Re: Yay thanks a lot Nokia... NOT
 

keyword: backupstrategy or "nobody needs backup, everyone needs restore".

i cannot give you an indepth introduction into backupstrategies.
but short:

you have distribution dependend data and local data(you may distinguish further).
if you want to restore the distribution dependend data you restore it from the distribution server. just reinstall.
you can't however restore the local data from the distribution server. so that needs extra backup.

if you make an upgrade and don't like it: you do a roll back to the old version and reinstall the old software. you need no backup for that.

that of course only works if you have local and distribution dependend data strictly separate. otherwise you can't do the rollback.

edit: 2 examples:
1) take an adressbook application. now you have the app and all your adresses. if you have them separate you update or reinstall the aplication anytime and have all your adresses still in place. if you don't like the new version you just install the old version and you still have all the adresses.
if this is not possible for some reason(e.g. format of how adresses stored changed) the installer/updater should /ask/ you what to do and never ever just discard your adresses. further an update should be able to manage to import the old adresses(that by all means not deleting it without asking).
2)non distribution applications:
addon debs just need to be packed in a way to install to /usr/local instead of the main distribution. that way you keep a) the distribution sane and b) dont delete any addon software with an update. you /can/ offer addon "shops" that provide addon packages that are independend of the distribution.(the addon might work or not but this is no concern of the distribution.) and if an upgrade of the distribution breaks an addon it's up to you to handle that. but it's only the addon that is broken and not the dist and can be updated once there is a new version.

another note to addons: the package management works on a policy set by the maintainer of a package. so the maintainer can choose to hold back an update of an addon untill the distupgrade happens and have the update installed with the upgrade. on the other hand he can choose a policy to deinstall the addon if dependencies no longer met(the software wouldn't work anymore with an upgrade) and the addon would get deinstalled. in the latter case still the userdata(that is the adresses in the example) stay on the system as long as the user doesn't explicitly say he wants to have the whole thing purged, that means with a new version of the addon the adresses are there again even though the app was temporarily deinstalled for it was broken.
this and much more is what the packagemanagement is capable of.


[no this is not easy but this is what packaging and creating an distribution is all about.]

Re: Yay thanks a lot Nokia... NOT
 

Correct--now it's a matter of whether the developers of these applications are too lazy or aloof to bother to make them a bit less prone to permitting errors.

nandroid isn't a standard too, no. However, Android Market does make a similar back-up of your installed apps and settings on their remote servers for you as part of their market--thereby putting on the same footing as the Maemo back-up tool. And.. when you sign into Android Market on a new phone or a wiped phone, it immediately gives you the opportunity to begin restoration automatically. But, wouldn't you expect a better OS to do.. yanno.. better? Where's the progress?

Will it do full state images like nandroid?

Re: Yay thanks a lot Nokia... NOT
 

Hi,
see you miss my usecase and i think of many others.

- i do want to update. i do want all the brandnew stuff. i do want bugfixes and so on. i do not want the old outdated stuff.

- i want the button to click when an update is available-

- when i push the button i expect the update to work. i do not want to manually download and flash something.

- i do not want the updater get confused because i have some addons installed. i want to have the addons and the update still working. and addons workink as far as possible and some assistance if they don't work with the update anymore.

- after the update i want all the customizations i made manually to be still in place. e.g. my desktop background should be the way i had it. i want to have /all/ my customizations untouched.

- i want addons. i really want fancy addons maemo doesn't have and dosn't need to have- i do and i want to be able to have such addons on my phone. i want it without getting the update confused.

- thats more upstream wishlist: i want the second packagemanagement ring. i do not want that the updater tells me that an dist application can't be installed for it depends on an older library of the dist wich was replaced by a newer library of an addon. as user i don't want to fuss around with pinning. i has to work out of the box. i want to install my fancy addons and i want the distribution not disturbed in any way by it.


don't get me wrong: maemo does it right 98%. but it's the missing two percent that gives me a bad experience. my settings are gone - that is anoying even if other settings are in place like it should be.

backup is fine. but /i want the update working/ .

Re: Yay thanks a lot Nokia... NOT
 

It DOES work. Since I got my N900 in Nov 2009, I've done all upgrades OTA with absolutely NO problems. Nothing has been lost or changed in the process, everything stayed perfectly intact as before (except Titan's kernel-power, of course). No doubt 95% or more - who knows, maybe 99.9% - of N900 users have done the same. My device has never been flashed and runs great, stable and fast. I doubt I'll ever need to reflash the OS as long as I use it.

Now, if you've had problems with updating due to package conflicts or general software breakage, it's almost certainly because of something you did. Maybe it was software installed from the devel or even possibly the testing repositories. That's alpha and beta software. Maybe you did some other modifications also. It's not Nokia's fault or Maemo's fault or even the developer's fault if you can't deal with the risks involved doing this stuff. It's your fault for installing it.

Re: Yay thanks a lot Nokia... NOT
 

Thanks for What. haaaa!!!!
for keeping you waiting for nothing ( OFFFFF )

Re: Yay thanks a lot Nokia... NOT
 

sure. It was because of something i did! and i do want to do it. i want to customize the phone. the problem is that what i did was gone after the update! it should stay away from my customizations. i want them the way i had them.

don't say not possible: if an update on a server would override a serverconfiguration i don't want to see the uproar.

the second problem is that i /want/ to install addons without breaking the pakagemanagement!


-- as a sidenote: the pakagemanager and the multiinstall don't even know about each other ...

Re: Yay thanks a lot Nokia... NOT
 

Ahmmmm...Have you used linux before?

I´m not saying that all different linux distroes brake, but all desktop version of different linux distroes what I have had I have manged to brake just by installing stuff from devel repositories or outside of repositories.

Re: Yay thanks a lot Nokia... NOT
 

yes. for some decades. and i refer to lfs and /usr/local or /opt

on most servers you run a dist with customized configurations and additional software.

and please also note the wishlist item for a second ring(distinguishing between dist and addon software) but you can do it without that (install to /usr/local).

reference standard:
opt:
http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-...FTWAREPACKAGES

/usr/local
http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-...LOCALHIERARCHY

Re: Yay thanks a lot Nokia... NOT
 

I would rather they spend their time implementing new features, fix bugs etc first, before spending time hand holding people.

QED

With Maemo backup, your personal data stays personal. With Android market you're sending your personal data up into the cloud somewhere and have no idea who else have access to it and what they are doing with it.

And there you was complaining that Maemo backup required an internet connection to restore. Anyway you're confusing OS and backup tools.

Yes, that is why I mentioned, since that seemed to be the kind of backup you wanted.

Re: Yay thanks a lot Nokia... NOT
 

I have to admit that I do not completely understand whole structure of packagemanagement system, but what I have seen on my desktop and on my N900 is that I´m able to brake it just by installing stuff from testing, devel or outside of repositories. After all all applications are just bits and pieces of lego castle that you have just build. It collapses pretty easily if you are not careful. All responsibility is on 3rd party devels and most importantly on user.