Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

I'd take an N95 over an iPhone 4 any day

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

I think that says more about you than the iphone 4.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

Watch and weep at the tasters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke3vfhfv35w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oi6E...layer_embedded

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

Slippery slope. Too much differentiation and you have fragmentation.

And this doesn't limit choice?

Then what's different about SenseUI, TouchWiz, et al on Android than a different UI on top of MeeGo? I don't mind admitting that I might not be digging deep enough - I'm not looking at API level as a programmer, I'm talking about the UI as an user at the moment.

But with that said, the whole idea of openness is a moot point when ultimately the support from vendors, software houses, and hardware manufacturers isn't there. The best ideas are rarely supported.

Mediocre ones - like Microsoft Windows for instance - take the lion share of support. Why? Solve that one and you'll be a hero in my book.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

Inertia. Windows is a special case in that it's not at the top due to its virtues, but because of network effects and Microsoft's vices.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

I wonder if there will be a setting to make those transitions a bit shorter. They probably start to get annoying in day-to-day use.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

I can see inertia... now. But let's go back to the DOS days. DR-DOS, PC-DOS and MS-DOS... IBM had the edge. Windows 2.0 - sucked whereas IBM OS/2 didn't. Microsoft stole their inertia via piracy, imho. They were so pirated, it became widespread.

I think that's a total different discussion.

But I can see your point and how it applies. But inertia can also be a negative or in a negative direction. And unfortunately, in North America, the inertia is a negative for Nokia due to lack of presence. That lack of presence with folks that don't want to take the time to educate themselves (read: the average consumer) will ultimately mean that they will have to work harder in this area or do like they did in Japan... just give up.

That would be the lack of inertia - I hope you don't mind my segue from your original statement by using your word.

To go backwards, Nokia's perception in the US is a mixed bag; more negative than positive as of late.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

So... what sells... in normal circumstances?

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

Well, hopefully, a diverse variety of compatible alternatives. You know, things driven by competition but on a fundamental level all compatible.

Sort of like how all OSes support OpenGL, and all graphics cards work via the same APIs, browsers are all different and offer features but work with HTML, Javascript, CSS.

MS has been dominant for so long we seem to forget what competition and diversity look like, and forget that it requires cooperation between entities to make sure that it doesn't go to crap.

But then everyone looks at MS and Apple's lock-in and think "That's what I want. Legions of customers who can't escape me!" with the end result being that end-users get screwed in the long term and progress slows to a crawl in favor of profits.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

It ensures that application developers have a stable set of APIs that they can rely on across devices and manufacturers. But manufacturer can add whatever they want on top of that, as seen in the WeTab MeeGo tablet being able to run also Android applications.

Not much. But based on what I've read of Android 3.0, it seems Google is seeking to limit that type of customization

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

All those standardization layers you quoted as example came after the platform. And they all exist on MS and Apple platforms.

They, by themselves, don't 'sell'.

'Openness' and technical superiority by themselves don't 'sell'.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

You state that as if any of the aforementioned UI options on top of Android are breaking API's. To my knowledge, none are.

Sounds like they're becoming more MeeGo-like in that endeavor.

I guess what I'm gathering from your statements is that MeeGo has a API framework that explains what UI calls and changes that each and every UI on top of the MeeGo framework will have to follow. As it stands, in very loose terms; that's the exact same thing that's in place for Android.

So with that said, why was it brought up like one had an advantage over the other? I'm not seeing it. Both seem to have rigid frameworks whereas UI/UX is in question. And to me, that's a very good thing.

One isn't more limited than the other... which is also a very good thing (sticking with the UI/UX sections).

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

I'm not interested about Symbian phones really these days but Symbian is THE OS in mid and low end. Nokia packs lots of hw and features for 150 euros Symbian phones that's not really possible with Android yet because it's a resource hog.

If anything it's very possible that Symbian sells in 2 years time in same numbers as S40(it's not Symbian!) as in Nokia's plans Symbian takes S40 place. When people here say Symbian should just die i don't think people get that if that happens Nokia will essentially be next Motorola.
Old part of Symbian is AVKON that was made in late 90's for hw button based phones, but that changes as Qt takes it's place.
It will be the price and features that will sell S'4 also in future, but the great thing will be that it will be connected to the whole ecosystem that was not there with S40. The feel of the UI will change alot that i can tell already when the throw AVKON out even if they would want to keep some Symbian elements.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

I said NOTHING about openness or technical superiority. Don't stuff words in my mouth. My point was that in a market not suppressed by a behemoth like Microsoft then competitors in a market will look for means of differentiating themselves while still being compatible. Sort of like how Linux distros compete with each other for mindshare but are still compatible with each other.

We simply don't know what that looks like in computing because MS has skewed people's perceptions, to the point that they think diversity is bad.

By your logic we should give up on everything but Windows, Mac OS, Android, and iOS. And personally, I don't want to see what computing looks like when those are our only options.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

And don't stuff words in my mouth :cool:

Actually I'm all for technical superiority and open standards; but I've yet to see a workable implementation of them in a brand new platform that can penetrate the market single-handedly.

Android is possibly the closest one I've seen so far.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

They don't have a nearly as clear separation between the Core and the UX as MeeGo. An UX that uses the MeeGo API should basically need a recompile, push packages and that's about it, no several months worth of herculean rollout efforts like on Android (plus, the release schedule is known up front).

And of course the tiny detail that with MeeGo you are free to use all the libraries that were ever implemented for Linux, no NDI type hacks required.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

Thanks for the answer; however I'm not sure (beyond effort) that's really the disadvantage here.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

See, I agree, that is the thing many people don't realise. There is an ungodly number of S40 devices being sold every year, numbers that dwarf everyone else's devices. The more of those S40 devices get replaced by Symbian models in the low/mid-end, the greater the effective marketshare.

Oh and a reminder for people unfamiliar with it - Symbian was/is essentially the core OS that came from Psion's work.S60 is what Nokia actually marketed and built on top of it. UIQ is another example, one that primarily Motorola and Sony Ericsson used. They squandered it completely, I know many people loved the interface and the way it would be implemented on touchscreen phones.
Not an entirely accurate description but it is sort of the way Linux is in reality the kernel not all the stuff built on top of it with every distribution. The S60 "wrapper"/UI are a small piece, which is why it was possible to put in place the transition st S^3 et.c.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

If you guys are interested, here's my current opinion of Nokia's state of affairs.

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news...ive-house.aspx

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

More than that, it has brainwashed people into accepting bad software. Instead of complaining loudly and demanding their money back when their computer has crashed for the Nth time in a day because of crappy software, they are instead trained to restart/reboot/reinstall.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

Speaking of Angry Birds... why is there no mention of in-game purchases via Ovi for Maemo but it's there for Symbian^3?

Proof...

But to be fair, no mention of Apple's iOS either.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

Symbian doesn't have bling-bling, and is a capability-based OS with microkernel (which neither Android, iOS, or Maemo are). Imagine the complexity of such OS, and it does mean impact on resources (ie. microkernel generally 10% performance). It wasn't made with multimedia or touchscreen in mind, and it doesn't follow some new UI paradigms. It is actually well made for enterprise: sober, and build with security in mind.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

:D hahaha. Did you know MeeGo will probably have some form of capability-based security? Did you know Symbian is the only mobile OS sporting a microkernel? Did you know some OSes are moving away from a monolithic kernel design? And adopting capability-based security? And more general: Symbian was market leader and way ahead of anything for a long, long time, and has inspired many of the current mobile OSes. It also still has a strong market.

Yep, I'm certainly looking forward to the new Nokia E7. Would love to try it out.

I'd recommend Dan to try out a Nokia E72 some time. Try to get to use a demo model or something. It will give you a rough impression about Symbian. The Nokia E72 is the current E-Series flagship, successor ofthe very popular Nokia E71 (in my case, my Nokia N900 predecessor).

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

Outstanding article.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

It's not just Bloggers that don't understand Nokia or where its coming from.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/BUSINESS/09/...ack/index.html

I see most of this as lazy journalism with a lack of research in the subject, which appears to be rife, I guess at least a blogger piece is clearly an opinion piece.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

What exactly is the problem with that article?

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

Glad you liked it. :)

I really want Nokia to succeed but they've gotta get it right from the top down. That involves appealing to the American and Western European Markets again. :D

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

C'mon, man! The caption for picture 8 claims that the 5800, released in 2008, was Nokia's first touchscreen phone. The 7710 was a touchscreen phone and was released in what, 2005?

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

OMG that ruined CNN for me.

I shall rank them just below Fox News and right above Glenn Beck for this offense.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

Since when has any network been spot on with their technology coverage? never. That's why sites like engadget and gizmodo are so successful, they effectively fill the technology gap left by traditional media.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

His statements were overloaded with sarcasm.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

The only criticism I have about that piece is that the author implies that doing thumb and finger gymnastics on a touch screen is inherently better than doing thumb gymnastics on buttons/keyboards.

But in general a lot of "journalism" these days revolves around regurgitating clueless blogs.

More interesting is the linked article "Why Nokia can't crack the U.S. market". It quotes a Dan Hays who says I find that hard to believe since Nokia has always done customised phones for UK carriers, and a few for US carrier(s) even.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

What if I want to have better garbage collector with defragmentation and reorganization of allocated heap memory (for L2 cache) on the run time, and possibility to optimize code on the runtime based on running profile gathered during the run? I need Java or Dalvik for that.

Nokia somehow dislikes Java. It may be a problem in the future when mobile phones are getting more cores in their CPUs and more RAM memory (thats when on the run profiling and on the fly optimization comes possible)

Google did its home work when it chose "Java". The future with long (time) running applications which use lots of (or often) dynamic memory is with interpreted languages, not with fully compiled ones.

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

Ah, excellent. A new generic bashing topic allowing me to re-iterate my opinions ad nauseam. *does the Mr. Burns signature move*

Let me start by stating that I have never played angry birds, despite it being available for the N900. I'm going a bit for the unthinkable here, but I have no intention of commenting about the game. Why is that? Because I have no time whatsoever to play any games on my N900 :cool:.

Well then. Why did I bother to open my mouth at all? Great question. Let's see... First, I found the claims that google whipped up android in no time at all to be hilarious. It was surely a long and painful process. And as someone has pointed out, google actually bought android in the first place.

Moreover, the reason why Nokia can't do the same lies in the vastly different corporate culture. Google is famous for having the most casual work environment ever and paying absurd amounts of money for every researchers pet projects, whether any of them ever actually will turn any profit or not. (They have been making money out of surprisingly many, though).

Nokia, on the other hand, is completely stagnant. It took them years and years of slow iteration to get somewhere with maemo (talk about the five steps, huh). Nowadays, they subcontract elsewhere large parts of their application development, so there's no "Nokia spirit" holding everything together.

Also, recently it's been quite entertaining to follow the finnish tabloids writing about Nokia. Headlines include "Stock options killed Nokia creativity" (ex-corporate lawyer reveals all the juicy details) and "New CEO brought in behind OPK's back".

Also, a lot of Nokia workers I know have complained being on a very short leash. Whether they are just the whiny type or to be taken seriously... well, I think I'll pass the ball on this one.

Then, there's the Java question. Now, this is where things get interesting. Whether google got it right or not, will depend a whole lot on the outcome of the current Oracle vs. Google lawsuit. I suspect that Ironically, Oracle winning will kill whatever relevance Java has left. Or maybe they bought Sun thinking Java was dead already, and that there was a lot of money to be made in litigation. In any case, android's future is up to the court now. Unless they settle, of course.

Well, life's sure gonna be interesting. Maybe Elop will completely f**** up Nokia and maybe Android will die. I bet the execs at MS and The Fruit are already drooling :D

Re: Angry Birds and Nokia’s Perception Problem
 

The fact that this article is up on tech crunch (or one of its sub-sites) is a red flag. They generally just rant and shoot off random ideas with little basis in reality. Meego is more interesting than just being a "minority" project for hardcore geeks, or at least it could be. I'm genuinely excited about it, and I don't really have that much technical knowledge.
I think it looks and runs better than any linux distro I've seen, and it doesn't bite on other styles like iOS or Android. It is, and will be its own beast, and hopefully with cross platform rollout, users will appreciate a more unified experience when they go from their car to their phone, to whatever small tablet/netbook they are using, instead of the random "crippled android" service providers are going to shove out and/or the "boys in the bubbles" who live in Apple's very locked-down wonderland and never come out to play.
The only things they need to do are to greatly improve navigation and to drastically redo the Ovi Store.
I still can't wait to drop Meego into my N900.