Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

This is really beginning to bug me now.

Punctuation marks are not followed by a punctuation mark!

Notice the lack of a full stop/period there? Well that's because it is not necessary as the exclamation point indicated the end of a sentence.

If you've been a hardware engineer for over 25 years, that would lead me to believe that you are at least 41 years old.
It really surprises me that a middle aged (sorry if this is wrong, it is an estimation) man, who clearly speaks English fairly well does not know/adhere to common punctuation practices. Something even non-native English speakers seem to comprehend.

This is not an attack, merely an observation and statement of the fact.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

Read my previous post ! the FULL OS including drivers open sourced and readable,

I think you need to explain just where the drivers are because they are closed source and the only way for them not to be within the updates is for them to be already installed on the mb somewhere and that is not going to be the case on the N900.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

Fair enough, it's Ramadan - I'm fasting and not at my best.
But I started reading this thread, by the end of it I don't know what it's about - or frankly care.
Can't we just terminate it and end the pointless CO2 emissions?

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

You know what? I completly understand that. And I think it's messed up that Nokia continues to mess up over and over. But for people to take their anger, annoyance, whatever at Nokia out on the community just destroys whatever chance they have left for their device to get any support. Kinda like Stskeeps' point below.

Anyway I hope that Nokia at bare minimum will ensure that we have some compatibility with QT (even if we don't have multi-touch or whatever). Not all apps need multi-touch.

I'm personally amazed that anyone even continues to come here anymore with the decline of the forums. There are better ways of communication out there that doesn't involve a poor signal to noise ratio.

Probably because he thinks everything will be solved the moment things are open sourced. Which isn't the case. Heck I think hildon-desktop is open source now, why doesn't everyone complaining about how hildon-desktop wasn't open source fix it (if it is open source now?).Though I'm one of those people who believe in open sourcing everything (mainly for transparency).

And personally an abandoned project with open source code is better than an abandoned project with no open-source code (abandoned as in Nokia in the future has no future plans for support). At least you have a starting point (whether it be learning how it works yourself, hiring a developer to do it for you, etc..)

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

What don't you understand about what I've said? Obviously the drivers are on the device. Otherwise the device wouldn't work. Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Which drivers do you need openned for your USB OTG hack?

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

And do you want to know what I want? Yes! people want things and companies and stock holders want things? Surprised?

Dear...Of course everyone here would like to see everything opened. Why should we even talk about it? Waste of time IMO. Do you think that someone disagrees with that? There is one thread about licensing maemo stuff and you can go there and have conversation and vote licensing requests on bugzilla. Then again if you read it you can see that even qgil is on meego-meego-meego "drive mode".

So weird that you seem to be quite illiterate when we are speaking about stuff happening around maemo considering how much you spend your time here do you have just trouble understanding what people write here? I do not know how to say this and this can not be said in nice way but do you have some sort of dyslexia? I´m not sarcastic or anything else here. I´m just little worried.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

Here we go again with the abuse, i am outa here ! just wasting my time.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

You're not helping yourself or this thread by being over sensitive and ignoring my questions. I'm trying to help you. I've asked you the same question about 5 times now, you're obviously not actually interested ... So it seems you've actually been wasting all of our time ... Again ...

/me sighs

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

I look forward to humble pie when PR 1.3 is the last one. It took ages for 1.2 and 1.3 is due on that time scale to be well after Meego is live. The support department for Nokia are not doing anything for the N900, what is there that the community hasn't already struggled with a workaround for. And Nokia seem content to keep half written and Beta software working than fix it. I use OVI store as the prime example.

I do still find the comments funny that think Nokia support Maemo NOW, never mind stopping it in the future. They certainly DON'T support the N900 if OVI (suite, store, maps) is anything to be measured against. Ask yourself why USB connection prompts 'PC suite' and 'mass storage' when OVI suite is the next generation of connection software. And 8 months later, OVI suite still doesn't support this phone 100%?

Returning to the OP. I think you need to change the website's name for a start. It isn't Maemo.org for much longer and you can't support the N900 if most of you shift to Meego. Any future sap buying into the hype and going Meego on future devices will be confused to find a forum of abuse against Nokia for lack of support in a dead (officially) OS. I doubt I will be around then, I will have moved onto a working phone long before a 'make believe' PR 1.4 turns up.

I will of course eat humble pie and stand shocked if a 1.4 does in deed roll out. But I think those who are not obsessed with the N900 can see the writing on the wall. 8 months for me and still way too many bugs to fix shows Nokia's involvement with both community AND their product.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

No one has said anything about a PR1.4.

I stated that we can probably expect at least one more update PR1.3, after that is anyones' guess.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

twigleaf1976 I agree with you on the name of this community because if it is the case Maemo is ceased then people will just move on to a Meego forum and forget this place ever exsisted WOW what a thought !!!.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

Some people on here dont even know how let alone where the drivers come from for the N900 ! let alone encrypted bineries used by Nokia for that specific purpose making sure closed drivers stay closed !.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

They are _NOT_ encrypted. Why can't you just listen to what people tell you that _DO_ understand the platform. Because you're obviously completely oblivious yourself.

I'm sure you'll see this post as an attack, that's because you're obviously a complete *****.

I've asked you a question 5 times, no answer.
I've told you that the closed components aren't encrypted about 3 times, (probably 4 now).

I don't mind saying this, but it's quite clear that I know more about this than you. So listen and pay attention.

You started this thread because you wanted to ask something of the community. You wanted to know what "we" were willing to do to keep the N900 alive for the foreseeable future. You've not once attempted to clarify what you think that actually entails.

You want to see the entire platform open? Do you think that will make us continue to maintain the N900 with Maemo?

No, because we're all moving to MeeGo when it becomes stable.

I've tried to be civil, I've tried to help you in this request. You've just been intentionally argumentative and extremely dense.

Those were personal attacks and if I get banned from t.m.o so be it. I'm sick of your stupidity and I will probably get on fine conversing in IRC anyway.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

You do NOT ask for everyone on this community. I don't think you are a spokesman for the community. You certainly aren't a spokesman for me. You are the most divisive "rah rah" community poster I have ever seen. The most offensive posts in this thread are from you, such as the "little boy" reference to a fellow member of the community.

And by the way, do some reading on the distinction between "effect" and "affect".

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

So, I think it's about time for me to really weigh in why it is I'm pushing MeeGo on N900 and why this is the right direction. This is probably going to be a bit long.

This is also probably my last long post on the matter as I'm now fully in a MeeGo role, no longer maemo.org distmaster.

The fact is that the model of 770 -> N800 -> N810 -> N900 has been that of one device per OS version. There hasn't been resources for keeping a full product team for multiple devices at a time.

This has caused what some describe as Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome, where the device OS rapidly goes into maintenance mode after device release while mostly everyone involved moves on to the next product/device. This obviously leaves users unhappy.

Now, there are multiple suggestions around here:

* Fremantle community SSU
* Petition for open sourcing most of Fremantle to keep it maintained
* Harmattan HE for N900
(etc)

And my main point in the following is that those directions will be like pissing your pants to keep yourself warm. Quick review:

Community SSU can work on the open source parts (it has happened on N8x0 just fine). Maybe you can find some ability together with Fremantle aficionados inside Nokia who could be interested in contributing with upgrades of some binary packages -
I doubt there's any problem if those exist to slip some packages out.

But the main point is: no upstream work will really happen. I highly doubt you can find enough people that are still around to keep things working. Even with documentation, the code can be quite hairy to add new features to. So that bends down to a resourcing problem.

Open sourcing most of Fremantle - I simply don't think it's going to happen. Too much work for too little benefit. And the same problems as with normal SSU when the code does arrive.

Harmattan HE. This would already be obsolete by the time we were done as a more modern platform would be available in MeeGo. As well as at some point, no more upstream development.

The main point - you'll piss your pants with these projects to keep yourself warm for a while, but you'll just keep on feeding the Rapid Obsolescence Syndrome to some extent - that you'll never be able to play catch-up to new technologies and satisfy the requirements of your users. It is a physical impossibility as there's many more man-hours poured into MeeGo than you can provide here.

MeeGo and Qt has changed the status quo that existed that:
* Any Linux-based OS platform from Nokia is tied to a certain device
* Any applications from Nokia is tied to a certain device by fact that they were released for a certain OS platform.

It's a game-changer because now, for any given 'Nokia' OS for these devices, this will after Harmattan be based off MeeGo (platform from MeeGo.com).

Now, what are we actually doing in MeeGo for N900?

First off - we're making the hardware adaptation for N900 maintainable.

This means that we are actively upstreaming N900 drivers to the mainline Linux kernel as well as getting those few blobs we have into the MeeGo non-oss repositories with redistributable license. This is actively happening.

Second, we're running QA daily to make sure that N900 still works with the current MeeGo platform state. This means we're always at the front of the platform development. MeeGo platform doesn't move forward if a change breaks N900 - it is a reference device.

That's not pissing your pants to keep warm. That's making a bonfire and collecting wood to make us sustainably warm. And that's one of the reasons why I hope for more people to contribute to the MeeGo effort.

Now for the users. Look forward a bit - Nokia's obviously going to make a OS release based on 'real' MeeGo.com. The same code that'll power future handsets will be based on the same code that N900 already now supports. It's the same infrastructure that builds images and software that MeeGo for N900 is made using, as any given future Nokia OS. Instead of Nokia having applications tied to Fremantle or to Diablo or whatever, they now tie to MeeGo - the same platform you have on your N900.

If you want to make a real bonfire and eat your cake too, you will want to do the following:

* Contribute to MeeGo and MeeGo on N900 in the short term - this will improve matters for Nokia N900 obviously.
* Petition for Nokia early on, to consider providing the following things:
** Executive summary: access to the binaries making up the Nokia differentiation
** Weekly (or other interval) repository releases (binaries) available to Nokia N900 users of their future MeeGo.com-based OS under the usual 'this is not for end-users, bla bla'. Kinda like the old 'Sardine'
** Kickstart files for these weekly releases so you can edit them into your own images for the N900 using the Nokia bits.
** Community can be possibly be more involved in the QA process this way and contribute in general.
** If branding is a problem, have community themes and icons.
** Suggest new ways to have both a 'closed' vendor OS with all the goodies based on MeeGo.com while at same time having your power user community close to you.

Now, this is a way that can keep you ahead of the curve regarding your device. The N900 hardware isn't going obsolete for many years and is still very capable.

I think this might be possible to pull off, but it requires people to start gaining skills within MeeGo - and help contribute to MeeGo on N900. It's a similar approach to Harmattan HE, but more involved and more future proof. So I wouldn't say it's impossible.

So - it's your choice: Live in the future instead of the past.

I'll be working to make the future happen - see you on http://www.meego.com (and http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900 )

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

It took ages compared to what? 1.3 due? No-one knows, or actually only Nokia internals know what is schedule for that.

Please Watson tell us more about this! (krhm. we have had these conversation about n+1 times here and probably everyone agrees)

Find funny? If you look bugzilla you see that they are fixing still maemo stuff and if you look opensourced stuff you see that they are providing fixes there (how to compile some of that stuff to maemo is totally community depended). Trying to say that support means different things to different people. To some support might mean that Company x makes drivers fully open source and STOPS developing. Giving drivers away as open source could be seen as lifetime support to community. So again everything depends on point of view.

True. Then what?

Sucks big time. And your point is that because N900 doesn't support ovi fully it means that there is no anymore support?

As I said before to abill this community does what ever it does. Why should you me or him be so interested on about future of community? Life happens and then you die.

Why would anyone be interested about my, you or persons x intension around here? Why would someone here care that you are going to somewhere else?

There will be bugs to infinity. No-one has said anything about PR 1.4. Only thing what we have is meego N900 adaption which is worked by team that Nokia helps and for example nitdroid and who knows what else. Everything else is up to you.

Why so many posters here think that I, we, community whatever should care about their intentions? Why people are so passionate about what they are going to do that they have to yell it on streets? Come to Finland, Do that friday night in snack que and get beaten. Fo sake of it DO do not speak because no one really cares. Money talks and etc.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

@slender, I think the problem is, before the mass attack of users/abill_uk, this community didn't have people talking about it in 3rd person, not really. We got on with the projects we were interested in, talked about technical issues we were having and shared our code.

With all these arrogant, demanding and ignorant people pretending to be knowledgeable and attempting to "fit-in" they're proving to be completely incompatible.

The community that Maemo.org represents has mainly and will for some time be lone developers working on hobby projects and sharing their work. I just wish all the "basic" users would just sit back and watch rather than try to get involved in things they don't understand :)

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

@Stskeeps,

Now that argumentation might actually make me change my mind about NOT switching to Meego. Thanks for that well written clarification!

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

This has nothing to do with the actual thread, but for the love of God. It's not "i" it's "I".

I (note the capital) would give your posts a much more in depth read if I could just get over the fact that grammar seems like a foreign concept to you.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

AT LAST something to read that makes sense and with that stskeeps i will wait for Meego and then trouble you with the mods !.

Your a saint and a blessing to this community !.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

Does that mean I should close this thread?

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

Why oh why did you not post this after the opening post of this thread !!! or was it your intention to find out the passion of people and their N900's !!!.

If i did not know better i would kick your .... but hell your a blessing in disguise and a huge BIG thankyou !!!!!!.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

Maybe it'll take on a different, constructive character after my post.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

I think maybe just maybe stskeeps is right texrat so maybe leave it open?.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

We have known this for a while!
However, right now and for a foreseeable period, Meego on N900 will not be viable as your day to day device (unless you have some firm concrete dates to give us)

This was something in Mer you aimed for - to get it usable by the general user for everything they currently do.

My suggestion to add debian packages onto the Meego applications currently in gitorious would allow owners of the N900 to test and improve the applications whilst giving you guys the breathing space to make a knockout supreme stack!

btw, this community has been mostly busy outside of some of these threads (you guys should really look around more!) - we have more apps and activities than ever before.
The community coding competition was awesome and showed some amazing applications

http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_Coding_Competition_1


Just recently, live background work has been ongoing and includes XScreensaver support, so those of you that like draining battery can do so in a much more pretty refined manner!

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...001#post787001

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

I dont mind if it is Meego or Maemo that gets support but when i see this happen then for sure once tested properly i will put all the mods up for everyone to do not untill !.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

I'd prefer hardware mod free host mode to be honest. Cutting on the device is completely unnecessary, not that I expect you to listen ..

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

This made my day

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

Hey Stskeeps, this sounds real good!

However, as much as I'd like to help, I'm "just" an application developer. And I have "only" one N900, which means I wouldn't flash a non-functional OS on it, as I use it daily as my phone and multimedia device.

The question is: how can a person like me contribute to your project?

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

well if he really did what he did, I for sure would admit I'm a noob and non-engineer. Would you guys really understand if he posted how to do the hardware mods? I don't really see what the issue is with discussing future collaboration. Why do some people insist on wanting to see what he's done before being willing to discuss what we as a community can do?

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

"MeeGo platform doesn't move forward if a change breaks N900 - it is a reference device."

This makes me all warm and fuzzy inside ;)

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

For once probably in a lifetime the way you are ! i actually agree with you and the problem i need to get over is getting a supply to the device not using the usb port and unless someone can give me direction there i am afraid to say the extra pin or charge socket is needed as otg will drain the battery in just an hour or so.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

Even the HD2 which I sold to get the n900 has USB host.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

We are providing non-destructive load-your-kernel-not-flash and dd-image-to-microSD installs for a reason :)

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

For devices that need more substantial power, an external powered hub will work.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

god damn so much drama

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

Host is one thing but even that will drain battery and otg simply does not work because the tranciever is not wired up to monitor for signal from the usb port so how the hell they will get host to work without the wiring mod i have no idea.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

abill, like I've told you so many times. It already works, the reason host mode was chosen over otg is specifically because it does not require any wiring changes. It will not drain the battery when a usb hub is being used, and should even be possible to simultaneously charge at the same time. All host mode needs is a little kernel tinkering to get it to work reliably and easily.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

We tried that and got the hot wire situation and the reason i installed a charge socket.
It is only a small hole and if drilled properly looks like it was there from manufacturer.

Re: what is this community prepared to do for us regarding the N900?
 

Okay, but how can an application developer contribute to OS development?