Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

You may or may not know that the "Maemo Community" have a "Council" that has as its tag line:

"The Maemo Community Council is a five-person body chosen by the Maemo community. The Council's mission is to "represent the Maemo community's best interests to Nokia, and to act as a community conduit for Nokia-generated information."

Link: http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council

I've been pretty open about how ineffective and impotent I find this structure to be (horrible project management, even worse communication, ineffective in most (all?) issues it takes on, questionable how issues are being prioritized and how they 'get resolved', etc).

The current state of the forum (mis-managed moderation, poor communication in it about what is actually being worked on between Council and Nokia (if anything), etc) have at least for me re-ignited this question: Who would miss the Council if they were gone?

Now, I don't want this to be a discussion about how I feel about this but rather I am simply curious if I am the only one here who feels this way. And IF I am, I can promise you I will never air these feelings again...

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

which council??

what have they done so far?

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Now before we go into an open state of rebellion here, I think there are some things we need to know.

I for one, am curious about the Council's plan to deal with the end of Maemo and the transition to Meego.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

If they Exist.....the answer's a HELL NOO.

And If they don exist.....Beep Nokia.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but with nokia, there's no right or wrong, only idiot marketing. To think that I thought the HTC EVO would give nokia a kick in the head, but their head's apparently to thick and hollow to feel the pain.

The n900 remains the best device they have and still they show absolutely no support for it what so ever; And the n8 pales in comparison to the current phones of today.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

seriously, if you didnt tell me, i wouldnt know there was a council in the first place.
now that there is one, its either the council, that never contacted nokia, or nokia that completely ignored the council.

as far as i'm concerned: i couldnt care less. i dont believe that nokia cares about anything else than making every maemo-user buy the first meego-device for 600 euros before it drops to 400 euros 1 month after release. i hope the community takes care about the n900 like nokia should and make me keep my n900, because i planned on using this device for a long time.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Council here is like British Queen in Canada. She exists but no one listens to her and she doesn't have power . The simple fact that Nokia ignored their open letter to support Python as a programming language is a vivid example

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Right.

We're to blame for Nokia's inaction.

I'm astounded at the comments of some (not silvermountain's-- I've come to expect his baseless, pointless bashing).

You folks can slam us all you like for failures. It's just rather inane at this point.

The current five ran knowing well we were entering into a likely lame duck situation. None of us were naive. We saw the Maemo sunset like anyone else. We just wanted to do our damndest, to at least TRY-- rather than simply squatting at a keyboard typing out epithets, gripes and invalid assessments of anyone's efforts.

You can slam us for failure. Go ahead. But the evidence of council action are right here, right under the Community banner. Right in the emails and blogs and websites devoted to this community.

Absence of success is not absence of effort. It just indicates that we've been pushing rope. But that's not by design-- it's a consequence. Of corporate inertia.

I expect people to understand the difference. Asking too much?

It's easy to slam the volunteers at this point. We answer. Nokia doesn't.

So sure, lash out, Rant away. Whatever makes you feel better, silvermountain and company.

EDIT: I apologize for the emotional tone of this post. I should have let the thread sit overnight before responding. I also apologize to the other 4 council members for purporting to speak for them with regards to the last election. I also want to make it clear that the "lame duck" phrase was used in expediency and referred to the possibility of that occurring due to the introduction of MeeGo. It in no way reflects the hope I had when I ran, ie, that we could mitigate or even prevent such an occurrence.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

........ really, people?

........ I should just leave this thread alone.

:rolleyes:

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

I have a deep personal respect for you, Texrat. I also respect the Council and what they have accomplished. I think most of us understand that really its Nokia that is to fault for practically everything. I'm quite sure that the talented group of individuals in this community could have accomplished lightyears more beyond the great things we've already seen if Nokia had been more open and really let developers and end users have at the guts of Maemo and all the closed source packages.

That said, I have to admit that there is a marked difference between the potential that existed and many people recognized, and the way things actually progressed and the experiences many of us have had.

Off Topic:
On a personal note, I really really really blame Symbian for all of the woes of Maemo and its community. If that ****ing piece of useless **** and its *******ness ... (insert reams of expletives for dramatic and vulgar emphasis) ... had been killed in 2008 (at the latest!!!), we and Nokia would be sitting in a MUCH different position.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Just relax. Seems like scapegoating from where I am standing. Nokia have stonewalled us. And its much more fun to play with passionate people.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

So "playing with" a handful of us who may actually be more frustrated than the average poster here is fun?

I have to seriously wonder about the mentality of anyone acting with that motive.

But yeah, I'll just relax. I have much, much better things to do than spend time addressing this idea of "fun".

Thanks for your compliment, and I actually agree with the sentiment you and others have expressed. Does any one attacking the council (or the concept) think any of us are happy with outcomes this year? Seriously?

Come on folks. Think.

This post, and I'm shutting up:

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...417#post782417

You're welcome.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Ok, won't ignore it completely.

Texrat.. this is my one comment:

Look, there you are *sticks out an e-finger and pokes you*, see? I see you, you see me.. you TALK to me..

It's MUCH easier to criticize you.. than that ghost over there in the corner. See him there? No? me neither.. he never talks to me. I sit for hours talking to the corner and get nothing..

But you.. you talk back. Then you get all red faced.. it's soo cute!!! I think I'll focus on you.

(please see the unnecessarily extreme amounts of sarcasm in this post...)

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

I for one is happy that I can provide a degree of consistency in this time of turmoil.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Consistency here, for sure. But not in general... darkbulb.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

You're a fantastic moderator and your sense of judgement is impeccable.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Not to mention insight. My moderator access is more limited than you assume.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

I forgot insightful. Overall, great job.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

I dont blame Council members and what I wrote is of course Nokia's fault. I appreciate everything you guys are trying to accomplish. Sadly its Nokia who fails to listen and makes you weaker...

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

I'm pretty much done indulging the bickering and bashing tonight, but I have some serious questions, and not just rhetorical:

What do you want?

Does anyone want the current council to disband? Do you want more visibility of process? An accounting of effort? A token victory?

I'm completely serious. If I/we are going to be attacked despite making every possible effort in every way I/we can to support this community, then I want to understand that attack better.

What do you want?

Is there even any sort of consensus? Or should I/we simply ignore those complaints of known malcontents, and focus solely on the remaining few with constructive criticism?

What?

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

I am not on this council bandwagon deal but I do have a suggestion.

What if you made more of your "fights" public to the community? This would show "hey look we really do things here".

Again I am not bashing, nor do I want to cause problems just a suggestion is all.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

[pointing at three of you] You, you and you! Step forward! You three are a disgrace to salt water! Ten days half rations.

During the recent heavy weather, I've had the opportunity to watch all of you at work on deck and aloft. You don't know wood from canvas! And it seems you don't want to learn! Well, I'll have to give you a lesson.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

To 'back up' some of my baseless, pointless bashing:

a) A periodical (monthly?) announcement/post of what issues are on the table at this time - AND what progress has been done on issues that were on the table from the last post,

b) A periodical (every six months?) bottom-up issue vote on what the Council should address,

c) Dates and people's names assigned to the issues. No more of the 'Will work on'-status updates,

d) A more active Council blog where it is actually mentioned HOW work is being carried out,

e) The Council to work to get Nokia representatives active on the forum. Maybe not as active as many members here but maybe arrange some "Ask Nokia" forum threads where questions can be asked and they answer them,

f) A static list showing ALL issues/tasks that are currently being worked on, that has been closed out and that are in the pipeline.
All these tasks should have a start-date, resolution date and owner associated with them,

g) Council members to be 'champions' of a set of tasks/issues and go out into the community and show what tasks they own (link it back to the big task list) - and where appropriate ASK community members for help/input, etc to get tasks resolved and/or suggestions for how to escalate it to the ears of Nokia. No one expects 5 people to know how to do everything. Ask.

h) Show failures. If you are not getting to Nokia and getting their attention to look at issue/task 14,17 and 19 say so in the community and table it on the big issue/task list with "Unresolved due to Nokia inactivity" with a date on when communication was last attempted.

i) When you have the "Ask Nokia"-days as mentioned in "e" these tasks should be the first ones to go to them.

j) Set goals/reasons for existence for the Council and if you continue to fail to reach them you need to re-assess how the Council is structured/staffed.

I know some of the above is already attempted but the communication surrounding the attempts have been horrendous and if there is one thing that needs to improve it's that.

I should also have added that "MAKE THINGS EASY TO READ AND FIND". There are so many little lists spread across the site, poorly updated and if they are it's some uber technical phrase that 4% of the community would understand.
In addition to writing "The jimmimagicky is now backended into the fimmickydicky and we are able to issue buggadodoogy" - ALSO write in one column "We're now able to bring up a GUI".


My $0.02

Also, the fact that so far the majority of people (granted, hardly a statistical population at this point) either didn't know that there was a Council or feel that they could do without it should also say something.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Thanks for your question. There are certainly pros and cons to what you propose. I can't help but be keenly aware of the cons, though.

Plenty of fighting/complaining/venting occurs here, publicly, already. Council members even participate. Hell, me, too much. ;)

At some point we need to decide what battles make sense in broad daylight, and which ones to fight in the dark sewers. Public noise is good for initial attention-getting-- but often the solutions must be found in quieter zones. Too much harsh light of scrutiny, and your combatant might well retreat. We have to stay cognizant of that. Nokia sure is.

That said, my personal preference is do do everything out in the open. I have just found that sometimes process breaks down when all of it is public. So we have a council channel where we will discuss issues, inform each other, try to come to consensus. We could not accomplish that in every case in completely public channels. Noise interferes.

Now, these are just my thoughts. I am hoping the rest of the council will chime in. I am also interested in your rebuttals.

Thanks again for focusing the dialog.

EDIT:

I want to add something in general.

This is the most council entreaty I've seen in some time. I can say with personal disappointment that there are numerous, numerous council-related posts, tweets and emails that have been met with little or no response from the community. Ironic, given this thread.

So tonight's engagement, while largely contentious, has also been good if I'm going to be strictly objective.

Thank you to all participants. I mean that.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

I have to say that I generally find silvermountain's suggestions top notch. I don't want to imply that i think the council has failed in any of this because I just haven't paid attention or know much about anything pertaining to the council. Then again, that in itself might say something.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

I say we mutiny and take the ship! Nokia needs a new captain!

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Mutiny on the Bounty, 1935.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

There can't be a more appropriate movie for the whole Nokia corporate attitudes toward employees, community and customers.

Bligh: But you're taking my ship. My ship.
Christian: Your ship? The King's ship, you mean. And you're not fit to command it. Into the boat!
Bligh: Casting me adrift thirty five hundred miles from a port of call. You're sending me to my doom, eh? Well, you're wrong, Christian! I'll take this boat, as she floats, to England if I must. I'll live to see you - all of ya - hanging from the highest yard arm in the British fleet!

Just substitute ship with code, King's with community's and England with USA and finally British for Finnish. ;)

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Ok...I am apologizing to textrat for my previous rant in this thread.

I was caught in a moment and didn't think things through, you are actually a nice person, and I've read some of your blogs regarding issues with the community and nokia.

However what are the names of other 4 community council members? I ask because it's good to have an idea of who they are..... provided that they are registered in this forum.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

I'll genuinely give you the effort Texrat I've seen you put in here and at Meego forums. I also can see the Python support thing that the Council brought up recently as a good thing.

But I always have wanted to see visible posts by the council bringing up other issues, didn't matter if Nokia screwed us or played ignorant as usual. Put it up on the forums as it is, for I want to know where to place my anger(I'm kidding I know its Nokia :D). Doing anything behind closed doors is kinda pointless when the Council is supposedly so for the people.

The MyNokia debacle, the Council's stand and Nokia's handling of the whole issue however makes me realize one thing.

At the end of the day, the Council is for the most part not capable of delivering the mission statement it has on the wiki page.

Because, Nokia does not use the Council as a conduit for passing relevant information and they seemingly ignore for the most part whatever the Council (claims) to inform them of.

To me, a simple end user. You are 5 respected people(once in a while to the point of looking like Nokia fanboys or apologists :p) who genuinely have a passion for the platform and the better interests of the general community in mind.

But, the Council.. I really honestly don't care about, though simply because I haven't seen "Nokia" care for it or its opinions & you all would still be doing the same thing as 5 individuals and getting similar results.. a few good things in between the whole horse crap that Nokia's commitment to either the Maemo 5 or the N900 or its current users is.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Thank you for your input, and I won't go into the quibbles.

But I do want to touch on something Jaffa said in another thread:

Did anyone complain when previous councils worked to get community members sponsored to previous summits?

Did anyone complain when council members worked to get devices into the hands of developers?

Do you think the people I picked to go to Santa Clara (at Nokia's request) a while back complained? Should the community have complained?

Forget those who were miffed over their own lack of selection-- do you get where I'm going with this?

Those were success stories, guys. And I can find several for every single allegation of council ineffectiveness, incompetence, etc.

SOMEone has to step up and assume leadership. It makes sense to have an at-large elected body facilitating these things rather than corporate-selected people. Right? Especially since Nokia will have the wrong bias.

And actually Nokia HAS communicated through us (and in general)-- problem is the messages were not well-received. And I understand completely. I'm not pleased with many decisions and have stated so many times.

But some here continue to confuse undesired or failed results with inactivity by the council. Sorry, but that's just nuts. It's not even ineffectivity or incompetence. It's just the unsurprising pain that comes with trying to push the Titannic away from the iceberg. The captain is stubbornly fixed on his course. And no, contrary to one allegation we are not so fixed. We are naturally open to community input.

It's just a damned shame more of that input is occurring tonight than has in the entire year up to now. And no, that is not entirely the fault of the council. The community has ongoing obligations, too. "Fire and forget" should not be a mode of voting.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

let's start a thread "would anybody miss silvermountain and his pointless rant?"

tmo, sigh!

/j

ps: for you tmo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usm9SpnHYJQ I know who brought the quicksand, and who's the small animal at the very end. The rest of you feel free to identify with the giraffe

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Ack. Let's not. I'm against threads created to attack ANY community member. Don't make me moderate tonight! :p

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Not knowing which are your comments and what are Jaffa's I'll just assume they are all yours.

a) No, why would anyone complain about that? Is it just made into a question to be argumentative? ( :) ) I've actually thought the Summits seemed nice for the people that have the skills to appreciate them and/or being productive there.

I guess it was just poorly communicated what the Council's efforts were in that and that it wasn't just Nokia looking for free testers.


I don't know. What was the outcome/deliverables of that? If you could point me to the Council write-up of what was accomplished I'll just read that.

So by that you are saying that the Council in its current state and recent accomplishments is effective and competent?

Lack of communication, inability to show a structured, readable lists of tasks with owners and due dates, inability to being able to convey to the community what is being worked on and how, lacking status updates on open issues/tasks, poor transparency into how issues are being selected and resolved, poor results in getting Nokia's attention to issues brought to their tables (an issue you brought up yourself), having a very low recognition w/in the Community about what the "Council" is and what it is doing, etc - is to me not very confusing when I choose to use words such as "Inefficient" and "Incompetent".

I also believe that writing "And no, that is not entirely the fault of the council" - instead of "And yes, that is in part the fault of the council" is a subtle yet telling difference in how defensive one is.

And since you wrote "SOMEone has to step up and assume leadership" - with that comes the role of managing expectations from the community, gathering and prioritizing issues/tasks, being active in communicating status on said issues and, maybe most importantly in this type of community, have a full transparency on who is driving what, what is happening and how work is being done.

Is the "Council" ready to do that or is it just a vehicle to send people to summits and get people devices early?

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

I wouldn't. He is such a whining, unconstructive git. I say we ban him.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

silvermountain, you're right back to choosing confrontation over constructive dialog. Let me know if/when you throttle back from attack mode and actually want to discuss the subject honestly, seriously and without malice. I will gladly do the same.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

I see your point and it's a hard situation to be in. As you make more things public overall control is lost.

However the same is true about keeping things behind closed doors you cut off outside communication to the community.

Something which comes to mind to help this issue would be to expand the current concil members from 5 to maybe 8 or 10. I honestly don't know much details about the concil however it sounds to me that the current concil members are either overworked or not getting results. I am not blaming just stating from what I have heard here.

This is a hard thing to deal with in any situation however it's very common among IT industry such as Service Desks and also Operational Control positions. Anyone who has done ITIL will know what I mean by those terms.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Actually they were not meant to be overly confrontational.
Your post just came across as very, very defensive (and understandable so) for the Council and what it has done. I was simply questioning some of the content in it.

It's not that I am saying that the Council has never done anything good - all I'm saying is that today I see it as being stagnant, inefficient, non-communicating and expressing very poor, basic project management skills. The examples you brought up are some of the good ones (Summit invites and early devices to developers) but the way you phrase it in that you can find several ones for every counterpoint you get is simply not true anymore (OR there are...and they were never communicated...).

No malice intended. Re-read my post with a mickey mouse voice in your head if that helps.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

I grant your point about closed doors. Somehow balance needs to be found. I'm not sure we achieved it. But again, more input would have been nice.

Anyway, at this point I am struggling to think beyond this term.

There is no clear sign that a council will happen for MeeGo. There is no clear sign one will be needed/wanted for Maemo going forward. So much is in the air right now. Also, I had already stated I would not serve more than two terms in a row. That was to make room for others, and give myself a break-- the latter more a motivation than it was months ago, largely based on the undeserved nastiness we've seen here tonight and recently.

I still believe in the concept. What I would really like to see is every single complainer run for the next maemo.org term. I will even vote for the loudest one(s). I challenge people like silvermountain to get up, quit complaining, and put their heartfelt ideals to work. Find a purpose for this place, this collection of people. Don't just rant about "council incompetence"-- SHOW the community what you would do better. PROVE it.

I have a hard time respecting the opinions of those who attack the community and/or council and yet refuse to step up and take some of the heat we have.

Re: Would you miss the Council if it was gone?
 

Hmm welp there goes my idea about adding members to the council hehe.

Welp I am going to keep reading but unless I have another idea which makes sence I am lurking it.

At this point all I can do is hope for the best :D