Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

That doesn't sound like respect to me. If there is a genuine reason you can't donate (e.g. you don't have and can't get a paypal account) then fair enough, but don't say you can't afford it because it is not lke he set a minimum amount and you can't be that short of cash if you can afford an N900. There are other valid reasons for not donating, but your attitude comes across as not truly respecting him or his work.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

People with attitudes like that is why the rest of us can't have nice things. How excactly are you respecting the work if you think you're entitled to it for free? By spreading it further you are only cutting off the funding of the developer, making it less likely that they will spend more time further developing it. I don't know what you mean by your last statement "this is scene"; the warez scene does not share releases with outsiders, and encourages members to purchase the software after trying it. Even they show more respect than you.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Does this work with overclocking?
eg; http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...582#post595582

I had it installed, after installing these and doing kernel-config load ideal, the phone would just crash. I probably did something wrong along the way, ive reflashed since then.

Do they both work with eachother?
Also, how would I have it load.sh at startup?

EDIT::
Scrap that, apparently ideal crashes for me even before I install the drivers.
loading ulv works fine, though. Will I get any problems if I install the drivers following the readme still keeping the ulv kernel?

EDIT::
Got it working.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Fixed it myself. Ignore me (:

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

So if you could get away with shoplifting at a local store, even though you know the local shop owner will probably take a pretty big hit financially, you'd still do it? Would you tell others how to steal from that shop owner? That's "scene" too, for adolescent punks that wind up in juvenile detention.

Getting something for free isn't always the best way to do it. Not supporting something you enjoy, respect, or use is the best way to kill it, or at least see that item or service not have a long life and/or expansions. People rip off software and then wonder why years later there's not a sequel to it, or why the company went out of business when they had such a popular game. Mentalities of "scene" people like this are key reasons.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

You know the thread layout on this forum isn't exactly conducive to quickly locating a tree of replies to a particular question/comment within each topic. So save the drama for your moma.

Cheers!

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Is it possible to use these patches against the stock kernel? I am not too keen on installing using power kernel, since i have my own kernel which is very close to stock.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Big moral difference between the two. By shoplifting you are taking away something that the store legally owns. A better analogy would be if I walked into a store, looked over, say a toy car, then went home and made one just like it. There is no such thing as "stealing" software. Whoever wrote it still has it.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

I just donated 1€ (haven't gotten my link yet, but I ain't in a hurry). It might seem really low to some people but I can't help it; being unemployed for a good long time now I can hardly afford anything. Would like to donate more, but then again, if I could afford to just throw money away I'd donate to something a bit more meaningful, like children's hospitals. That is though not meant to derogate the OP's work in any way, it's great he does all this and I atleast am grateful for it :)

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Yeah, as long as you can modify the kernel config and can compile out-of-tree kernel modules (compat-wireless) it should be possible, but it will most likely never work with the stock kernel itself.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Fine! Then let's call it "Pirating"
There... A music to your ears eh? :rolleyes:

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Donated. Thanks for the updated driver.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Have these drivers been leaked?

BTW, if the drivers "leak" you arent actually breaking any law and the dev cant really do anything:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Still waiting for the download link.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

if you're waiting for too long and you are already allowed to obtain a copy, search this thread, people have posted direct links once or twice

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Law != respect
If the developer only has an option he would have made it a paid app. But he doesn't have any so he just asked for a donation instead. And the explanation you made was just the main reason why lxp doesn't take action on the leaked version. Maybe also the main reason why he doesn't provide any updates anymore.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

I knew not everyone was paying a lot of money when obtaining their own copies, but did the total amount of money donated really remained so bellow the expected amount that it made him give up? o.o

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

well, the driver is working, there's no bugs, not much for lxp to do now until the next kernel comes out. i'm not sure if it's going to be integerated or if he has to make his own version again. i would like to see one with uboot attached because this is preventing me from triple booting meego/maemo/android.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Actually, no. There's NO moral difference, it's still stealing. By pirating software, you are taking away something that the owner legally has: The right to sell his craft.

Suppose I walked into a book store with a hand scanner, picked up a book, scanned the whole thing in, and then left. Is that theft? They still have their original. What if I went into a store that had a machine that made thousands of some type of tool every day, then took one of those tools and walked out. They can easily make another, at almost no cost, so that's not stealing, right? What if I made a replicator, then walked into a museum and replicated all of Van Goghs works. Would the originals retain their value, as I stood outside making free identical replicas for everyone to take home with them?

Just because the result of a craft is a virtual item that can be easily replicated at little/no cost doesn't make it legal to steal it. Your "going home and making one just like it" analogy is also false, as it implies everyone is looking at his work, then going home and writing their own code to do something similar. That's not what's happening here. They're using his code, code he spend time and effort learning, working on, and debugging.

Imagine you spent time learning how to draw exceptional images, and took the time to draw a stunning work, expecting to be paid for it. Then your backer doesn't pay, and you realize you spent lots of time and money doing this, and can't make another without selling that piece. You agree to show it to people, and a few people show up, take high res pictures of it, and leave, paying nothing. They then distribute those photos all over the world, rendering your original pretty much worthless. When asked about it, they reply with "art should be free", or "I'm morally opposed to paying for beauty".

Isn't that stealing? How many other artists will take the time to make such images in the future? How likely is that artist to do anything art related in the future? How many beautiful pieces has the world missed out on because people were to cheap to spend a buck on a piece art?

The bottom line is this: The only way copying software, music, images, or anything digital is not stealing is if the person that put the effort into that product has specifically given permission to do so, or if it's so old that it's declared "public domain" for lack of ownership (like very old books or music). Trying to justify stealing by saying it's "scene" or that it's not really theft because the owner still has their original is bogus. It's wrong, technically, morally, and in most places legally.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Uh.. wrong. In fact, the rules around modules and plug-ins specifically (which this is) is still highly debated even in GPL legal circles, which is clearly indicated in the link above. Not to mention that even if it doesn't break a law where you are, the same may not be true in other places. In the US, it can vary from state to state, as some states consider GPL to be a license, while others consider it a contract. The laws on each can vary quite a bit.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Noone is stealing anything sheriff. Read this and understand it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

True. There is still one difference between stealing and pirating stuff: when you steal an object the original owner doesn't have it anymore and thus he has lost something physical and has a real quantifiable monetary loss.

But when you pirate something the original owner does not lose anything physical nor does the act incur any monetary loss directly. Even then, the only monetary loss the owner could be perceived to have suffered would be if you would buy that product otherwise if you couldn't pirate it. But if you wouldn't buy it anyway then there has been no monetary loss at all.

It's that latter part that for example MAFIAA always carefully avoids mentioning anywhere, instead claiming that every single pirated copy means a loss of sales.

Note that I am not pro-piracy, I am just pointing out the phallacy of your logics.

Well, the author of these patches has indeed given such permission: he is patching GPL licensed software and thus it all remains derived works. He cannot distribute binaries legally without also allowing access to the sources _for free_ or else he will be breaking copyright laws.

Thus distributing his work further is all perfectly legal. Claiming it's illegal simply because he requests donations simply isn't true: it is GPL-licensed and he must follow the rules laid out.

Now, I still do understand why he is asking for donations and personally ain't planning to distribute his works, but judging someone else who does it is also wrong; it is within their rights to do so.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Read the post before this... Just slapping GPL on something near it doesn't give people the right to take it. If that were true we wouldn't have an OVI store, since anything running on the N900 would technically be a "derivative work" and have to be free. If you don't understand that, then it's you that needs to read the link above.

Regardless, the end result is that attitudes like those stated are what kills future works for a product. When you have someone looking for minor compensation for something they spent a lot of time working on, only to be pissed on by cheapskates, it sours the chance of them continuing in that community. We could have gotten a skilled developer, with obvious experience. Instead we've pissed away that chance because a few people were too cheep to part with a Euro or two for something they're going to actually use quite a bit.

Why don't you go steal some music from your favorite band, and pirate some movies from producers you like? Kill the things you care about, instead of pissing in our cornflakes... Whiners.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Incorrect. Most libraries are LGPL, not GPL, and thus you are allowed to create closed-source applications which aren't GPL-licensed. It's only if the apps use GPL-code withing them, or a GPL-licensed library that would make the app itself also GPL. LGPL allows one to link to the library and still retain the original license.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Wrong. They do incur a loss, the money that you (and those you distribute it to later) would have paid for it.

Wrong again. The fact that you bothered to pirate it means you wanted it. It may be that the value you placed on it was different than what the author asked. But if you acquire it and use it, it clearly has value to you in the fact that you are using it! If you really wouldn't buy it anyway, then you wouldn't have it.

To say otherwise is attempting to alter reality by using twisted (and false) logic. Justifying it to yourself must make it easier to steal. Just like dehumanizing an enemy in combat makes it easier to shoot another human being. That doesn't make killing right, it only makes it easier.

My "logics" is not in any way sexual....

The only one using false logic here is you. If you acquire something without paying for it, that the author sought payment or royalty to use or enjoy, it's theft. Period.


Yes and no. Read the GPL some time. Like I stated before, if the GPL were that black and white there would be no OVI store, nor would there be an N900 for that matter. What he's doing is quite legal, and legally, he could take action against people using his software without paying for it. It would probably be too cost prohibitive to do however.

Even if he were to use GPL software as his base, on selling it, it doesn't give you the right to pirate it. At most it gives the owner of the GPL rights the right to sue him for using their product to create a derived work and charging for it. That's reality, not the twisted chain of thought you're trying to express here.

Again, read what I'm saying here. Even if what you're saying is 100% true, and the GPL bindings were so strict that he's forced to give it away for free (which it's not), or give you the right to pirate it (which it doesn;t). Burning this bridge costs more than you're getting for it. You've effectively driven away a competent developer for a "free" driver with no support and source code that you yourself probably couldn't patch or maintain if your life depended on it. Is that a win?

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

You'll note what we're talking about here is not an app. It's a module, that plugs into the kernel. Several such modules in the N900 kernel are closed source. Making a closed source module is quite legit. So, thanks for making my point for me.

Again, see the page linked to earlier (to Wikipedia). There are legal professionals, who debate things like this every day, and even they disagree over how the GPL applies to things like plugins and kernel modules. It's not clear cut, and there's 0 case law around any of it.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Having value doesn't mean you'd still buy it for the price the author is asking for it, you know.

There is nothing that would somehow magically turn all OVI store applications to GPL. Just because it runs on Linux doesn't mean it's GPL.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

You were the one claiming that all OVI Store apps would be GPL, not me.

Incorrect. Even NVIDIA doesn't produce a closed source kernel module, instead the module itself is perfectly open GPL-code. It simply loads a binary firmware blob once it's loaded and initialized into memory. Since that blob doesn't link to the kernel it doesn't have to be GPL.

The author of these mods however directly links to the kernel and thus it makes them GPL.

Go ahead and study NVIDIA kernel modules for a good, professional and proprietary example.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Yes, and acquiring it without paying for it is still theft, you know.

So you're saying it's ok to steal a Ferrari, since clearly they're overpriced and well above the value you'd place on it? Since they're asking too much, it's legit to just go take one? Wrong. And no twisted logical argument makes it right. Not for a car, not for music, and not for software.

And before I'm pegged as a Les Mis fan, I'm all about looking the other way if someone's stealing things they need to survive. A homeless person stealing a bit of bread, or a box to make a house out of, that's different. People need food and water and shelter. They don't need Word or Photoshop or an injection capable wifi driver.

You're trying to justifying theft for pleasure, not for need. Justifying it (I'd bet) to sooth your conscience for having digitally stolen material that you could have paid for, or done without, but stole because it was easier or more convenient.

As for the GPL thing, it's clearly something even people with legal degrees disagree about. Frankly, the point is moot now. The developer has already been burned, and probably won't be back. Given the chance to do work again like this, he'll probably either turn it down, or if he doesn't get paid for it will simply not release his changes. Either way, we lose.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Where the f*ck did I say anything like that, huh? Where, do show me? All I said was that you can't count every pirated copy as a loss of sales, I NEVER ONCE SAID IT'S OK TO PIRATE.

Next time learn to read before you start accusing people!

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

For someone so anti-piracy, you sure do justify it an awful lot....

You claimed "when you pirate something the original owner does not lost anything", which is simply not true.

Your logic is wrong. If you take something that someone else is selling, no matter what that is, and don't pay for it, the person(s) that created it have lost potential value. Even if that potential was a later "fire sale", or selling that version much later at a huge discount when newer/better products were out. You can buy Duke Nukem for $2 at most Big Lots, for example... Unless you pirated it back when it came out, in which case, why bother?

Using your logic, and your false assumptions, you could justify just about anything. Like taking _a_Ferrari_ is just fine, because they're asking more than someone else values it for.

Pirating is wrong. Justifying it is equally wrong. If piracy didn't cause financial loss, nobody would be concerned over it.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

*sigh*

Call me when you learn to read.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Actually i'd much rather "pirate" games, music etc and then give money directly to the artists than help enrich the *******s that steal more money from them than they would earn if all free copies out there were legally paid.



edit: and anyway, numbers can't be stolen. And regarding the 'rari, if you paid for the machinery and raw materials to build yourself your own fer' then how can you call that stealing?

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

I see, and how exactly do you do that? Have you heard of anyone who sent a check to an artist or band that they pirated music from, ever? Didn't think so. It sounds all nice an cozy to say "I'm not giving to the big conglomerates, but right to the artists", but it's quite another thing to actually do it. Some bands when they're small maybe you can do that with, by buying right from their site, or at an event they do a cover for. But any group that's semi-popular, you can't get to directly. Even their concerts have middle-men and vendors.

So, you don't want to give "Microsoft", the big company, money for their office suite. It's too expensive. Tell me, when you pirate it, how are you giving back to the engineers that get paid to code the program? When you pirate Photoshop, how are you supporting the secretary that arranges the lunch and learn sessions the engineers are going to, to learn new skills and get ideas for new tools? You're not.

Software at least has the advantage that it doesn't always get sucked in. Mom and pop shops can make it pretty big and still stay pretty small. But I'm willing to bet most people that have pirated versions of software have never paid for it, even if it's a small mom & pop that made it.

I bet you'd agree numbers can be stolen if the numbers were coming out of your bank account. You don't mind if I take those numbers, right? They're just numbers... They can't be stolen.

Are you ok with someone using your car for a long trip when you're not using it, as long as they provide gas? In the example I gave, you don't own the machine. You're just using it. You're not paying for the initial investment, nor are you paying to help maintain the machine. That's what's being stolen.

And tell me, how exactly are you "providing materials" when you take someone's program (without paying for it) and run it? Again, we're not talking about people writing their own driver after seeing a youttube demo of this one. They're using the exact code, not their own version.

Oh, trust me... I wouldn't be calling you in any case. I know how to read. It's you that has issues reading (and with logic, apparently). But then I'm not living in my parents basement still, or gorging myself on hohos. So there's more things we don't have in common...

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

LOL so the 'search this thread' link at the top of every page of every post is obviously too difficult for you to use?

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

That's what intellectual copyright is for.

A better analogy would be going to a museum that is free entry but with a suggested donation.
All the patrons in front of you are graciously giving a few £/$, you get to the window.. "What's this ... SUGGESTED DONATION?! ..... Well you can **** right off then", strolls in for free, looking like a complete dick!

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

That analogy alone deserves a donation :D

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

Not to wade into this forum flame-war but just a drop a few points to try to being some understanding and maybe some calm to the situation:

1) Please learn the difference between rivalrous goods vs. non-rivalrous goods. They fit in different economic spaces and misconstruing one for the other makes for some really dumb laws/calculations of loss/arguments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivalry_%28economics%29

2) Everything is based on something before it. Putting a value on a small evolutionary change is difficult and subjective. Some people think that since this is a small addition (module) to an already enormous code base (kernel) that the value is infinitesimally small. Some think because this addition enables some profound new functionality (wifi Monitor mode) that it is worth a lot to them. Both camps are probably right but have no right to force their views on each other.

3) No one is taking anyone's food out of their mouth by sharing GPLed software. If you don't want it shared, don't GPL it or base your software off of GPLed software (a difficult thing to do for a kernel module). That is all there is to it. The whole point of the GPL is to encourage sharing and ensure that things GPLed can't *stop* being shared and annoying everyone who has contributed to the code base in the past.

Being adequately compensated for writing GPLed software is a related but a mostly orthogonal issue.

I hope that the author works to get this code included in an upstream project (most-likely the power kernel ... I suspect the Nokia will ignore this completely for the official kernel).

I also hope that some company (Nokia/Broadcom/RedHat/Intel?) recognizes the talent it took to make this and hires the author.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

This debate on this is an old one. You're talking about the two as if they both form in a vacume, but in reality, that is not the case.

The biggest problem (and the one happening here) is that people don't take into account the labor taken to create "non-rivalrous" goods. Just because a good can be duplicated without "significant loss" to the original work doesn't mean that labor was not expended creating the original work. Labor that that author or creator should be compesated for in a manor of their choosing, by those willing to use the work.

With rivalrous goods, only a fraction of the price is the material used to make the good. A large portion of the price often is the labor involved, be that direct labor or indirect (eg. machine maintenance). Yet when the material used to make a good is virtual, or so cheep as to not register, for some reason people feel it's ok to duplicate without compensating for that initial labor.

If one lived in a utopia (like star trek) where artists get a stipend from the government to create non-rivalrious goods, then free duplication would be an acceptable thing. In most of the world however, even digitally duplicatable works have to be able to support the person(s) who put the labor in to initially create them. Non-rivalrous goods don't simply come into being on their own. They take time and effort to create initially. And if the author of a piece of work sets a value on that labor and seeks compensation for it, and others circumvent that by duplicating the piece without compensating the author, that's morally (and in many places criminally) wrong.

Yes, that's true, which is where the market comes into play. If you charge too much, nobody will buy, and you will be effectively forced to reduce your rates to sell. If you charge to little, you may not make back enough to continue the endeavor, or repay the initial investment.

The problem with piracy is that it is exactly one group forcing their views on the other. By stealing/duplicating/pirating goods (or converting them to a non-rivalrous form to duplicate) they are effectively forcing their view on the author that their labor is worth nothing, regardless of the price the author may want to set on those goods to compensate for the labor and time spent.

I'm sure it is until you're in a situation where you lack food, and took on work to improve GPL based code in exchange for compensation that then was not forthcoming. In that case, it is taking the food out of your mouth. That's the exact situation we're discussing here. Would you still consider it an orthogonal issue when it's your ability to have food that's in the balance?

One of the key reasons I'm sensitive on this subject is because what I do for a living focuses on creating what you would call "non-rivalrous" goods. But I can assure you, just because something is digital doesn't mean it has no value, nor does it mean there's no rivalry. That, and the fact that I like to eat and have a place to live, incites me to speak when others are justifying or advocating the the concept that creators of such goods don't deserve compensation.

I share these hopes, but know that in reality the odds of the later hope (him being employed because of his work here) is rather slim. Sadly, such things happen rarely enough that when it does happen it's pretty big news.

Re: [Announce] bleeding-edge wl1251 wifi driver for Maemo Fremantle
 

I use OpenOffice/LibreOffice and Gimp

If i have 123 dollars in my account, and then someone deposits or withdraws enough money on their account so they also got $123 in their account, that isn't stealing; if a department store sticks a pricetag on a product that says it costs $123, i still would have 123 dollars in my account, no stealing there either. Now if someone withdraws the money from my bank account without my authorization, you could call that stealing, but what they stole wasn't a number, what they stole was money. No one owns the number 123, same with any other number no matter how big.


what this has to do with anything?


You've paid for the machinery, and you've paid for the electricity etc.