not say that there is a post or any other official word from Nokia stating anything. Actions speak louder than words.

I'm sorry but English is not my first language.
If you are going to take this discussion into semantics or whatever, I'm out.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

Splitting hairs over semantics was not my intention. In fact, I was trying to avoid that actually.

Sorry if we locked horns unnecessarily.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

There were too many users to remember. But main thing is these users often jump at Goodbye threads with snide put downs, label them trolls or worse, put the opposition below Nokia and accepting second rate treatment. Basically anything but acknowledging the posters upset. He once had dreams with his device as well and doesn't deserve to reduced to a number... hes already got that treatment from Nokia.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

And for this community to fully support the upcoming Maemo OS, that doesn't bother you that it's considered something that can't be done about yet?

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

Ahhh.. that takes the intent a little differently.

To this, I actually addressed inside qwerty12's own thread. See this for my thoughts of why qwerty12's thread received a slightly different response than your typical "NOKIA SUCKS! I H8 U SUKKAZ! 'DROID DOES' *****!" threads.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

I was burned pretty badly over Mer too, don't forget. I really wanted Mer on my N810 to be functional.

Yes there were reasons, no I don't blame the people involved, but none of that matters. What matters is that we did not get our OS that we were so hopeful for.

So yes.. I understand your comment.

That is also why I am following MeeGo very closely, and so far I've been impressed. I can actually boot this into a full graphical UI and launch apps! It certainly is by no means ready to do anything beyond look "cute" (sort of.. can't say I'm impressed with the UI, actually.) but it looks promising.

However, you'll notice that I have stated several times that I am not comfortable with the fact MeeGo has to be retrieved from Nokia.com and not Meego.com. I have said that several times. Stskeeps has responded to that several times.. and again we're at a wait and see game.

But for now.. why would I make the same mistake as Nokia? Why would I ignore the device that is currently sitting in my hands to look at something that isn't even beyond the alpha stage yet?

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

Sure but the same points have been reasoned and laboured many times before within the threads. But its a little vindication I guess but sad it had to come through this.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

Dude I'm sure people appreciate the work, but come on at the feet of Maemo obsolescence can the Maemo council sit and not say what community members are feeling. The N900 non-support was a raw deal, the flash issue not coming to light is becoming bothersome, Nokia hardware repair being anal for some issues, the WONTFIX bugs beginning to creep up, lack of Ovi Maps navigation ... and so on and so forth.

I think you guys fight on these behalfs, but behind closed doors which is not good enough to expedite Nokia to do anything. I fully understand what the 'qwerty12' dude was going on about ... the council is the last people steering this pile of **** and you guys are currently under the thumb of Nokia not the community. The community is asking you to tell Nokia a big F-you even though the effectiveness is not known. We should be boycotting the future phones until they change plans on the N900 obsolescence, create a Facebook group saying Nokia sucks, espouse social activism to get what this community needs ... working with them will only get you as far as the next news cycle, once the next phone is announced it will be Maemo who? This community is at the best place right now to hold Nokia accountable, a small window if it passes then they will repeat this culture of poor support year after year ... they won't learn so long as the entire community can unilaterally say no more of these lackluster efforts. Also who cares if they recoil back to a closed source mentality, in my opinion things can only get better once we vent what the community is feeling. I like the blogs on Tabula Crypticum and so your work is valued ... but this is a publicity war and how does one cooperate with Nokia when as qwerty12 would say we are at the *** end of the deal.

Yes what I, qwerty12 and others are saying seems unthinkable and not thought out. But I ask what of this community remains once Meego comes out? Even the council became obsolete the day Meego was announced, people are leaving, some are so disenfranchised they make posts which are sane to read but irrational to post as it just lists reasons for leaving. What can you guys do, firstly stop bothering with Meego issues ... you are Maemo council not Meego council. Put out a public memo airing the disillusionment for N900 not being supported any further beyond Maemo 5. List the issues that need to be resolved by Nokia to earn the communities recommendation for future Nokia devices, organize Nokia boycott campaigns (in my opinion a better use of your free time when dealing with council duties) ... so again you can help the community by telling Nokia what we truly think ... stick it where the sun don't shine if you do not address our concerns.

I know why some can be a bit hesitant, tarnishing the rep of a good phone company. You know what I don't work their and so don't others, and Nokia hasn't impressed for a while now. As a consumer I think that they did everything wrong to date, and as to the future positioning they have made I think it is pointless now as they have pissed any goodwill that existed. Air the concerns, and stop trying to keep the piece ... the community is dieing might as well supernova and explode on Nokia's face as they have created the conditions for this.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

I that in a nutshell shows how inadequately equipped/staffed/organized the "Council" is (sorry for using quotation marks but I swear I can't take that 'organization' seriously).

If you time after time after time do something and you don't get any reaction or response - then why keep doing it in the same way?

Arrange sit-downs (virtual/physical with Nokia representatives), ask for key contacts that you can go through and set expectations in terms of what you can expect from them, arrange for petitions/signatures for main issues, use other channels (gizmodo/techcrunch, etc, etc) to let Nokia know about that there are things that needs to be fixed, etc, etc.

And if none of that, and other attempts doesn't work - then it is obvious that as a 'Council' you have no purpose and that your tag-line is useless and the whole thing should be phased out.

Sorry to be harsh but to have as a defense and reason for existence that you 'try but never get anything done' is very, very weak and it might just be time to man up and realize that Nokia does not take this 'body' seriously.

Re: BYE BYE N900 - Sad day Nokia!
 

Yes it is but do you know what appears to be easier?
To accomplish frikk'n nothing and continue to act as if it's all hunky dory.

I am neither on a Council nor am I pretending to fill the role of a moderator.