Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I don't think you were being picked on intentionally, it just you are the only one left with the fortitude and guts to defend a tough position. Where all the other people on the "Okay side" went is anyone's guess. I don't agree with you on a lot of points concerning this subject, but I appreciate you putting forward your perspective.

Cheers.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Next time I'll try all caps and extra large font as well. I'm tired of beating the dead horse so I thought I'd highlight the main part of my assertion in case someone someone was too lazy to read the whole thing. (not referring to you in particular)

No. I'm not willing to pay more than $5 for a Lamborghini doesn't mean I should have it for $5. Your argument entirely relative on the individual. Besides Apple fanboys, who would gladly pay more for software without having to?

Irrelevant. Why because I see "poor" people waste money on snacks, lottery tickets and eating at fast food restaurants. Sure a product is a percentage of their income but they save to pay for entertainment just like the do for everything else. A DVD isn't a human right nor is it essential for living.

I don't know how a DVD is more expensive than the player. Are there $10 DVD players? If that does exist then maybe they're using the razor / razor blade model to be profitable.

I didn't demonize you, merely disagree with your points, just like you disagree with mine. I do try to make it personal. Most people view the argument differently if they were the person on the other side being stolen from.

I remember when you mentioned that a few pages back. I think it is important to separate the person from the argument. If I made it too personal I apologize, it was certainly not my intent. I will make no apologies for being on the other side of the argument however.

Yeah, I think the interesting arguments faded a few pages back. ;-)

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Do you guys think this would be similar to what may happen when material replicator (item copier) gets perfected?

Imagine if there is a machine that can copy any item, perfectly, with the minimal cost of just a gunk of junk/trash about the same volume as the item to be copied. Books, foods, jewelry, toys, gadgets, widgets... cars... they're all copied with the same simplicity and flat cost. Similar to data copying, right?

It takes away the complexity and costs associated to creating the original product.

Now... the masses who are the beneficiary of this replication technology may well be ignorant on how elaborate the original creation process may be and all the costs associated to it. To them a replicated diamond ring costs as much to create as, say a, spoon.

On the other hand, the creator can also benefit from this technology. In the old world, they may spend $1000 on a single item that can be sold for $1500. With the replicator, they can sell 10,000 copies at $1 each.

Then again, this technology actually already exists... we already have China as the world's replicator. (jk).

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

No. It isn't, Infringement of intellectual property is not defined as a "form of theft" according to the law of any country I know of. It is a form of theft just like slander is a form of rape. The only place copywriter infringement is defined as theft is in the propaganda material of entities such as RIAA, MPAA and such.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Indeed. In fact, back here it's not illegal to download a song and play it for yourself or your family (as defined). Only distributing is illegal. And, true, everything else is, such as publishing, making hard copies, selling, and it grows worse from there. Assuming copyright is among the worst.

Additionally, archiving entities, such as archives and libraries are allowed to copy the original as needed to keep it from being lost.

Playing in my own home for myself is not considered a crime. Since, you know, it's not really enforceable.

And it's not like they can't be bothered. In fact, I got a visit from the Police yesterday, inquiring about the use of an IP address (they ripped off a site). I was unable to help, it was the gateway for an open wifi AP.

Not identical, though, as actual innovations, inventions, techniques, chemical compounds, etc have patent protection. You can copy all you want, they're public, but you can't use them.

IMO, quite a different story, since the stuff a patent protects is money making, not personal use.

I don't think anyone here think it's right, legal or even "OK" to use someone else's invention to make money, immediately after it was invented and before the owner had priority.

Plus, patents expire. And, there are movement efforts to bring the expiry dates down. Also, there are efforts being directed at bypassing some of them. And I agree. If a cure for cancer is ever invented, I don't believe it's right to not give it to a dieing human because another human wants another chocolate fountain.

I don't think the concepts are very similar. Among other things, it would render branding useless, as all copies are just as good as the original (assuming a perfect copier).

I'm guessing all copiers will be intentionally crippled to keep anyone for replicating what they shouldn't. Like, you know, money, other replicators, bio-weapons and stuff. So that's why Picard kept saying replicated food never tasted like the original.

OTOH, end of world hunger. Solar powered sand to tasteless rice converter. OTOOH, nobody works any more.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Although I don't think it is OK to pirate anything, I have done it in the past (and very likely I'll end doing it again).
I certainly try to go for the freeware or pay for the software, but I find it hard with movies and music... I go to movies very often, but buying/renting is harder than just downloading. Same happens to music, sometimes it is easier to find the cd online, than getting it in a store (even online strores...)
I do think that piracy is some kind of theft, and therefore I'm trying hard to not do it. But sometimes I just can't...

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

It seems my memory misled me. I checked up and you are correct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement

However, from the standpoint of the content creator/owner, the difference is one of mere semantics. Infringement is still illegal.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

From the standpoint of a pirate, it doesn't matter whether it is legal or not, so why do content publishers so often use obnoxious DRM to frustrate the paying customer. Why bother?

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Actually, there is a huge difference. It is much more than mere semantics. If someone stole something from you, it is a criminal offense. You can go to the police and file a complaint, and he will be prosecuted by the state/country. If the thief is convicted, he might face jail, and he will have a criminal record.

In case of copyright infringement, even though there are criminal liabilities in some very specific cases, such as selling pirated copies commercially, simple copyright infringement is not a criminal offense. If someone copied your program or song, you cannot go to the police and file a complaint. You can sue him in court (just like you can sue someone for contract violations), and he can be fined, and in some countries such as the US the fines can be pretty hefty, but this is still a civil law court.

And all this is just from a legal point of view, without getting into a discussion concerning the moral and ethical differences between piracy and theft.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

sela, I said it's semantics from the standpoint of the content creator or owner.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

A lot of discussion about one person's petty justification to get something for free that costs so very little to them.

Autodesk gives you their software if you're a student. Adobe charges basically what people would already spend a month on beer for their creative suite. And what's odd... the OP was one of the people talking about buying a spare N900 (I think) and yet they can't purchase the software to support their education?

Just sad.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Photoshop CS5 is 699 USD. You drink a lot of beer.

Creative suite non upgrade (basic) is 2300 EUR. You have a drinking problem :P

I'm sure we are talking about different things.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

HAHAHAHAHA! Thank you for perhaps the best laugh all day.

When I was taking refresher courses, Photoshop (pre-CS series) was like 99 bucks for the academic version. It's now $199 for the Extended Version via places like JourneyEd. I was talking about the academic versions.

And it's free for all Autodesk software.

And I'll be attending those AA meetings from now on...

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Something interesting to quote here is that many universities have academic alliances for students to get discounted/free licenses to software. I know Microsoft does that, and I use a lot of Microsoft products for free because my university is a part of the Microsoft Academic Alliance.

But to answer you original question, piracy is piracy, whether its done by a student or whoever else it is! :)

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

For the record, I have never pirated software in my life and never will. I use a lot of open source software though, and always prefer it -- not because of the cost, but because of the freedom.

Nevertheless, I think it is okay for people with limited financial resources to pirate software, and I voted accordingly.

Lots of good points in this thread, but I liked most ndi's arguments. My own points were already stated in one form or another, but here they are compiled:

• "Okay" is not the same as "legal" -- so clearly it can be okay yet illegal.
• Laws have nothing to do with morals, we can only hope (and fight) for the laws of the country we live in to be at least compatible with our own moral beliefs.
• Pirating may not be the same as theft, but it leads to missed profits, so it is a cause of economic loss for the owner of the copyright, as theft would have been.

Before intellectual property products could be replicated and propagated so easily, those who created them could not reap the same profits as they do today. Now, that the possibility has emerged for anyone to replicate and propagate someone else's IP, we are back to the original situation when the profits are impossible unless we have laws to guard the IP. Thus, laws were created to maintain industries that have only existed briefly. With the current economic models, those new industries are dependent on the new laws in order to maintain profitability.

Enforcing these laws will be only practical as long as the benefits from them for society as a whole (not just for the industry reaping the profits) are higher than the cost to enforce the laws. We are currently witnessing how patent fights stall development, how FOSS gains recognition, how new companies seek novel revenue models based on distributing IP free of charge (while not being evil).

I firmly believe that at some point within our lifetime guarding IP will become prohibitively expensive. So, for all of you pointing fingers, get off you high horses and realize how ridiculous your arguments will look when the current IP laws are discarded -- be it 5, 20, or 100 years from now. The ones that break those laws today may well be celebrated as revolutionaries tomorrow.

I refuse to cast a stone.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I'm still curious to hear if every single anti-piracy advocate here that took the time to giddieup on their mighty high horses have ever had a pirated piece of software (app, game, music, movie) in their possession and/or enjoyed someone else's. It doesn't really matter when it was or why it was - if you did it you really have no right to ram your dubious morals down anyone's throat as that person may well be in exactly the same situation (age, financial situation, etc) as you were then.

For the record I'm against software piracy myself but I downloaded music and movies years ago so there would be too many glasswalls for me to start throwing any bricks due to me now being in a situation where I don't have to do so. Doesn't give me any right to judge others.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Since you asked, I'll be honest. I still have stuff from the Napster days I've yet to listen to... I got that much stuff. But I've pirated. And justified it because I was younger, not in that field... stupid... oblivious to what it meant to make your own software.

Then I grew up. Then I became the software developer myself. I have almost always purchased software - music not so much - but there were a couple of items I didn't pay for; but I got them through other means. I beta tested for Microsoft since the Windows 95 beta days. I still do. And I keep up my MCSE and I'm active with a Microsoft Certified Partner and have access to MSDN/Technet. I've beta tested for Adobe, Macromedia, Corel, Fractal Design, VMware, MetaTools, Electric Rain, Discreet and Autodesk... and was "blessed" enough to find a ton of bugs during the beta days, get free software that support my design side too.

Then I got into the Linux world... even paid for Kylix. I've bought or received over 90% of my software... pirated less than 5% and I've gone backwards and actually paid for those.

But yeah, I've pirated. And I've come to understand that it affects a lot of folks directly and indirectly. It also can be avoided. I've written companies, asked if they had a program where I could test their software or use it as a hobbyist. Toon Boom Studio responded, as have others... and it's pretty cool. I didn't make a dime from their software, but I sure as hell learned from it.

So to be honest... in the past, yep. Did it. Now? For the last 12 years, I have not pirated software. Music though? Hell yeah... I have. But I also have an over 1000 CD collection that I purchased, and have been slowly transferring them to MP3's... so much so that I don't listen to what I stole while I was being stupid during my Napster days.

If you want the software, I'm quite sure there are SO MANY ways to legally get it. All you have to do sometimes is ask... surprising what it does for you.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

So if you have ever stolen you aren't qualified to say that theft is morally wrong?

I guess that means if you've driven drunk and killed someone in an accident while drunk, you would have "no right to ram your dubious morals down anyone's throat" by trying advise someone else not to drive while drunk.

The original poster sought opinions I don't recall any qualifiers to that request.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I am afraid I still do not understand what you mean by that. It is mere semantics from the standpoint of the content creator/owner in what sense? Do you mean they are similar because both acts are considered a violation of the law?

Going back to the analogy I gave at a previous post: Slander and rape are both unlawful. Yet nobody would even consider saying that from the standpoint of the victim, the difference between them is only semantics.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

It's an interesting argument but the facts don't change. I can't speak for other countries, but here in America the education system does what it can to make sure that a student has the resources they need to do their coursework, either through student labs or appropriate discounts, so there is simply no need for students to steal.

Now, your assertion is that those who have pirated in the past aren't one to judge. There's a difference between condemning actions and condemning people. I think discussions have been generally civil (certainly not out of hand as things can easily go on the internet). I see nothing with an exchange of ideas, that is in fact why the question was posed, was it not?

I used to back-in-the day, before the days I bought PKZip, so I understand why people do it. It doesn't mean though that its right or that I should encourage or condone it.

You can disagree with someone without judging them.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

He is saying from the perspective of the creator - it still feels as if you have stolen something from them. Even if it's not classified as "theft".

This whole slander/rape analogy is lost on me... they aren't remotely similar to theft/piracy.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Interesting. I'd like to understand this new business model you mention. So you want artists and software developers to work for free. Would you like to work for free?

Maybe one day the earth will become like the "Star Trek Federation" where society did away with notions of individual wealth and everyone lived together in harmony sharing all they had and everyone worked in their jobs for no pay but because it was their duty in the new society.

I think you should be the first revolutionary and work for free. Be the example for the rest of us! :-)

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

a) Having thousands of CDs obviously doesn't justify stealing even one right so I'm not 100% sure on why bringing that up as an argument :)

b) And yes, of course there may well be options and all one has to do is ask - but the same was probably also the case when you pirated yourself. The point is, I don't see why people feel that they have this right to be SO hard on people pirating today (individuals or in general) - if they have done it themselves in the past. These people may well be in exactly the same 'phase' as you yourself were when you committed the same acts.

It's obviously possible that there is a fair level of projection/deflection going on as the issue hits so close to home.
Sad really.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Interesting fact, there is enough food in the world today so that everyone can get 3 square meals and be healthy. There is no need for replicators, simply a redistribution / sharing of resources.

If working for free and sharing is great for artists and software developers, why not extend that to all parts of society. No one should make any money and everything should be shared. The perfect world right?

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

It's part of the following ideal... continue reading...

I had to learn these things. Once I did, I didn't return to that life style. So I'm stating that my mistake shouldn't be their mistakes. It's called growth. Even idiots like me are capable of it.

Some people learn, some people teach others of their mistakes with the hope they won't repeat them... some people justify each bad deed in their life... some people never ****ing grow.

I can hope that my attempt in becoming more adult about how I view things can help others.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

That I agree with 100%. But when I read posts like "they can afford to buy McDonalds and beer but they pirate software" (not a direct quote) I find those comments to be very hypocritical if coming from someone who have pirated himself. Anyway, I think the discussion is rather circular and I got an early morning.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

The product of my work is IP, and I voluntarily give away the copyright. Even more, it is in my best interest if anyone has free access to my works. I still do not work for free.

I did not say I have a complete business model where IP is free to everyone -- I merely pointed out that the current situation, where you can simply replicate your works and expect a return from each copy, has not been very long in existence, and will likely not remain much longer in existence.

Earlier on this thread, others gave good examples of professions that stopped being profitable. I am sorry to repeat that, but those who solely rely on selling IP may be practicing such a profession.

A minor note -- I don't understand why you should use Star Treck as an example -- we have a good example here on Earth, it's called Communism, and we all know how that went. I am not suggesting we try that, I am suggesting though that the economy laws of capitalism will likely do away with IP, so that Capitalism can develop further.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is wrong. Would you say an ex-alcoholic can't tell a current alcoholic not to drink? An ex-drug user can't tell a current drug user that they should avoid drugs? Maybe only a perfect parent can tell their kids not to do bad things, and parents who made mistakes in the past have to keep their mouths shut.

Feel free to address the point of the argument and not skirt the issue. Most students call themselves poor but somehow is able to find money to buy gadgets, fast food and beer (for those that drink). Strange that when it comes to software their bank account is 0. You don't find that convenient or odd?

And by the way, I bought PKZip when I was in college, including Windows, Office and AutoCad 9(before they came out with student bundles). Cost me a lot but I was an engineer and wanted to work from home instead of being in lab all night. I chose to eat out less and didn't buy clothes all of the time and I saved until I had enough. So yeah, it can be done.

I pirated when I was in elementary school and the teacher said it was ok to copy software and so we shared among friend not knowing the difference.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

You want music and software to be free. How will they get paid, by ads? Is that the direction you want to go?

Fair enough. Until you come up with this new revolutionary model, why don't we stick with the current one. But feel free to give whatever you want away fro free and show us the way.

There certainly is a shift. Newspapers are going away while cable news is going strong. Is that a good thing? It's certainly different.

Interesting, so a drug company spends millions if not billions on a new cancer drug and someone can just copy it for free and resell it at a cheaper price? In the future I can just copy the iPhone.Next and sell it under my name? Sounds convenient for the knock-off market but kinda punishes the innovators, no?

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Not so sure about that. Does it really feel as if I have stolen something from them? If someone steals my CD, I can feel the CD missing from my bag. If I am a recording artist and somebody copied my CD from a friend, I may have lost some potential revenue from not buying my CD (which he may or may not have done if he did not have any way of copying the disk).

People are using the word "steal" in many different contexts. People may complain that someone "stole their idea", for example, even though an idea alone is not a protected IP at all. A shop owner may complain that his new competitor across the street "steals" customers from him. And by the same token, you can claim these actions are too similar to theft from their perspective. Yet, their property rights were not violated in any of these cases, only their expectations.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

@geohsia: All the points that you are making are already answered by my previous post. I guess ysss was right, nobody is gonna leave this thread any wiser :)

Don't be so hung up on the "selling IP" thing, it's not going to survive. I don't have to come up with a new system, someone else will soon enough.

The drug example that you give is a good way to show how the current system is broken, just change cancer with some common infectious disease. Generic drugs cost very little to produce, yet many millions go into the research of the original. If we don't protect the IP, the company who did the research doesn't get a return on their investment. If we do, millions of children die.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

There's an element of 'taking things for granted' and 'displaced sense of entitlement' that imho is the antagonist in this discussion.

Let's say a valuable IP has yet to be created. Choose your own example, something that is worthwhile to you and it takes significant resource to be developed and can't be done overnight:

- Cure for cancer
- An epic movie/game with huge budget
- An uber firmware for n900, giving it Rosetta Stone capability to run android, iOS, WebOS and WPhone7 compatibility
- Whatever

If said IP does not exist today and the creator asks you point blank "Will you pay $100 for this today, so I can work on it for the next x months and you can have it when it's finished?"

Then people will probably say "Yes." Because right now that LUXURY does not exist yet and they realize the true value of said IP.

Things evidently change drastically when said IP has materialized and it's just a matter of CTRL-C and CTRL-V combo to acquire it.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

True dat. Yet I wonder how many of the revolutionaries in the past were only in it for the loot.

Spot-on, again.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

You confuse advice to moral high ground. It is OK to serve as an example to others, is cought and punished. But if you ram people while drunk on a daily basis, no preaching.

Interesting fact: Hauling it half way across the globe before it spoils is prohibitive. Check your facts.

It sounds cool, and it gives people hope that there's enough food. There is no way to get it where it's needed. Thus, useless, and with countries throwing food and others starving.

From the same edition of agitator weekly, did yo know that the sun offers more than we need? It's just a matter of capturing it. Same problem. Prohibitive.

But it's easier if we have someone to blame. Damn (country here), they throw food and (country) starves.

Disagree. You can't compare a DVD with an addiction.

See above. It's like an uncought, bag full of loot, retired thief preaching honesty.

Just because one no longer steals doesn't mean it's aaaaalll better. One either has moral high ground or not.

Yes it's good advice and, of course, one is free to declare theft wrong, freedom of speech and all. One, however, should be prepared to be pointed back to a time when one ignored one's own advice.

My English is rusty. What is that word for people who preach but don't practice? The nature of the excuse is irellevant.

If anything, I was a pioneer for IT in a country ravaged by civil unrest. Back then, there was no law, it was legal to copy and sell whatever you wanted. I never used that as an excuse for piracy.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

As a content creator (I have registered copyrights and potential patents) *I* am very sure about it.

And you're making the common error of confusing the content with the conveyor. The value in the CD is not the material-- it's the magic in it.

If I make 100,000 boxed copies of a software product, is it okay for you to walk into a store and steal one?

If I decide to use the internet instead of boxes and CDs as my converyer (virtual packaging and distribution), and release 100,000 units as 100% digital instead, is it okay for you to download one without paying?

Those failing to see the equivalence are suffering a severe logic breakdown, and relying on rank rationalization to defend wrongful behavior. You're not buying the content-- you're paying for the right to USE it.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Most staple foodstuffs will keep long enough. We're not talking about shipping ready cooked "big mac meals with fries" around the world :)

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I'm going to renege a little on my steadfast belief that pirating is wrong.

Pirating for the purpose of rebelling against DRM is justifiable.


EDIT: maybe not prices, at least not for all media.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Round and round we go.

Drug companies routine license drugs for the third world so that it can be sold more cheaply in other markets.

The bigger question that will be debated though, is once you stop protecting IP, will that hinder competition and innovation. Newspapers used to be huge, but now that its free and anyone can get access to it anywhere, newspapers are a dying breed. If drug companies can't make millions, will they still try to innovate and spend the hundreds of millions / billions to bring a drug to market only to be sold out by another multinational that can crank out drugs faster and cheaper because they didn't have to do research?

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Um, we do that already today. Next time you're at the supermarket, look at the fruits and vegetables. See how many are from different countries. The world is a much smaller place than it used to be.

I get it, you're hung up on high moral ground. All I'm trying to do now is explain to others the impact of their actions. I'm not sure why you think that's important and I will not fight that battle. I will say there are recovered addicts and ex-convicts who have turned their life around and some have very inspiring messages, and can speak positively into the lives of those living in the same problems they used to face. They're not better or holier, but they do have experience they can draw from for wisdom.

The folks here seem honest and genuine, that don't support piracy. I'm sure all at some point have done some sort of piracy but now don't. I don't see why they're point of view is any less valid.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Actually I think the big mac and fries will be around long after I've turned to dust. ;)