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-   -   On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=63980)

*Sonic* 2010-10-22 18:00
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 848157)
there are plans for carrier payments and stuff but it probably takes an year or more before you can start waiting for it.

e: the app is btw worth the price imo. it is at least one of the best apps available
I know, if you see my previous posts its the most used app on my N900 so am more than happy to pay for it

Ive been to the main site but the download option doesnt work either, or hasnt been updated but im guessing it wont be now with it being in the ovi store :(

benny1967 2010-10-22 18:21
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
sonic: operator billing might already work in some countries. depends on carrier too, of course. check your account settings. (can't tell you where exactly, my operator doesn't support it.)

NvyUs 2010-10-22 18:30
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
My operator supports it on all my other nokia devices just not on N900 there's no option for op billing.

*Sonic* 2010-10-22 18:33
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Ive tried it from my N900 now and the only option is to add a credit card, no operator billing, I hope Fabien is reading this and can setup his download page using paypal or similar

Matan 2010-10-22 18:40
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 848092)
ouch. no. neither did i get the license itself. it just states it's gpl and links to the homepage.

now we can go into the dirty details here with stellarium mobile, but i wonder why we should. i just checked with and application i downloaded from maemo extras: no info about the licensing at all, no offer that i could get the sources anywhere, no further info about the gpl itself. still, as the application's garage project page tells me, it's meant to be gpl. and does, in fact, publish its sources. you just won't ever know if you download from extras using the application manager.

why am i telling this? because it's just absurd to have higher standards for software published on ovi than for the applications we find in extras. sure, it would help if people took the terms of the license more seriously (after all they chose the licensing themselves), and maybe it would be useful to set up a short check list for developers in the wiki to ensure just that. but really.... there is no reason at all to demand of stellarium what nobody ever demanded of an application in extras. enjoy the great application. there's nothing wrong with writing and publishing a great piece of software.
You are mistaken here.

There is no problem with extras - the source is available for download together with the binaries. The extras repository has a source directory and the source for every package (in the free section) is downloadable. Ovi does not have a source repository, and its packages do not include the source, so the only way it can comply with the GPL is by providing a written offer, which as you noted, they do not.

fnordianslip 2010-10-22 18:47
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
I have purchased Stellarium Mobile from the Ovi Store and have requested the source from them. I purchased it primarily so I could confirm for myself that it did claim to be released under the GPL, plus it looked cool. I haven't mentioned the fact that I have purchased it in my message to Ovi Store support though, as the fact doesn't seem pertinent.

fnordianslip 2010-10-22 18:49
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matan (Post 848063)
If the source does not accompany the binary, then every binary must come with a "written offer for the source, valid for any third party". Did you get such a written offer?
I got no such offer, so they would seem to be in breach of GPL already regardless of whether or not they provide the source to me.

iDont 2010-10-22 18:53
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
The app didn't show up in the dutch OVI store. However, clicking the link from post #64 and then on the button to send it to my cellphone worked. It's a great app :)

I'm curious though how this licensing story will end.

-iDont

YoDude 2010-10-22 19:41
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Dang! We are a whiny bunch (myself included). :D
...and didn't let up until the thing was made available too. :p

I just downloaded this and It is good!
BTW, in all the time it has been available to me, this was my first purchase from OVI store. Nothing that came before had been so compelling. :)

They got my cherry and I now have a C/C tied to my OVI account. Future impulse purchases are only a few clicks away. :eek:

***

So... if my OVI store use case is typical and others find having Stellarium on their N900's just as compelling, then Nokia will get some value out of this contest.

As far as the winner snagging me as a future contributor to the OVI revenue stream by bringing me quality software worth the effort of using a credit card, the contest was a success.

This app is good. :)

Creamy Goodness 2010-10-22 19:52
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
cool, it's about damn time.

benny1967 2010-10-22 20:13
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matan (Post 848183)
You are mistaken here.

There is no problem with extras - the source is available for download together with the binaries. The extras repository has a source directory and the source for every package (in the free section) is downloadable. Ovi does not have a source repository, and its packages do not include the source, so the only way it can comply with the GPL is by providing a written offer, which as you noted, they do not.
oh come on. assuming fabien gives you the source for his application, too, we have the source packages in extras and fabiens source. no difference there.

source packages don't appear magically; they're not shown in the application manager. you have to know that they're there and search for them. (extras has a non-free section, too. not everything you download from extras needs to be free software.)
a respective notice in the about-box is helpful. fabien at least gives users a hint... those who know what the gpl is and what it means. other applications lack such information. so how are they better?

fnordianslip 2010-10-22 20:24
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
The issue I'm curious about isn't anything Fabien has done or not done. The point is that Ovi is distributing GPL'd binaries without offering a means to get the source, which is AFAIK not kosher.

danramos 2010-10-22 20:34
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fnordianslip (Post 848249)
The issue I'm curious about isn't anything Fabien has done or not done. The point is that Ovi is distributing GPL'd binaries without offering a means to get the source, which is AFAIK not kosher.
http://www.softwarefreedom.org/services/

Wikiwide 2010-10-23 00:02
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 848241)
oh come on. assuming fabien gives you the source for his application, too, we have the source packages in extras and fabiens source. no difference there.
Maybe, Fabien will send source only to people who (EDIT: --bought the binary and-- buying the binary isn't necessary) specifically requested source. He has right to do so.

While source from extras is available to everybody, without requesting it from the developer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 848241)
source packages don't appear magically; they're not shown in the application manager. you have to know that they're there and search for them.
It's a shortcoming of application manager. With command line, it's equally easy to install an application and to get its source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 848241)
(extras has a non-free section, too. not everything you download from extras needs to be free software.)
I know. Batterygraph is non-free, for instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 848241)
a respective notice in the about-box is helpful. fabien at least gives users a hint... those who know what the gpl is and what it means.
Yes, stating license in About is a good practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 848241)
other applications lack such information. so how are they better?
QStarDict (free),
mstopwatch (free),
Sudoku Solver (???),
Simple Qt Editor (free),
phototranslator (free),
orrery (free),
FM Radio (free),
case (free),
PeQersi (free),
Faster Application Manager (free),
MyPaint (free),
Pen Pen (free),
mbarcode (free),
Front View (non-free),
metre (???),
modrana (free),
location test (non-free)
don't seem to state their licenses clearly either.

Irreco, swappolube, Stellarium, ShipsRolling state clearly their GPL license.

Yes, majority of applications don't state the license clearly. But it doesn't prevent you from getting the source, if you want to.

Matan 2010-10-23 00:10
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikiwide (Post 848361)
Maybe, Fabien will send source only to people who bought the binary and specifically requested source. He has right to do so.
If he is not the sole copyright holder, and it is GPL, then it is not his right to do so.

If he chose not to provide source with the binary, then he needs to provide source to any third party, not only to people who bought the binary. It is stated very clearly in the license, so I don't understand why you claim otherwise.

Texrat 2010-10-23 00:13
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flandry (Post 848021)
It's 100% realistic to expect a council member to get around to reading the Community forum of t.m.o. This is actually how we were told to communicate with you, so perhaps you should come to an agreement amongst yourselves on that point.
Yes, BUT not to embed a request in a thread. Post it in Ask the Council, or start a new thread with an obvious subject.

Wikiwide 2010-10-23 00:42
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matan (Post 848364)
If he is not the sole copyright holder, and it is GPL, then it is not his right to do so.

If he chose not to provide source with the binary, then he needs to provide source to any third party, not only to people who bought the binary.
Reading Wikipedia, I don't see where he needs to provide source to any third party, not only to people who bought the binary.

The fourth section for version 2 of the license and the seventh section of version 3 require that programs distributed as pre-compiled binaries are accompanied by a copy of the source code, a written offer to distribute the source code via the same mechanism as the pre-compiled binary or the written offer to obtain the source code that you got when you received the pre-compiled binary under the GPL. The second section of version 2 and the fifth section of version 3 also require giving "all recipients a copy of this License along with the Program". Version 3 of the license allows making the source code available in additional ways in fulfillment of the seventh section. These include downloading source code from an adjacent network server or by peer-to-peer transmission, provided that is how the compiled code was available and there are "clear directions" on where to find the source code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matan (Post 848364)
It is stated very clearly in the license, so I don't understand why you claim otherwise.
Could you give me the quote, please? Most likely, I'm inattentive, but I haven't noticed it anywhere.

geneven 2010-10-23 01:36
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaffa (Post 848015)
Someone would need to raise the issue with the council, perhaps by emailing council@maemo.org. We don't magically appear in threads which mention our name.
Right, and the default state of the council must be oblivion if they aren't aware of this issue.

But now that Stellarium is available in the store, I guess all is solved! Thanks to the council for its concern; it probably pulled some strings in order to make this happen. Or maybe the benefits of lying fallow have been demonstrated.

j.s 2010-10-23 01:37
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danramos (Post 848255)
Which, IIRC, has had some success in convincing GPL violators to comply with the GPL. There is also
http://gpl-violations.org/ which has had quite a few successes.

javispedro 2010-10-23 02:12
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikiwide (Post 848373)
Could you give me the quote, please? Most likely, I'm inattentive, but I haven't noticed it anywhere.
The relevant part of the license is:
Quote:
3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)
Emphasis mine. That should answer your question..

YoDude 2010-10-23 04:54
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by danramos (Post 848255)
You love to stir the pot don't you. :p

Has anybody asked for the source and been denied?
Has anybody contacted Fabien or Guillaume?

Does locating this source have more to do with compiling this ap without having to pay for it then it does with an interpretation of the license?

I don't know, but for $3 bucks I'm happy. :)

sony123 2010-10-23 05:10
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
It's an awesome app, miles better than the free Stellarium port.
Most importantly, it use GPS to automatically track your position.

I will take $3 as a reasonable donation for the author, which is the amount I donated to some other devs anyway.

danramos 2010-10-23 05:17
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by YoDude (Post 848444)
You love to stir the pot don't you. :p
Well, if I didn't it would appear some would have smoked it. I merely provided a resource for experienced GPL lawyers--folks with experience that might be able to more clearly explain this.

*Sonic* 2010-10-23 08:28
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Is the whole Stellarium Mobile gpl, or just the code that was originally gpl

or is the mobile changes gpl or not

benny1967 2010-10-23 10:11
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Sonic* (Post 848521)
Is the whole Stellarium Mobile gpl, or just the code that was originally gpl
license information is given for both parts, and both are gpl.

benny1967 2010-10-23 10:53
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matan (Post 848364)
If he chose not to provide source with the binary, then he needs to provide source to any third party, not only to people who bought the binary. It is stated very clearly in the license, so I don't understand why you claim otherwise.
even if it were stated in the license (which it wasn't last time i checked):

the license is the legal framework which is in place between the person who received the software and the one who distributes it. it describes rights and obligations for both of them. but it cannot possibly be legally binding between the distributor and somebody who did not receive the GPLed work. it's not the law. it's a treaty. it's valid and possible for the distributor to not give you the application at all, neither binary or source, because he doesn't like your face or your name. the GPL doesn't force anyone to give you anything. only after he gave you an application, and only if the application is GPLed, you have certain rights you may enforce in court if you want to. also, you can enforce those rights in case you *contributed* to stellarium under the terms of the GPL and now find the way the whole code is distributed breaks these terms.

for all others - those who didn't buy stellarium mobile and those who didn't contribute - the whole discussion is pointless. you can't be deprived of a right you haven't been granted in the first place.

fnordianslip 2010-10-23 10:59
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by YoDude (Post 848444)
You love to stir the pot don't you. :p

Has anybody asked for the source and been denied?
Has anybody contacted Fabien or Guillaume?

Does locating this source have more to do with compiling this ap without having to pay for it then it does with an interpretation of the license?

I don't know, but for $3 bucks I'm happy. :)
For £3 I'm happy too.

I've asked Ovi Store for the source, as the binaries were downloaded from their repo, but so far have received no response other than an auto-acknowledgement promising a response in 48 hours. I've bought the software in question, so I'm not motivated to get it for free, and have no intention of passing the source on to anyone else if and when Ovi Store provide it.

I'm curious to know why Ovi are apparently distributing GPL'd code without satisfying the licence conditions. Perhaps they believe that the Ovi Store T&Cs negate their GPL obligations. Perhaps they do. IANAL.

iDont 2010-10-23 10:59
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by YoDude (Post 848444)
I don't know, but for $3 bucks I'm happy. :)
$3? I've paid 3 euro for it! :p
Well worth the money though

Matan 2010-10-23 11:03
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
You are right in the fact that only the copyright owner who can sue in court in case of GPL violation.

But it is amazing that you managed to get a fact right.

The GPL did not require providing source to any third party, last time you read it? Really? Did you actually read it? Did you manage to get as far as paragraph 3b, quoted just a few posts upthread?

fnordianslip 2010-10-23 11:08
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
I think the licence page for Busybox gives a good comprehendable perspective on how those distributing GPL'd (v2 at least) code should behave, and how they should be fairly treated.

http://www.busybox.net/license.html

ysss 2010-10-23 11:38
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
I smell incredible amount of bias... resulting in an incredible amount of leniency toward the un-open natures exhibited by Nokia/Fabien.

Or should this be the normal level of tolerance we should show toward each other and our topics of choice? That would be nice too.

Master of Gizmo 2010-10-23 19:27
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richwhite (Post 845007)
A lot of us donate to them for their efforts and as it's a donation, we voluntarily do so and don't complain about it. I think the Maemo community is, by and large, very rewarding and full of generous people.
I don't know of a single Maemo developer (incl myself) who got more than around a hundred bucks donated in total for maemo apps.

Don't get me wrong, i don't do this for donations and i never expected to get a significant amount of them. But fact is: The donations you receive for over 100.000 downloads doesn't allow you to pay a single romantic dinner with your wife.

So don't tell anyone wanting to sell his app to go for donations instead. There basically are no donations in the maemo world. I received far more and bigger donations for my other far less popular projects.

attila77 2010-10-24 10:15
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
As weird as it may sound, the issue is deeper than 'just' licensing. It puts maemo.org Extras on collision course with Ovi (I can't emphasize how bad that is), and risk bad blood between Fabien/Stellarium project and the maemo/stellarium communities (which, reading back the thread has already happened to an extent). The 25.000$ donation/prize from Nokia is not helping clarify the issue, either.

benny1967 2010-10-24 11:06
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matan (Post 848570)
The GPL did not require providing source to any third party, last time you read it? Really? Did you actually read it? Did you manage to get as far as paragraph 3b, quoted just a few posts upthread?
I can only repeat myself, but I'm not sure if it's useful: The GPL could require that you stand on your head on times square and read the source code aloud while you eat cheeseburgers: it does not matter. none of the passers-by (in case you actually are on times square...) could request that you do it. There's no treaty between you and those people that would give them any right to ask that of you.

The person who could force you to stand on your head, eat the burger and read the source code aloud is the one you received the application from. He gave it to you under these terms and conditions. It's up to him to enforce them.

Those who actually received a copy of the application from you can enforce that you give them what the license grants them (like: full source), but they can't make you do things that don't affect their own rights (like: give the source to others).

So if we assume there's Fabien, Nokia (=Ovi Store) and some anonymous contributor (call him A.C.) who wrote GPLed code for Stellarium: A.C. can request of Fabien that he should offer to publish the sources to "any third party". The same is true vor Fabien vs Nokia. But I cannot request Nokia make the sources available to my neighbours and friends as "third parties". I can only ask Nokia customer service to send me the sources, knowing I'll have the right to distribute them afterwards.
(Same as with other parts of the GPL that the Ovi Store clearly violates, but nobody but Fabien and his co-authors can force them to do.)

Again, it all comes down to: Will Nokia distribute the sources upon request? We'll soon know. Meanwhile, we must give them the benefit of the doubt - even if it's Nokia.

fnordianslip 2010-10-24 11:27
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
I'm not sure you've got the hang of this yet. Let me try and clarify it further.

As I understand it, Ovi Store can't legally distribute GPLv2 binaries without providing the source or providing a written offer to provide the source.

If they provide the source directly to recipients of the binary, their obligations are fullfilled. If they don't then the written offer they must provide applies to anyone, not only recipients of the binary, and this applies for 3 years after they stop distributing the binary.

If they don't satisfy these obligations, then they have no licence to distribute the binaries. Ceasing distribution doesn't nullify their prior breach of copyright law though and still leaves them vulnerable.

The only people who can enforce the obligation by suing Ovi Store are any of the copyright holders of the GPL'd code.

It's also my understanding that the GPL (v2) provides only freedoms to me as a recipient of such code, not obligations unless I choose to distribute it or derivatives of it.

danramos 2010-10-24 12:30
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Just to help summarize: One is a matter of legality, the other is a matter of enforcement. I believe fnordianslip is trying to ask for clarify on the legality, not on the enforcement.

ysss 2010-10-24 13:10
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Sooooo... Is this the 'opensource' that's in everyone's mind when they publicly profess their FOSS love? When they scorn Google for their perversion of GPL?

danramos 2010-10-24 13:15
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
I give out candy scorn to kids on Halloween.

attila77 2010-10-24 18:03
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 849359)
(Same as with other parts of the GPL that the Ovi Store clearly violates, but nobody but Fabien and his co-authors can force them to do.)

Again, it all comes down to: Will Nokia distribute the sources upon request? We'll soon know. Meanwhile, we must give them the benefit of the doubt - even if it's Nokia.
IANAL, it's not their job (and they don't really violate anything) as the Ovi T&C pins any FOSS license compliancy very specifically to the publisher:

Code:
16. Open Source Software

If Your Content includes any Open Source Software, You warrant that You comply with all applicable Open Source Software license terms. Furthermore, You warrant that You will not use any Open Source Software in such a way that would cause the non-Open
Source Software portions of the Program, Ovi Store, or any other Nokia software or the software of any of Nokia’s billing providers or any network operators enabling or featuring Ovi Store to be subject to any Open Source Software license terms.

Matan 2010-10-24 18:54
Re: On the massive success of the Nokia Innovators contest at bringing us quality N900 software
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by attila77 (Post 849724)
IANAL, it's not their job (and they don't really violate anything) as the Ovi T&C pins any FOSS license compliancy very specifically to the publisher:

Code:
16. Open Source Software

If Your Content includes any Open Source Software, You warrant that You comply with all applicable Open Source Software license terms. Furthermore, You warrant that You will not use any Open Source Software in such a way that would cause the non-Open
Source Software portions of the Program, Ovi Store, or any other Nokia software or the software of any of Nokia’s billing providers or any network operators enabling or featuring Ovi Store to be subject to any Open Source Software license terms.
This is a good time to quote object:
Quote:
Originally Posted by object (Post 849396)
you don't know what you are talking about, thank you.


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