Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

This made my morning :)

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

the rant is about author getting the money but app not getting released. how can you justify that? it would be polite to at least announce something if the app is not released.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

@twaelti:
The problem is not so much that the author wants to get paid, its that he released it under GPL, had people work on it under that license(so its not entirely his code anymore), and then wants to get paid for it by changing the license. He's free to take his own code, change the licence and do what he wants with it... But he'd have to redo the work of the other devs, or get them to agree to the change(which is what he's trying and failing to do)

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't he just sell it on the OVI store -as- gpl? The only issue is that someone who bought it could turn around and give it away for free... But he'd still be able to make something - It would end up being an "enforced donation" type situation.
And yes, there would be some people who would give it away for free... But that happens anyway, no matter the license.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

I would have given several thanks for this post if I could.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now, Fabien is the lead developer, and I thank him deeply for releasing Stellarium free and open-source under GPL.

Fabien thinks that the difference between Stellarium and Stellarium Mobile is so large that he could make Stellarium Mobile closed source and require payments for it.

I'm glad he cannot change the license, whatever the reason... And I'm sorry he spends time creating negative reactions around him.

I understand that end-user support, bug fixes, et cetera can be time-consuming... But nobody requires them! Just be kind, and when you improve software for yourself in your free time, share it with others. Otherwise, somebody is going to take the source code and improve it himself, whatever you think about it.

Now, please, Fabien, react and announce your decision. While people still remember about existence of Stellarium Mobile.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

The author not releasing the app is just a lose-lose situation for him and the users. I, for instance, don't care about what license the app is under, if it's good I will donate/buy, simple as that.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

Making this into a Fabien hunt isn't really productive. There are far too many unknowns to lay the blame there, and without further information, the biggest failure seems to be Nokia's simply because of contest execution. Nokia may still be in a position to remedy the situation, but again there is too much uncertainty to know if they screwed up so badly as to not require source code for GPL entries.

The hope was that the council would contact Nokia about the situation and get some answers.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

You're missing the point. - If it's your application and you originally released it under the GPL, you are of course free to change its licensing at any time.

But from the information we have, it's not his application alone. There were others who contributed to this open source project. You cannot accept free (as in beer and in freedom) code from co-developers, then re-license and sell it your your own benefit. Had I ever contributed to the application, I'd strongly oppose such a suggestion.

Which makes me wonder:
If it's true that it's GPLed free software and if it's true that others contributed - why don't they have the sources and release the application to extras-devel? That's the whole point of free software, isn't it? Nobody can prevent you from sharing it.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

No one minds paying, who has actually said they won't pay? The problem is a) he's won 12.5k already, which is way more than the majority of developers could ever hope to expect and b) he's holding it up.
D-Livil and nicolai and MuhammadAG have arguably done most for developing the N900's potential, yet they're not *****ing they aren't getting paid, and their apps are free. A lot of us donate to them for their efforts and as it's a donation, we voluntarily do so and don't complain about it. I think the Maemo community is, by and large, very rewarding and full of generous people.

The problem here is substantial money has already been awarded for an app. The developer is asking for exceptions from other developers and is halting the release because he wants more money. That's just frankly not fair - it's not fair on the other developers on the project, it's not fair on the other developers of separate apps who worked hard and released them and got nothing in return, and it's not fair on the end-users who are stuck waiting for a fantastic app.

I give full credit to Fabien for developing Stellarium, but that doesn't excuse the sheer level of dickery that is being displayed by halting its release on the basis of a lack of money. $12k might be 2 months salary to Western developers, but it's also over 6 months salary for many other workers, and it sure isn't bad for a project. Hell, if developing is a hobby, like it is to most, then there should be no "expectation" of payment; as stated, many will donate to it, but it isn't a "job" as such. Think of all the time people put into learning an instrument or building model airplanes or whatever other hobbies they take up, they do so for passion of the project and any monetary rewards are a bonus.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

Did Fabien write the original Stellarium, or just alter the original to make it more mobile friendly ?

If he did the latter, then can't someone else take up the mantle and code a mobile friendly version and release it

I would pay that person for a copy

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

BINGO!



...or at least do what Gates did when he wanted to make some money off of QDOS.

It sounds like parts of it are GPL and that's what was in extras-devel and not his changes.

Offer each of these other code contributors a token amount of that prize money in exchange for a quit claim. Then offer it for sale. :)

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

Is this not one of the occasions we could ask the Maemo Community to find out what's going on and if/how it can be solved? If it's that much of a big deal, let it go in the Ovi store for .99, that way Fabien can earn a bit more

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

I second that - Can the council help?

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

Who ported it to the iPhone, as its available for OS 4 on the iphone and it works quite well too, its one of the main apps I use on the N900 and have been waiting quite a while for a hildonized version

I third asking the council can they help on this too

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

This is not how things work. Fabien is not allowed to sell this program, since the authors of this program only allowed him to distribute their work under the terms of the GPL.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

The GPL doesn't prevent anyone from selling an application.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

nope but in order to really get money instead of first one buying it and recompiling and packaging it to extras he has to change the license...

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

Wow, what an impressive piece of software, the Maemo 5 mobile version must be spectacular. Anyway, if these guys aren't gonna cough up their code, this could be a fun Maemoization project for this community. This has just moved to the head of my low priority queue. :rolleyes:

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

It would be interesting though. If you sell a GPLed application for €0,90 or €2 in the store - would anyone find it worth the hassle to get hold of the sources, compile them, upload them to extras? keep them up to date as the original application evolves?

Also it would be even more interesting to see how the Ovi Store compares to Extras in attracting end users. Having the same application on both platforms, which one will consumers download from?

I'd try just that. It's the ideal setting. This guy already got more money for his work than he'll probably ever earn from selling it in the Ovi Store. If anyone can afford to try and sell GPLed software, it's him.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

We have no idea of knowing if it is spectacular or not as it hasnt been released to use mere mortals :rolleyes:

Its my main app that I use outside of texts, then wireless tools and iperf etc

On the rare occasion I use it as a phone, but it wasnt the primary reason for me getting the N900 or I would have just stuck with my old 6130 :D

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

If I'm correct (my knowledge of the GPL is shaky) there's also nothing stopping anyone else from packaging up an existing GPL application and selling it as long you also re-distribute the source.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

who said the SW must be released?

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

Nobody, but you can't re-distribute your application (besides internal use purposes) if it's GPLed without releasing the sources as well.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

Hi,

Seeing that I'm quoted here I'd like to correct the people who think it is 12,5K. It's 25K because the price money was USD 50.000 split in half because 2 projects won. http://www.callingallinnovators.com/ tells it all.

That site also says
.

So maybe, just maybe it realy is stuck in ovi limbo :)

Hope Fabian tells us soon what will happen with this app, because I would love to see it on my N900.

Michel

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

its now in the store http://store.ovi.com/content/51934
3 quid in UK

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

If there is GPLed code inside, the sources would also have to be released to those who bought it, don't they?

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

Someone would need to raise the issue with the council, perhaps by emailing council@maemo.org. We don't magically appear in threads which mention our name.

Yes, if there is code licensed under the GPL in there, people who receive the binary have a right to ask for the source. If he owns all the copyright for the code he's shipping, though, he could have relicensed those files for his own purposes.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

well.... that's something you could work on then :D


EDIT: uhm... just in case: this was meant as a joke à la "learn to fly with a magic carpet", not as a serious comment about council members reading each post.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

Good timing, that. I hope Nokia has got something in place to deal with the GPL responsibilities.

It's 100% realistic to expect a council member to get around to reading the Community forum of t.m.o. This is actually how we were told to communicate with you, so perhaps you should come to an agreement amongst yourselves on that point.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

Let's not turn this into a metathread - I raised the issue in the Council list.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

I downloaded it (it's an amazing piece of software btw) and checked what he put in the "about" box: It's still GPL, thank god. As far as I know, this doesn't force him to actively distribute the sources with the binary or make them available for download. He just mustn't refuse to send you the code if you ask for it.

Again, though: It's really great. Stunningly beautiful, a lot of options to customize your it, easy to use.... You'll never want to look at the real sky again. ;)

I think € 3,00 is a very fair price for this quality (given I paid € 0,90 for a lousy jpeg image today) and I hope Fabien sees a fair amount of downloads through the store, even if people could get it for free legally. That would be encouraging for those who don't want to give up open development, but don't mind earning a few cents if possible.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

If you downloaded it from the OVI store, shouldn't they make the source available?

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

If you send them an email and request the sources... probably. Again, they're not obliged to simply provide a download link, but you could argue that you got the binary from Nokia, not from Fabien. I don't see any practical value in trying to explain this to a Nokia customer service representative, but on the other hand: If you do, please publish their answer. I'm sure it must be fun. ;)

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

If the source does not accompany the binary, then every binary must come with a "written offer for the source, valid for any third party". Did you get such a written offer?

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

ouch. no. neither did i get the license itself. it just states it's gpl and links to the homepage.

now we can go into the dirty details here with stellarium mobile, but i wonder why we should. i just checked with and application i downloaded from maemo extras: no info about the licensing at all, no offer that i could get the sources anywhere, no further info about the gpl itself. still, as the application's garage project page tells me, it's meant to be gpl. and does, in fact, publish its sources. you just won't ever know if you download from extras using the application manager.

why am i telling this? because it's just absurd to have higher standards for software published on ovi than for the applications we find in extras. sure, it would help if people took the terms of the license more seriously (after all they chose the licensing themselves), and maybe it would be useful to set up a short check list for developers in the wiki to ensure just that. but really.... there is no reason at all to demand of stellarium what nobody ever demanded of an application in extras. enjoy the great application. there's nothing wrong with writing and publishing a great piece of software.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

The HAM not showing licenses (the repo, actually) is a known bug ('wontfix' for Fremantle but still, it's not 'invalid'). The QA process *should* look at licensing. The binary packages are stripped of docs automatically to conserve space so sometimes the licensing info falls prey to that. There is no separate download offer as the package management system automatically provides you with the sources (apt-get source myapp). But all this is (almost) irrelevant at this point - I just want to hear Fabien's side of the story.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

most probably something like "i'm still celebrating - thanks for all your support, keep downloading!"

that's would my side of the story would be right here and now.

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

how do you pay in the ovi store ?

And also once I have bought it, what happens if I reflash my phone in the future, will I still be able to re-install it without having to pay for it again ?

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

only with CC at least for a while

e: you can download the app at least 4 times (at least I managed to do it) or then copy a backup khrm /var/tmp/ khrm

(but if you send a backup of an app to your friend, I hope your and his N900 explodes...)

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

Hmm I dont have a CC :(

I have just been on the ovi web site in the hope that I could pay via paypal or some other means and then download or send the file to my N900 but all it does is send me a text

Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 

there are plans for carrier payments and stuff but it probably takes an year or more before you can start waiting for it.

e: the app is btw worth the price imo. it is at least one of the best apps available