Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

And becoming the Wintel of phones from manufacturers point of view, except for the fact that Google sells the ink cartridges on Android.

HTC seems to be taking first steps out of Google's "All your non-harware revenue are belong to us" trap with Google Maps alternative. Will be intersting to see how it goes.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

That is exactly the difference Nokia is not a company that adopts Symbian or MeeGo. It's a company that develops them. And they also produce hardware. Google and Microsoft also tried to venture in the hardware market (Nexus was made by HTC alright but it was a google branded phone - who knows what the plan was) but failed miserably.

I can assume that the place that nokia is (hardware vendor with it's own software and software vendor for others at the same time) is where everybody wants to be.
Ms Kin, Google Nexus, and Samsung Bada all smelled like that. Bada is the last one alive...
________
01SmilyBlonde

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

Just business as usual.

Google isn't dumb. Samsung isn't dumb. htc isn't dumb.
Being Android 'serfs', they certainly get plenty of benefits too.

Sure, if Nokia can take off with S*3/4 and/or MeeGo, then their potential gain is high. That is, IF they can pull something off that they've failed to do for the past few years again and again.
Then there's Ovi. And their constant internal flux.

And Apple, Google and RIM are not standing still either.

It's a tough winter out there.

Nokia may pee in their pants if they can't control themselves.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

So if google also made its own hardware, the adopters of Android would not be "peeing in their pants to warm up" any more?

Nokia wants others to adopt Symbian as much as Google wants others to adopt Android. The matter of choice will of course always be there, unless Google manages to produce such a strong offering that no other OS can survive.

There are more things than just the OS to differentiate a device after all.

To me Anssi's statement sounds like a classic case of cognitive dissonance.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

Yes, I think Google's true colors are a question mark, but I think we'll have good answers by the end of 2011.

For the sake of argument, let's say Google is evil. By evil, I mean Embrace Extend Extinguish. Then the question is, how are they different from Microsoft? For me, it's because they learned from Microsoft's biggest mistake: You actually have to be better than the other guy.

Google is full steam ahead, but they know how to admit mistakes and regroup. Google Wave is a great example; it was a bit too much and they nuked it. Now, it looks like they're taking the useful pieces and reformulating them.

So, I don't know yet whether they're good or evil, but they seem to know the difference between the right and wrong way to do things. And it all trickles down from the top. The ego, or lack there of, of a CEO is always telling.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

I think Anssi - love his choice of wording btw - is fairly right. He of course means mostly manufacturers, not the end users. Especially if Google goes through with their purpoted plans with 3.0 Gingerbread UI of eliminating the possibilities of device manufacturers to create their own custom UI's, the game for the manufacturers very quickly comes down to who can create the cheapest appealing hardware running the same software. Similar to what happened in the desktop world a long time ago. Companies like HTC especially would not like that at all, since they want to create 'additional value' - i.e. more expensive devices to sell - through customizing the default Android experience.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

This article is ridiculous. To say that a single-OS/multi-device strategy doesn't work from a profitability standpoint is to ignore the last two decades of Windows computers, and the respective companies producing them that have come to dominate the industry.

With this level of 'foresight' it's not surprising he was fired.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

Well, then your analogy fails. I don't remember Dell, Gateway, Acer, ..., etc. rewriting the MS Windows UI.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

Yes and no.

I think understanding that the computer market has been commoditized and that profits are shrinking because everyone is selling the same thing is a challenge. It is in this environment though that Apple is able to charge so much. A) because they do make nice product and B) because it isn't Windows. That's Nokia's challenge, bring differentiation and quality. We'll see if they can do that.

In the Android market, the reason there is so much fragmentation is because there are so many players. They have to stand out from every other Android vendor. Nokia if they joined Android would undoubtedly have to do the same, so Android or not, there's still plenty of work to be done, though presumably not as much with Android.

The bottom line for me is, I think it would be nice for Nokia to run Android, but I think the mobile market is still young enough that they can take another big player. The market is still developing. Cloud services are still being worked on. It's too early to call game over.

If after MeeGo releases, everything goes south and no one buys one S^3 or MeeGo phone, how long would it take for Nokia to crank out Android phones? For them, probably not very long. I just don't think they're done fighting.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

They're not (well, except some of them do try to cram on their additional 'useful' pieces of software on top of the OEM builds). But that's the game that they're then playing: the profit margins are much lower than what is currently achieved through selling mobile devices. There are a gazillion smaller manufacturers all competing for the same piece of pie.

I'm not sure many companies like HTC or Samsung or Motorola want to turn out to be the new Acers and Gateways (no disrespect to those companies as such).

It'll be very interesting to see anyway what Google does in 3.0.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

Sorry, I'm not convinced (nor angry, so don't take this post the wrong way). You introduce new points into the argument some of which I agree, but my original point is hard to refute: despite increased competition for a single-OS/multi-device (SOMD) implementation, there are many companies that have taken pole position in the computer/laptop market despite a singular OS with an undifferentiated UI. There is precedent to state that the model 'works' so a claim that implies that it absolutely does not, is insipid at best.

And Apple's recent success is due to many variables, including the PMP, Phone, App store, Media store, etc. Few of which directly compete with the Windows Desktop PC OS.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

All your hardware are belong to us...

using android is like peeing in your pants...

This thread is freaking hillarious :D :D

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

I have to admit, I don't understand that comment...

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

@ragnar

It could be as simple as this:

Google wants revenue from an app ecosystem. So, they want to attract developers by trying to control the middle to upper layers of the OS. No one wants an IE 6 fiasco, users or developers. The hardware manufacturers won't see a dime from that app ecosystem as far as I can tell, yet they know that brand loyalty through differentiation helps create larger profit margins [see Apple]. I'm not sure if it's even legal, but Google should give them a piece to create some peace.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

I understand. I don't see you as angry at all, nor am I. I don't disagree that Nokia could be successful in the Android market. All I'm saying is that it's still early and room for another big player. The market is far from saturated and people are still staking their claim on new territory, though Nokia is incredibly behind, but like I said, if Nokia wanted to enter into the Android market, they can pretty quickly.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

He's not saying that it can't be profitaböe, just that the profitability is low. Wintel dominates PC industry, but profit margins for manufacturers are low. Just go look at Dell's margins or what HP makes from consumer PC's without the printer income.

You can allready see similar situation developping for Android manufacturers. LG just reported huge losses for it's phone division and LG's phone chief resigned. Motorola's handsets still make losses and Motorola is only floating because CEO has sold all the crown jewels, last one being the network unit to Nokia Siemens Networks. Sony Ericsson is just barely profitable, HTC has started looking for ways out of Google's service dominance and Samsung has Bada as long term solution.

Edit: I'm not saying that Android isn't good platform from consumer point of view, it is. It also has bright future ahead and there will be manufacturers making devices for it, just like there are manufacturer for putting Intel CPUs and Windows in PCs. It will profitable, but not a goldmine for manufacturers.

Yeah they fired him, then asked him to stay for six months and be the keynote speaker at Nokia's most important event next day.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

Actually, I do. Anybody remember Packard Bell and their MS Bob-like UI that kicked in INSTEAD of the Windows GUI? I do. :)

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

I'm suggesting Tivoization of the flash (fiasco, for instance) image or enough binary blobs to make it so that you can't get things fixed or to do what YOU want.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

Excuse me, but you can't be suggesting that the loss of profit of LG and Motorola is because of Android and not because of terrible hardware produced. Not to mention that Motorola has managed to actually gain a bit from Android.

Of course everyone wants to have the best product and thus prefer diversity, but it would be stupid not to adopt a technology that has the edge just so you can say "I am different" and then produce something that does 1/10th of what you snubbed.

Google is not stopping samsung from producing Bada, or Nokia from producing Meego. They offer a cross platform alternative. I am still struggling to understand what the hardware manufacturers, and furthermore the consumers can lose in the long term because of it.

I mean does anyone here deny that Nokia didn't try to do the same with Symbian? If not then why is Nokia licensing Symbian for other platforms?

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like pissing in your pants for warmth
 

tag: nokia's balmer - f*cking epic :)

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like pissing in your pants for warmth
 

Anyone familiar with Vanjoki knows better than to compare him with Steve Ballmer. Now, contrast maybe...

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like pissing in your pants for warmth
 

Android (or iOS) may be the soup du jour but the desktop and the handheld are rapidly converging.....good luck to all the players because the field is rapidly enlarging. With this larger field, expect ALOT more players.......many veterans too. A very entertaining game to watch!

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

Windows computers are actually a very bad example as they confirm the original point - the only permanently dominant company was Microsoft, the hardware vendors rose and fell, came and went. Very few of those who were in the original PC business are still with us (HP the only notable exception that comes to mind). IBM, Amstrad, Compaq, Epson, Olivetti, WYSE, Zenith, just to name a few big players that no longer do PCs (or exist at all)... All of them huge at the time, but didn't survive. At best every major manufacturer had rough patches in the cutthroat arena of commoditized PC hardware.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like pissing in your pants for warmth
 

AND, google has already said theat they don't think android is ideal for tablets and are going to try chromeOS on their own reference tablet IF they release one

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

Yes ! But profit margins for PC sales are razor thin since it is a commoditized hardware nearly.

But profit margins from Smartphone sales are much higher - and I am sure each manufactirer (HTC, Moto Nokia) will try to protect the margins - and thats where the differentiation comes in. None of these players want the smartphone to become a commodity hardware running the same OS underneath, if they want to enjoy the profits - and its in Smartphones segment that the greatest profit margins are.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like pissing in your pants for warmth
 

And you KNOW that somewhere down the road, there won't be a difference between the two. :) (i.e. ChromeOS running Android apps)

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

I disagree. The market is highly saturated...Android platform is on practically every carrier. High end, low end... Some more than others. Nokia can stand out or be that ALTERNATIVE that a lot of people are looking for but for some reason they keep developing Linux-based OS's (Maemo/MeeGo) that they soon after, drop like the plague only to go back to Symbian.

Symbian doesn't make the consumer's mouths water and they need to understand that. I hope Nokia will wake up and finally take a look around. Oh yeah btw, that was my foretelling about MeeGo. Nokia it seems is already disavowing any mention of it and has become uncomfortable when confronted about it. Nokia World was a prime example of this behavior. Just stop running in place...

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

They haven't dropped MeeGo, they dropped Maemo to continue with MeeGo together with Intel. The result being they can make both ARM and Intel devices running essentially the same software.

Maemo turned out to be a dead end road with no future, so what? get over it. This is probably the strangest things with all these symbian bashing threads. Symbian is the most successful mobile OS by far, and it just continue to grow. Meamo is one of the least successful mobile OS'es (not a bad OS by any means, but it has no future, there is no place for it in the mobile world).

Android may seem like the golden duck for some people here, but it is not. SE X10 Mini and soon to come X8 is killing all high end Android devices. Android phones are defined by the OS, and SE has lowered the list without lowering the specs. From a consumer point the value of the X10 mini and X8 is very high, and for any devices more high end (read: more pricey) than those two, the value drops like a stone, because the OS is the same, the definition of the phone has not changed, only the price.

Google may very well want it all, but it is not realistic, the marked is by nature much too segmented and differentiated. The only way to make this happen would be if Google made different versions of Android (starter, home and pro :eek: and then some more versions). This would perhaps work if they started 10-15 years ago (as Nokia did), but not today anyway, and certainly not with an OS that is essentially open source, and not when they have no hardware on their own. For Android to even survive in the near future, they have to focus on a segment where they reach out to most people, and that is the X10 Mini/X8 segment, and for the time being this suits SE and Huawei just fine. HTC on the other hand, will soon be in real problems, but maybe not, Windows Mobile 7 is coming. Motorola on the other hand, will vanish. IMHO of course :D

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like pissing in your pants for warmth
 

so what does google stand to gain from this?

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

I get what you're saying, and I don't mind admitting that my connotation - notice I didn't say denotation - is a bit softer than most in that regard.

So let's go with the consensus backed connotation of short-term. I still have to think that Nokia is guilty of this with the N8.

But we'll see.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like pissing in your pants for warmth
 

Actually there is quote on carrypad.com saying chromeOS is netbook only, maybe gingerbread.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like pissing in your pants for warmth
 

They both appear to honestly love their companies, straight-shooters unafraid to endorse their product over any others and vocal... and it stops there. The rest differentiates them (true enough) but lowest common denominators and a penchant to say things in triplicate "Developers, developers, developers" or "CBD, CBD, CBD" is compelling evidence of more alike than dislike...

But I get your sentiment. Ballmer comes off as an used-car salesman to me. Always has...

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

Sure, HTC, Motorola and Nokia are trying to protect the margins. But Sanyo? LG? Companies you've never heard of from China? No chance. And furthermore, if all smartphones run android, it WILL be commoditized hardware. Which leads to razor thin margins. In a sense, it almost already is. The Vibrant isn't that different from the Nexus or the Optimus 1 or the Droid X. It's just a couple of pieces of different hardware. As they expand their lineups, it'll get closer and closer. And that's not where Nokia wants to be.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

First off, no one is boo-hooing about the supposed "dead end road with no future" of Maemo. That's what MeeGo is suppose to be... a continuation of Maemo. Second of all, this isn't a Symbian bashing thread either. The point I was making is that MeeGo will go away just like Maemo did (without any support from Nokia). That's my opinion. We can speculate all we want about MeeGo but it's just funny (in a weird marketing way) that at Nokia World 2010 they spoke nothing about the MeeGo platform that will supposedly be released on some handsets in a couple of months.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like pissing in your pants for warmth
 

You've got a point.

I can hear the mutterings from Mountain View:

"Please don't pee in our pants... please don't pee in our pants..."

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

Since MeeGo-Harmattan is, essentially, Maemo 6 with a colorful, new nameplate, it is very much a continuation of Maemo. GTK was slated to be replaced by Qt in Harmattan long before the merger, so a complete UI rewrite was due anyway, and the substantial similarities between Maemo and Moblin on the lower layers were exactly what led to the merger happening.

Changes end users will see moving from Maemo 5 to MeeGo-Harmattan should primarily be ones they'd have seen moving from Maemo 5 to Maemo 6 anyway. Whether those changes are beneficial or not are up to each individual to decide.

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

this is so wrong that I cannot find words for it. did you even read/understand what this all is about?

e: I'll edit all my replies here

if you don't want to head to bulk manufacturing, you need to have your own services. and even better: if you have bought a navigation company and have a lot map data, software, etc, where's the point to use os that has google maps built in?

that is the problem. unless you can produce stuff cheaper than foxconn, you are in big trouble.

sorry, but you just blew your point with the last words rendering your facts as "facts". Van Joking resigned.

I wasn't surprised when I saw who thanked you btw ;)

"the boy who cried the wolf"

I am seriously considering that you have really limited capacity between your ears.

what about lenov... khrm ibm? didn't they get a rid from pc:s? ....


how exactly does that differ from S^3(&4) vs MeeGo + Qt?

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like pissing in your pants for warmth
 

It's not quite as cold in Mountain View. Literally and metaphorically. :)

Your face has a limited capacity between your ears. :P

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

So is iOS. And so is Nokia lol. All soul and blood sucking monsters. Just Nokia bad at sucking people soul that's all. Atleast we got OpenSource N900 :)

Re: Anssi Vanjoki says using Android is like peeing in your pants for warmth
 

Somehow you missed all of the stats flying around. In the overall smartphone market Nokia DOMINATES, and I'm a pretty harsh critic of Nokia's strategies. In the high-end they are virtually non-existent but no one disputes that Nokia absolutely OWNS the majority of low-end. Sorry, I like Android, but the numbers don't support your assertion.

Why is that important? Because of Nokia's brand history and focus on non-US markets, a lot of those low-end customers would look at Nokia's high-end offering first as they move up and as Nokia releases competitive product. Could they move to Android / iOS? Sure, but with that much marketshare, you bet Nokia has customer retention in mind when they released the N8 and E7.

If Nokia gets out of Symbian S^3 and MeeGo, every low-end smartphone customer that wants to enter the high-end smartphone market would have no choice but to go to Android or IOS. At least Nokia gives them that choice. It's no lock, but if they execute well (don't even have to necessarily be better) I think they have a good shot at keeping those customers in the high-end.

Maybe. I'm not convinced yet that MeeGo is going to go away. I can see Nokia slimming down to one OS for the mid to high end market. The problem with S^3 is that it's good for phones but not much good for anything else like tablets or auto entertainment / navigation systems. With MeeGo you can have a more comprehensive ecosystem. I can see S^4 going away and if MeeGo is successful in a short time then I can see S^3 fading away too, but those are big IFs.

The millions of smartphone users around the world disagrees. Looking at the high-end US market, I'm with you. Broaden to the overall market and you may not have a case. There are hundreds of millions of smartphone users that are ripe for picking as they move to the high-end and no one is as well positioned to pick them off as Nokia, but they have a lot of work to do to make it happen.

Actually, it's not. Who would care about the N8 and E7 if all you talked about was how awesome tablets and MeeGo N9 will be. Do you really they are going to pull a Kanye on themselves. I can see it now at Nokia World...

"Yo Symbian S^3, I'm really happy for you, I'll let you finish, but MeeGo is going one of the best mobile OSes of all time. One of the best OSes of all time!"

Then what, they go on to demo the N8 and the E7? They did the right thing, otherwise they would pretty much have ruined their entire launch, and just from a practical point of view, MeeGo isn't even ready. What, more mockups and more promises that soon you will have in 6 months? No they have to stop doing that. They announce when they're ready to ship and get it to customers hands. They need to be disciplined.

Nokia will be fine. They need to get their act together, but they're executing to what they said they'd do at the beginning of the year. Let them do what they need to do. If the N8 in fact does suck and the E7 is a lame duck, we'll know soon enough. If MeeGo is stillborn then its over.

What you have to realize too is that the Android market is all about comoditization. Who can get it out faster and cheaper. Customers don't care if they have a moto or HTC phone or Samsung. They have Android. If Nokia entered you can bet they can duke it out in terms of design and cost just like the rest of them. They're not there yet.