Educational 1:1
 

Hey guys,

We are currently looking to implement a 1:1 program in my school. What, in your opinion, is the best tablet to use for a program like this? We tried the NOVA 5000 and we may try the Nokia 770. Please keep in mind, the two most important things are price (it has to be "relatively" low) and a "tablet input style" (like a touch screen. no laptops.)

Thanks in advance,

Vinny

Re: Educational 1:1
 

OK, well-- No, wait, what's a "1:1 program" then?

Re: Educational 1:1
 

I was about to ask that as well :)

Re: Educational 1:1
 

I'm going to guess it's a "one computer per student" thing.

Re: Educational 1:1
 

The N770 is not a particularly securable device --- students will be able to tamper with it quite easily.

That said, a reflash brings it up to spec immediately, and the device itself is quite durable.

N800 is effectively the same, minus the durable part.

If you can tell us why you rejected the Nova 5000 (a device I'm not in the least familiar with :) I'm sure we can tell you if the N770/N800 meets your criteria.

Re: Educational 1:1
 

Alex, why do you say the N800 is (or is supposed to be) less durable than the 770? Apart the hard cover, I mean :rolleys:

I have them both now (N800 arrived one week ago, 770 will go in a couple of days) but I feel the N800 as solid as the 770 is, so I hope it will last for a loooong time!

Re: Educational 1:1
 

My objection to a 770 or 800 for kids would be its losability. If that isn't a problem somehow, the 770 or 800 would be fine. Is there a specific reason for the touch screen?

Re: Educational 1:1
 

Thanks for the feedback, everybody. Yes, 1:1 is each student getting a computer. The touch screen is so that students can annotate right on the screen. Example: A teacher can send a student a word document and the student can mark up the document and save it and their annotations. That was part of the problem with the NOVAs (which are still in the picture). The annotating tool was stand alone and all it would do is convert handwriting to text. There was no way to save the annotations in the document so they can be viewed later. Another thing I didn't like about the NOVA was that it was running CE and I had an extremely hard time finding usable software for it. They were also really slow (even the newest model). I am not to conerned about losability, cause that is more or less out of our hands. My end is to find a functional device that suits our needs, if the student loses it, they will be the one buying a new one.

Thanks

Re: Educational 1:1
 

I would be surprised if on-screen annotation is available on the 770. It's not on the N800. Word compatibility in general is a weak spot.

I suppose that you saw the recent articles claiming that giving kids computers didn't improve their academic performance? (whatever, it certainly must have improved their computer literacy!)

Re: Educational 1:1
 

On-screen annotation is pretty hacky....
I do it using Xournal, a nice drawing program that can load background images, but I convert my word documents to image files by opening them with open office and saving them as jpgs (or converting to .pdf and then to jpg).

Aside from this conversion silliness, it works pretty well, with nice highlighting feature, ellipse, rectangle, free draw, pen thickness, and color choice.

The editing of word documents is possible, but again, pretty hacky....
not like windows CE at all.

I teach junior high school, and use my N770/N800 for attendance, detention logs, and remote control of classroom media. The kids are in love with it.
They drool when I show them my extensive mame collection or ultimate doom...:p

dcarter

Honestly though, you'd need an extra few (dozens of) styluses for them kids though.:rolleyes:

Re: Educational 1:1
 

i'm still learning my device, but one would probably spend a whole day editing one document with the kiddies...

i can't imagine going from one to one, showing them what to do. plus managing sending and receiving files to everyone could be funky. possibly printing won't be straight forward either

Re: Educational 1:1
 

Documents could be shared easily if all students got a gmail account, and instructions
could be visual if you had a desktop computer hooked up to a lcd projector display
your n800 or n770 with vnc server on the nokia and vnc viewer on the desktop.

oh, and printing is impossible as of now.

dcarter

Re: Educational 1:1
 

We are talking about a high school now so instruction shouldn't be a problem. All of the teachers have Toshiba tablets and all of the rooms are equipped with wireless projectors. Students tend to pick up on things quicker than teachers, but the teachers are doing good, so I am assuming the students will do good. Every student in the school has an e-mail address at the school. so its like jdoe@school.k12.nj.us. That means file transfer won't be a problem.

Re: Educational 1:1
 

If price is a major issue, and you're not extremely worried about getting cutting edge stuff, have you considered getting second hand tablets for the sudents?

I just bought a Fujitsu Siemens st4120p tablet pc for only slightly more than the price of a new N800, and that included a leather pouch, an IR keyboard and docking station with CD-ROM. The seller acquired a batch of 50 from a Canadian tobacco company, refurbished them (including upping the RAM to 786 MB) and sold them on eBay. I'm sure there are companies out there that would like to sell their writeoffs directly to schools. Most sales reps got handed these tablets a few years ago and many of them have downgraded to laptops since.

Sure, it runs Windows, but if you're going to do anything serious with handwriting, you're (sadly) limited to Windows anyway. From what I've read, something like MyScript Notes might suit your software needs.

Re: Educational 1:1
 

The hard cover that covers the stylus slot. Drop the N800, and the camera and stylus will quite frequently fall out (at least for me ;) and in one notable case, the back came off.

My N770's hard case has some pretty severe battle damage --- just the metal, mind you --- which I can't imagine the N800 dealing with ;)


With regards to live annotations, erm, not so much. Word document compatibility is likely to improve over this summer, as AbiSource has picked up the N800, but I can't even begin to hazard precisely how far.

That said, PDFs work just fine, and I can name three open source / freeware Word->PDF converters off the top of my head. You wouldn't be able to get in-line annotation, however.

Re: Educational 1:1
 

Yes, the hard cover is the one thing I'll most miss of the 770. *But* (would you believe it? ;) ) mine had *never* been dropped over one year and two month in which I owned it.

Anyway, I really hope that a hard case will be produced for the N800, since the display is really too exposed; hope Noo8 (my N800) will never drop too :D

Re: Educational 1:1
 

And not having a lot of applications to run was mentioned as an objection to the other system. Well, there are lots of applications to run with the N800, but not compared to those using Windows, Macs or with full-fledged Linux systems.

I'm still bugged that there isn't a (decent) chess display program (the one given forces you to play against a computer, but what if you want to look at an Alekhine game? You can't.)

And there isn't a snazzy note-taker like kdissert or Tomboy or thebrain or some neat outliner program. The closest is Xournal, but it's not quite there from my point of view.

What I think is really cool for kids, is that the N800 could in many cases outhink a dumb adult on a laptop. It's like a PT boat against a destroyer! Most adults wouldn't realize how powerful this little toy is.

Re: Educational 1:1
 

I agree with all that's been said about annotation. I'm a college professor and we use Tablet PCs quite extensively -- students take notes with them, I lecture using them, we use them in labs, etc. Both the small screen and the limited annotation factor would deter me from using the N800 in class.

Usage of the N800 would be application driven. There are many experiments and projects that could be done quite nicely with an N800. However, that would impress me as requiring quite a bit a application development. This is perhaps something to beware of: there is little educational software out for a small, form-factor Linux platform.

And, for me, note taking, proof reading, and annotating just are not among those applications.

-F

Re: Educational 1:1
 

Karel, I had looked at used and refurbished tablets. There are two problems we can think of, 1) we really can't guarantee the quality of the product we would, and 2) we would need a lot. A lot meaning about four thousand. Keep the ideas coming. The more feedback the better. Thanks everybody. You rock!

Re: Educational 1:1
 

1) Yes, quality control is indeed a problem on the second hand market, but:

2) Yikes! four freakin' thousand! Just go directly to some Chinese manufacturer, he'll do you a sweet deal.

Re: Educational 1:1
 

Yeah, we can usually get some discount when we give them that figure. Haha.

Re: Educational 1:1
 

We have a one to one initiative at one of our middle schools. Each of the 6th graders got a macbook, so did their teachers. Let me tell you, whatever you get, plan on getting about 20 to 30 hot spares. They beat the crap out of them. The students are pretty hard on them too! I've seen them with broken screens, busted usb ports, cool-aid spilled in them. Too bad they cost so much, but I'd recommend toughbooks.

Re: Educational 1:1
 

I'd recommend swapping the kids... :cool:

Re: Educational 1:1
 

So do you guys think its a yes or a no, should we buy a few to pilot?

Re: Educational 1:1
 

I'd say a resounding no - even if money is no object.

Sorry to pour cold water, Vinny, but I'd skip on the Nokias as an option for 1:1. I do db support, server management, and app development for a medium (16,000) student school district. I don't spend as much time as I used to doing direct student support, but I feel like I'm still well in touch.

I got a pair -- one of each of the 770 & 800 -- to test for a web app deploy for admins... While I'm in love with 'em, we're moving to a Windows Mobile device. The admins found 'usability' issues with the Nokia tablets. And that was for apps I was tuning for the platform...

For students? No way. No word processor. No powerpoint. Regardlless of my personal patience level, opera isn't IE... And the lack of a PDF viewer that can read "locked" pdfs is going to keep you from most electronic textbooks.

There's an even longer list, but the 15 minutes it's taken me to key this message is another example.

The programs that come with your textbooks will probably only run on windows... or the vendor web sites that won't be quite right... And, yes, eventually more web sites will welcome non MS bowsers, but we can't force it to happen overnight.

I know you said 'no laptops'... but that's really the only solution i'd seriously look at. I've got a Fourier Nova 5000 demo unit... I'd consider it, but it's heavy, doesn't seem to have good battery life, and looks very elementary school.

10 years from now, I might look at a linux tablet... but for now, you'll be wasting time and money on anything but Windows for an educational 1:1 project in the US. If - and its a big if - the 100 dollar laptop project succeeds, we may see apps for an educational environment on linux, but the big boys will still focus on windows.

oh .. almost failed to mention the risks of putting web cams in students hands... bathroom , behind the coke machine, exam questions... a nightmare waiting to happen.

I'd recommend the Nokia 800 in a heartbeat to a friend... but not to a school for student use.

Sorry, and good luck!

Re: Educational 1:1
 

Good point, AlCrosby. I never thought about the webcam issue. Does anyone have any other ideas about what type of computer to use? Besides the Nokias, that is. And as for the NOVAs, they say they're coming out with an 8 hour battery soon. Contact me if you want my experiences with them.

Re: Educational 1:1
 

I don't know what you're talking about with only Windows for schools. Our district is 95% Mac, 4.5% Windows, and the rest Linux. That's 33 schools, and around 20,000 students and staff.

Re: Educational 1:1
 

Well, Apples have Inkwell, but no tablets (unless you count the homebrew or hideously expensive aftermarket solutions), so they kinda drop out of the OP's initial specs.

Re: Educational 1:1
 

Yea, I guess that's true. Missed that part. Most people can type faster than write, even most middle school kids. As much as I like the tablet idea, I can't see anyone seriously using one for "Office" style apps.

Re: Educational 1:1
 

I used to write stories on my Newton MessagePad, and use it for a whole year to take minutes of meetings almost dayly (actually finishing before "the other guy"; the one with the fancy-schmancy laptop).

Of course I can type faster than I write (I'm a touch-typist), but
a) one doesn't always have room to plunk down an entire notebook and
b) I find that handwriting keeps me "closer" to the material.

For students, the latter point might be important. Back when I was still a student (thirty years ago), I experimented with typing out class notes, compared to writing them out and I found that the handwritten material inserted itself better into my brains. Pretty subjective, I agree, but I can't be that unique.

Can I? :rolleyes:

Re: Educational 1:1
 

Hahaha! Neither of my Newtons could decipher my hand writing. I'd just plunk down the keyboard and if anybody said anything I'd just give them the "what?" stare. I haven't had the chance to play around with the new tablet pc's. Hopefully the HWR has gotten better, though I'm pretty sure it's still based on the stuff developed for the Newton. Too bad they don't make affordable rugged tablets.

Re: Educational 1:1
 

I so don't get this "Newtons cannot recognize handwriting" thing. I have 2 MessagePads, both 2100 models; I write in cursive exclusively, both in English and in Dutch (I added Dutch dictionaries from Paul Guyot's site) and I get 99%+ correct recognition in English and about 99% in Dutch. This means that I only ever so often get a word with an error in it; and I repeat: that's with ParaGraph, the so-called "bad", cursive recognizer of the Newton. I used to meet other "newtoneers" and they had similar experiences; the trick with HWR seems to be the same as how to get humans to read handwriting: the neater it is, the better it can be read.

On my tablet I use the multilingual version of PenOffice, which barely ever makes a mistake. The HWR engine of PenOffice is the same ParaGraph as the Newton's; if anything, it's got better (the problem with PenOffice is that it is trying to do its work in a crappy operating system that has the mouse paradigm bolted on so tight it makes pen operations needlessly difficult).

Re: Educational 1:1
 

Let's just say, I started off life as a lefty. My step-mom couldn't figure out how to teach me to write left handed, so she forced me to be a righty. I moved back in with my mom and she said I could wright with whatever hand I felt comfortable with. So now I can write with either hand, but it's really crappy looking no matter which one I use. :rolleyes: Thank god for check cards, cause no one could read my hand written checks. :D


On a side, my palm with it's input method works pretty good for text input.

Re: Educational 1:1
 

I think a clear and consistent handwriting is an immense help for the Newton's HWR. Have you ever tried to switch to "Rosetta", the printed recognizer? It's reputedly a lot better with bad handwriting (there are rumours that there's a spot of neural netting inside Rosetta), but you have to print your letters.

Well yes. That's because Palm's Graffiti forces you to adapt to the computer, instead of the other way round. Did you know that Graffiti was originally developed for the Original MessagePads, mainly because newton's first stab at HWR was so horribly bad?

Re: Educational 1:1
 

Sure did. I'd love to see a color Newton. Too bad Jobs killed off the division.