Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Maybe he simply doesn't know about the N800... is that his fault, or the fault of the marketing department?

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Read his article. In the process of praising Apple to no end, he is making bold assertions about what products Nokia does not and can not make. His sin is one of omission. The onus is on the writer to fully research his subject before committing his work to print. Had he simply examined Nokia's product list, he would have quickly discovered the 770 and N800 tablets and saved himself some embarrassment.

Only an idiot, or someone with a highly selective agenda, would spout off in such ignorance as this writer did. Either one is worthy of skewering IMO.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

That just makes you look more guilty.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Yeah, fair enough :) He could have done some research, but then he's not exactly John Pilger - just another rabid Apple fanboi blogger. :D

What is quite disturbing is that he gives credibility to the Apple store worker, as if this worker has first hand knowledge of where Apple are going in future! Does anyone believe anything Fry or BestBuy workers (Dixons and Currys in the UK) say? Certainly not! He loses his entire credibility within the first few paragraphs. :)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I guess this is the (lousy) art of turning marketing into information. Nothing more. pages and pages are blackened of "infomercials" trying to convince people that "our truth is your truth".

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Aah, Amsterdam. Very old, but fond, memories :-)
Hope it hasn't turned into just another stupid place over the years...

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Some very insightful comments in this thread (in between the usual whining) :)

I'd like to respond with some thoughts pertaining to unit sales, the current and future portables market and the sustained viability of ITOS platform.

First, some observations which are axiomatic to my case:

• The tablets are computers.
  
• The 800x480 screen makes many more applications possible than with previous portable devices.
  
• The PDA/PIM market is crowded with many devices, many of which have sold only tens of thousands of units.
• Windows based pda-devices exist from many vendors, and the total userbase is several orders of magnitude above that of the embedded linux userbase.
• The strength of the developer community, the diversity and quality of ITOS apps and the size of the commercial software market around ITOS and the tablets is proportional to the number of users.

What kind of product can Nokia offer that will drive enough sales to attract enough developers to make the tablet devices strong contenders in the market and ITOS a viable platform in the coming years?

It is illustrative to reflect on what made the tablets relatively successful in the first place: Nokia was first-to-market in the Internet Tablet niche, thanks largely to the unique 800x480 display. As competitor devices appear with this resolution, the tablet's unique position will dissolve into a rapidly maturing ubiquitous 'do-everything' handheld market. If the ITOS user/developer-base has not reached critical mass by this point, it will be in danger of fading into obscurity.

How can Nokia compete with a Linux device against Windows-based competitors offering similar resolution? Nokia probably can't develop market-leading PIM/Word-Processing applications on their own, and even if they did, they'd be placing it into a market crowded with competitors.

Where is an as-yet untapped niche with potential for not just tens of thousands, but millions of sales? Lets see what portable devices sell the most, next to phones:

Nintendo DS has sold 40 million units.
Sony PSP has sold at least 9 million units.

Nokia knows that kids and young adults are the biggest market for portable devices and the best target group to convince that a new class of device is 'cool' and 'must-have'. If they want to sell millions of units, show the kids something they haven't seen before - the unit that plays awesome games and has enough resolution to do the internet surfing, notetaking, chatting etc. This would be the next ground-breaking product - something not seen before.

There is no technical reason that the next tablet can not be made to be an excellent next-generation gaming device. The OMAP 3430 has the core speed and 3D graphics to outclass anything on the market today. With the linux OS and OpenGL the tablet would have extremely low barriers/costs to commercial studios to port their existing titles. From a hardware standpoint, the main requirement would be a fast 8-way dpad and buttons for the right hand; this could be in the form of a clamshell slide-on gaming-controller case, or integrated into the main case (the latter might be a design/image turn-off to the 'corporate' users).

With an OpenGL-capable system, game houses could port existing and classic PC games in weeks. By signing deals and bringing-out the do-everything tablet with big-name game titles in 2008, they could once again create a new class of portable device, but this time, with a market potential for millions of units.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Ummm. I'm 35 and I have a DS. I'm not in the N800 for game playing (Battlegewelled aside). I hope Nokia does not do the "Kids" market like the music industry has done. Kids spend other people's money. There's a whole untapped market of people who if marketed to with easy to use devices, will spend millions on whatever that product is.

The N800 doesn't have to be billed as PIM but PIM abilities are a good thing (tm). I was pretty frustrated with the device until I found a means to sync with gCalendar. I'm using Wowio and reading books on the device (surprisingly nice). The N800 is a very good product it needs marketing. If Nokia is serious about this device it needs to market the thing.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Imho, focusing on gaming would be nearly suicidal. A gaming platform is just as good as the games that are on that platform. I don't think that this a technical problem, it's a issue of content. Competing against Sony and Nintendo and Microsoft on gaming ... Basically getting developers to develop on this platform instead of the other 100% gaming focused platforms would be very difficult indeed. Even the major players have problems convincing developers to develop for them. And if the device isn't really focused to gaming, it's a jack-of-all-trades, master of none.

Porting, even if it can be done technically, isn't really feasible from the UI perspective. Games that have been developed for the desktop computer for the most part do not really work on the tablet, because of touch screen focus, no mouse, no keyboard, limited screen resolution, limited performance etc.

That is not to say that gaming isn't a good use case. I personally believe much more on "casual gaming". There probably the browser will be in the most important role: supporting Flash and similar standards. Casual gaming has a whole new set of requirements. As well as online gaming. Also efforts elsewhere in Nokia, for instance N-gage things, try to (I hope) target a new kind of gaming.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

From a gaming perspective, if we could get a bluetooth mouse working (have we?) with an easy-to-toggle pointer I'd love to see some of the linux games out there get ported (Quake 3 would be particularly cool).

If we provide the means for developers to port 3d games with a minimum of hassle, we will get 3d games. It shouldn't be marketed as a gaming device, though, as that will just set it up for failure.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Arnim has valid points though, but here's what I'd like to see: split the platform into 3 areas of focus--

-General multimedia (current N800)
-Gaming (call it the Ngage800 ;))
-Enterprise/business (E800, et al)

There would be significant overlap between the 3, of course, but each would have unique features that made it better for its intended purpose. Naturally, you could still play some basic games on the "E800" and check email on the "Ngage800" but the commonality would essentially end right about there.

Just my opinion. Don't shoot.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Rather than add a d-pad to the Nxxx, wouldn't it be a better solution to get something like a Nintendo Wii controller working over Bluetooth? They only cost $20 tops, and would give you all the buttons you need for those that need it. :)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I just read a paper prepared for the execs of one of Nokia's future US WiFi competitors (Sorry, I wasn't suppose to see it either :) )...

They feel Nokia is moving big time and quickly into non-phone type devices (tablets, mini computers, et al.) and is expecting them @ market Q2, 2008. These devices supposedly will capitalize on a prevalent/pervasive WiFi connection.
In addition to connectivity, Nokia is purported to be developing all manner of new software interfaces as well.


Apparently all these folks are expecting big changes in how we connect and use our gizmo's, doo dads, and $400 potential paper weights.

I'm thinkin' with all this new use, alternatives to conventional batteries as power supplies will be the next investment opportunity. :)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

When the dust settled from our re-org, we had a shiny new set of values and a new description: Internet Company.

We still aren't exactly sure what that means, but we're slowly finding out...

Oh, and I like Milhouse's controller idea. I suggested a while back that the N800 could use a slip-on game controller like is available for older Nintendo game boys to enhance the experience.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Please, no. If I wanted a gaming device, I'd get a DS; a business PDA, I'd get a Palm; a PMP, I'd get an Archos, but I don't want any of those things, I want an N800--a Linux computer that fits comfortably in your pocket and will do nearly anything a laptop will do at a small fraction of the size, cost and inconvenience of a laptop. Nokia needs to focus on making the hardware fast (and efficient!) enough, and the software robust enough to suit almost any mobile computing situation. Product-line specilization will only degrade that goal (especially since I want to do all 3 things on my device).

That sort of abstraction seems like more of a software issue, anyway, which basically means you're crippling each device individually and reducing overall sales compared to a jack-of-all-trades device.

Aside: anybody else notice that text entry on the new browser is really buggy?

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Many people seem to emphasize that N800 is a computer, and I think that it's a huge mistake. If you place it in the computer domain, it is a slow computer with tiny screen, little storage, crappy text input and non-existent expandability. In my opinion it's not a computer, nor is it a PDA. It's an open source portable platform with steroids. With proper care and love you can make it do anything you like :)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Ah, but you're missing the point, it is a computer, just a computer with which you can browse the internet, watch movies, listen to music, video chat with friends, talk on IRC, navigate with Google Earth, and SSH into your home machine in comfort and style from your pocket. It's a truely portable laptop the frees you from all the nasty pitfalls of a laptop while sacrificing a minimum of functionality.

While I agree that calling it a computer may undermine its position somewhat, it does avoid the pitfalls of 'PDA' or 'PMP'. I don't believe using the poorly understood 'internet tablet' or 'internet device' nomers is necessarily a good choice either, as people seem to assume that it's a fancy term for 'PDA'.

Really, though, the device is a perfect complement to a desktop computer to eliminate that horrobly unusable class of ''mobile'' computing machines know as laptops.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

When inexpensive and pervasive WiFi becomes prevelent (less than 2 years in the USA) the value of a small, relatively inexpensive, mini-computer/tablet that can be left at a remote site as a process monitor or controller will become apparent.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Your idea for multiple form factors sharing a common core is also good - as it addresses the issue of providing more users for the software and core hardware platform.

You get the point that quality of apps (in general) is a function of number of users -- that my post was meant to address what Nokia can do with the next tablet to get a lot of users and thus broaden the open-source and commercial application base and solidify Maemo/ITOS a viable general-purpose platform. Unless the next tablet gains a lot of users, I see ITOS/Maemo evaporating.

RE: Milhouse's suggestion: for humans with two arms, a seperate game controller is not a workable solution for portable use- the controls need to be on, or attached-to, the device. If you already have a table for the tablet, a BT keyboard is sufficient as a two-handed gaming controller.

To expand on the constructive, here's a quick breakdown of gaming categories and how they relate.

• Commercial: Lining-up deals with publishers would mean selecting some big-name titles that would benefit from the high res and not require a mouse or analog joystick. World of Warcraft, Sim City, Adventures, Strategy games. DirectX->OpenGL is not entirely trivial but for the rest of the port, ITOS and the linux interfaces make porting about as easy as you can get. Nokia doesn't need to compete head-to-head with Sony and Nintendo for new titles but can cash-in on existing franchises and name-recognition with little investment.
  
• Casual: The N800 is a bit weak for 'heavy flash' used in games. A N800 successor will solve that with faster CPU. Casual on-line flash games are practically a shoe-in regardless of what Nokia does for the next tablet as long as performance increases.
  
• Emulation: Not to be underestimated. With Cortex and adequate controls (good Dpad+RHS buttons), a whole slew of emulators will run at full speed. This means that existing owners of a couple hundred million games sold for those systems could legally play them on the 'N900'. Sega Genesis, NES, Snes, Gameboy, GBA could be perfectly playable. With openGL and HLE, the Playstation 1 and Nintendo 64 would also be in the bag. The advertising line would be 'legally play your favorite games on-the-go'. This would allow Nokia to cash-in on the existing marketing investements of those game publishers.
  
• Homebrew/Open-Source: Less important but equally affected by hardware design, many of these are out of the range of current tablets (largely because few people have the time or skill to optimise them). Boosting performance and memory by 2x and providing OpenGL ES will easily triple the number of free games playable on the tablets.

----------

1. The features I advocated would not prevent you from using it as you intend.
2. You advocated witholding features that could enable it to appeal to millions of customers.
3. If it's a general purpose computer, why do you advocate people need to carry around 4 (FOUR) devices instead of one?

This is precisely the point. With only minor hardware adjustments, the device could gain the capabilities of a laptop. Your second statement (the tablet as a universal computer) directly contradicts the first (suggesting people should carry a Nokia Tablet, a Nintendo, a Palm and an Archos for diverse applications).

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

My suggestion was that people should buy those devices if they want specialization (as Texrat suggested), but that I very much like just having a single device to do everything.

It only seems to contradict because you read my post incorrectly (or my intentions were unclear, I was typing on that damn thumbboard :P). I don't want Nokia to develop specialized versions of the device at the expense of jack-of-all-trades functionality. I want a single device I can stuff in my pocket that (alongside a small cellphone) can do pretty much anything a fullsize computer can—games, business, media.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Dude. If there are 3 different devices, you pick the one that fits your needs, ie, in this case the general N800. I fail to see how offering MORE choices is a problem...? You seem to think I advocate eliminating a multiuse device to have nothing but specialty tablets. Nope.

No one is talking about crippling anything-- just extending the line (which is inevitable). And specialization doesn't degrade the goal. If it did, we'd be selling only one type of phone. ;)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

With the external MMC positioned on the bottom the N800 does lend itself to the idea of slip on, specialty use, jackets...

If the MMC cover was removed and the a software switch is used I could see a gamers jacket with side controls, a USB host jacket, a port replicator jacket, and even a cell phone or other Wireless connection jacket... all using SDIO to interface with the dang thing.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

It might be a problem if certain applications (eg PIM tools) were only available on one of the hardware platforms. Given the current nature of the way applications can be downloaded and delivered, I suspect it would be possible to get the apps installed on the other devices. However, not offering that level of flexibility would concern me.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

...

I still fail to see the problem.

If you continue producing a general purpose device like the N800, and then add some slightly or highly specilaized devices to the product line, so what if one device has difficulties running an application not intended for it?

Also, who said the OS wouldn't be platformed? That was actually part of the idea. So if an application couldn't run on one variant, it would likely be due to a hardware limitation, such as a camera missing from the enterprise version.

Some of the responses to expanding the product line quite frankly mystify me. The sort of thinking espoused would have certainly restricted cell phone offerings...

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Specialization REQUIRES that not every device have all the functionality of the platform. Unless, that is, your: device is actually the most expensive of the bunch and offers all the features of the two other devices (which doesn't seem to be the case, as "General multimedia" is not the same thing as "ultimate, unlimited super device" ;)). What seems to be implied by your post, though, is that each device would have a specific set of hardware and software features that would lend it to gaming, multimedia, or business usage, but, I want the device that can do all 3 without a lot of compromises.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Indeed, and Texrat - this was my point in general. I understand the hardware limitations can easily play a part, but I don't understand your "let's put a different OS into each device" - why not use a common OS, have common application repositories (or at least continue the easy cross compile capabilities), and allow the user to choose what additional apps they install or don't install...?

eg Out of the three types listed, I would want a combination of the Enterprise and Communications (General) versions, and could easily sacrifice some Multimedia (Gaming) capabilities. If I had to choose between Enterprise and Communications, then I might be inclined to choose a different manufacturer who provided what the consumer (or at least this consumer) wants.

I think I was possibly thinking of it the other way round to you - say Nokia produced an Enterprise version with PIM capabilities - it would seem wrong to me to not allow the other devices in the range to have PIM capabilities installed, although it might need payment of a license fee. Saying "you can either have a camera, video calling and Skype OR you can have PIM apps" would encourage those who want both to look elsewhere (in my opinion).

I see no harm in Nokia expanding the range, and it's free to do so however it likes, but it can either make it easier for itself, or make it harder.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

As long as more devices doesn't fracture the platform, I think it's a good idea. I want a N800 with gaming controls, and games, damnit. ;p

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Which is interesting, as I don't :)

So, expanding the range makes sense to capture a greater range of users, as long as existing ones aren't alienated :)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

From UI perspective I think that there should be at least two interface models. One for simple "do one thing well" type of programs, and other for complex programs like spreadsheet. The simple one could be optimised for use without stylus, and the other one with stylus in mind. If a program doesn't fit well in either category, it could have both interfaces with some features hidden in the simple version. That way the interface wouldn't have to compromise between these two worlds.

Oh, and I'm definitely for the right hand hardkeys. They would enable gaming on a totally different level, but could be programmed to bunch of things in regular programs too.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

You guys are killing me. You are really, really reaching to try to discredit my suggestion. So far not a single contradiction has held any water, though.

I never once said the general tablet should be affected by expansion.

I never once suggested different OS on each device.

I also never implied that a general purpose tablet (ie N800) should go away altogether, just in case that turns out to be another bizarre interpretation of my statements.

We have the N800 now. If you're happy with that device, GREAT! So am I. But just because you may not want a new variant created, why deny other customers that privilege. Arnim was once again on target: more variation/functionality means more customers, which means larger base, which make sit easier for Nokia to provide resources for the platform, etc etc etc.

But if any of you truly believe that ADDING devices to the family will automatically be a bad thing, you're gonna have to scrape up some better arguments than the ones so far...

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

My apologies - I misread "Also, who said the OS wouldn't be platformed?" as implying the OS would be device specific.

I agree expanding the range would be a good thing. I, and I suspect many others, just don't want to end up with another 770/N800 situation whereby the new devices are sufficiently different that Nokia believe they should be treated separately.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I think this thread reflects well upon the intelligence and commitment of the community.

It just occurred to me that this forum is above average. Cheers :)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Ah, ok, no problem.

PLatforming in the sense I used it means expanding the product line but maintaining commonality between them. That commonality could come in many different forms, one being visual schemes, but in this case I was meaning the OS is the common aspect. I apologize for not making that clear.

I fully agree with your point re 770/N800, and in fact that's what I'm supporting: create a OS/hardware base shared by all devices, and then create variants with unique aspects YET still maintaining enough commonality that the only differences software-wise will be those applications depending on hardware (such as a webcam). Hopefully that clarifies my position.

Also, don't read into this line of speculation any possible direction by Nokia. I am not involved with the tablet product development and at this point can only offer what I'd like to see happen.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I, think, then, we are actually in agreement with our views :)

Thanks for taking the time to clarify your earlier statement.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Hey, I'm heading back to Finland this coming Sunday, for another week of work and fun. This time I get a 3 hour layover in Switzerland! I can't wait! :D

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Come and visit us if you happen to come to Ruoholahti.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I appreciate the invite, but I believe I'll be in Helsinki and Espoo the entire week.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Ruoholahti is a borrow of Helsinki. Here is where most of the core maemo team is based. In fact there are only two sensible ways to commute between Helsinki downtown and Espoo, one is going through Ruholahti and the other one is crossing Pitäjänmäki, where I live.

I other words: you have no excuse. :) After reading you so many times that we have to listen I can't wait this opportunity to actually listen to you. And to you knowing us a bit better as well.

You are invited for lunch and you can put the taxi as well at our expense if you wish. The run from Nokia House to Ruoholahti is less than 15 minutes. Book the time you prefer in our intranet. Sorry, you have no excuse. ;)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Okay, I'll give it a shot. Hopefully we can put a certain email exchange behind us first (I'm sure you've deduced my Nokia identity by now, right?). But really, you guys came in and went above and beyond the call of duty I feel (after initial resistance :p). I've been truly impressed with the improved communications, release of beta applications, etc. Now if we can just get reverse logistics fixed... ;) Not your domain I realize... but now it's mine!

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Deducing your identity was a difficult as connecting Texas with Dallas. :P Hey, I'm talking about a casual meeting. Actually I mentioned a lunch, that's all.