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Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by slender (Post 952392)

If you didn't notice i pointed it out in my message and tried to underline it.

I was pointing out the quote refers to developers, not users. The quote was that those developers who like MS do so because of productivity. That is a pretty significant finding. Sure, people may be enthusiastic about linux, but some people are interested in other things.

I like linux, but I do find that it can involve a lot of frigging about - which is unproductive. I also find it frustrated that in some areas, documentation is poor. I tried to install the Maemo SDK on ubuntu. I followed the manual install to the letter - and yet the install process threw up loads of errors. So, in order to use this, I would need to go through the logs and work out what the errors were and what was throwing them up, then figure out what was wrong and needs fixing. Some people might enjoy that - I find it unproductive. When I set up my Debian again, I will have another go at setting it up - and QT as well - but, if I follow a procedure and it doesn't work, and there is no obvious way of resolving that without a lot of messing about... I can't be bothered really.

It is like MeeGo on the netbook or n900 - I'll look at it, and if I can try it without breaking anything I will do that. But if it doesn't work, or it looks like it will break something that works... I can't be bothered.

I have things that do work. I have installed several environments that don't involve a lot of messing about to get them to work - you follow the instructions and they work. If the documentation doesn't yield a working environment, it doesn't give me confidence about working with that system.

Now, somebody can say I don't understand - but if people cannot communicate the benefit of something, provide something that functions, or works after following the documentation - they are the ones with a problem, not me. Telling me I am ignorant doesn't really make it any better.

Mish.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwer (Post 952408)

Your misunderstanding lies in your assumption that TMO is here only for you, your own interests, your own needs... Imagine, TMO also hosts various developers who might be interested in, or even working on the MeeGo project, developers who, together with users and tinkerers, make the TMO be such a nice community and provide other users with goodies that keep making their devices even more awesome than they really are, dispite the total lack of interest from the manufacturer and sole beneficiary of the said devices. And then you go telling them that they are, basicaly, incompetent and that there has been no result of their efforts, even tho you seem not to know the first thing about MeeGo to be able to judge on whether the work done on it has merits or not.

TMO? A TLA that I know not. I see no result. I did not say that was incompetence - that is your interpretation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwer (Post 952408)

And you don't stop there, you go as far as collectively calling each and every developer unprofessional if they refuse to work in, or switch to environments they don't find worth the interest, or they don't find them to be 'the right tool for the job', or... By your standards a professional developer can be equated to a prostitute, and even most prostitutes will refuse their service if they find the client repulsive. What gives you the right to judge a whole group of people you know nothing about? Developers are not trained monkeys, they are human - they have their preferences, they have their opinions, they might even, god forbid, hold some ideals... Just because you can't seem to understand that doesn't make them any less professional.

That is not what I said. Ideals are fine - and people are free to maintain them. I have ideals. I don't get paid for having them. Sure, if people want to maintain an ideological position about software, I respect that - but if people don't want to pay for that, they either have to do it for nothing, or compromise their ideals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwer (Post 952408)

And lets not forget various users, non-developers here who might be interested in having the MeeGo project succeed and thus either give a life extension to their aging, abandoned by the manufacturer devices, or produce them a device in the future that fullfills their needs. If I put my user hat on, I have every interest in seeing MeeGo succeed and no interest at all in having a WP7-like world. If I wanted a WP7-like system, I wouldn't be typing this on my N900, I would've got the iPhone long time ago. As a user, not a developer!

It would have been nice - but I have more confidence in the Maemo community edition, and feel that would be a better place to invest energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwer (Post 952408)

And yet again you go about your egocentric point of view. The world does not revolve around you and whether you can understand and/or use something doesn't say anything about that 'something'. In the past several pages of this thread you've been doing nothing but bashing MeeGo without having a clue what MeeGo is - instead you're presenting your own misconceptions about it as a fact. You've been expressing the concern of an end-user, yet you not only fail to understand that different users need different things, you go as far as to claim that you know what a professional developer is and downright discard other people's work based on what you consider valuable.

Of course I am only interested in my perspective, as a user of the n900 - that is not egotistic, that is what is important to me. Not Intel's or Nokia's. Of course I know what a professional developer is - I spent a decade working in that environment, hands-on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwer (Post 952408)

I'm sorry, but each and every argument you're presenting here is flawed and self-centered, and repeating them in different wording borderlines with tautology.

I am glad to see that you have a rudimentary grasp of logic - it is not tautology, it is repeating myself. Whereas what I read from you is called 'argumentum ad hominem', which is a logical fallacy. When all you can do is attack the person, then you have lost the argument.

Mish.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mishmich (Post 952412)

.... but, if I follow a procedure and it doesn't work, and there is no obvious way of resolving that without a lot of messing about... I can't be bothered really..

I whole heartily agree with you. Things should work out of box. If they do not then everything depends on how much you have free time and how much you care&need it.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mishmich (Post 952424)

TMO? A TLA that I know not.

TMO=talk.maemo.org in this context.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelago (Post 952574)

TMO=talk.maemo.org in this context.

Thanks - Mish

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mishmich (Post 952412)

The way I see it, when things don't work, it reduces productivity.
Nowadays, you have to work pretty damn hard just to make things work, and on some systems, that work may be reduced tenfold.
The day an MS developer on average is more productive, is the day hell freezes over.
I've fixed so much broken code after MS-only developers, I can't even begin to describe it. Their mantra is: if you don't understand, ignore it.

Interestingly, MS-only developers, when using the same approach and writing unix C software, cause LESS damage. since there are more hurdles for doing stupid things, and it's easier to clean up after them.

Basically, it's all about the development model.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mishmich (Post 952412)

I like linux, but I do find that it can involve a lot of frigging about - which is unproductive. I also find it frustrated that in some areas, documentation is poor. I tried to install the Maemo SDK on ubuntu. I followed the manual install to the letter - and yet the install process threw up loads of errors. So, in order to use this, I would need to go through the logs and work out what the errors were and what was throwing them up, then figure out what was wrong and needs fixing. Some people might enjoy that - I find it unproductive. When I set up my Debian again, I will have another go at setting it up - and QT as well - but, if I follow a procedure and it doesn't work, and there is no obvious way of resolving that without a lot of messing about... I can't be bothered really.

From these lines I can already see that Linux is not for you, at least not yet, not until someone makes a whole lot more GUIs and help files.
Linux is for people who when encountering a huge amount of versatile parts, know what to do in order to build the most optimal solution for themselves or others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mishmich (Post 952412)

It is like MeeGo on the netbook or n900 - I'll look at it, and if I can try it without breaking anything I will do that. But if it doesn't work, or it looks like it will break something that works... I can't be bothered.

Meego is not for you yet, use something else for the time being.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mishmich (Post 952412)

I have things that do work. I have installed several environments that don't involve a lot of messing about to get them to work - you follow the instructions and they work. If the documentation doesn't yield a working environment, it doesn't give me confidence about working with that system.

I'm against the whole spoonfeeding/instructions business, software does not require very much manuals other than man files, and if it does, there's something wrong with it or the user.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mishmich (Post 952412)

Now, somebody can say I don't understand - but if people cannot communicate the benefit of something, provide something that functions, or works after following the documentation - they are the ones with a problem, not me. Telling me I am ignorant doesn't really make it any better.

Mish.

It's nobody elses job to communicate a good option to you, since it's only going to benefit you, you need to find it yourself.
The people who have that as a job, are communicating the diametrical opposite, ie. the worst possible option to you.

If you enter a discussion about the pros or cons of something, and haven't thoroughly looked at all the options, marketed or not, you will be seen as ignorant.
And it's pretty clear to me that you don't know very much about Maemo, Meego nor the aims and goals behind Linux.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

.... but, if I follow a procedure and it doesn't work, and there is no obvious way of resolving that without a lot of messing about... I can't be bothered really..

Quote:

Originally Posted by slender (Post 952428)

I whole heartily agree with you. Things should work out of box. If they do not then everything depends on how much you have free time and how much you care&need it.

If a procedure to resolve a problem is obvious, (as it typically is with many windows problems) the problem shouldn't have been there in the first place.
Unintended problems often have severely difficult solutions, or none.
Learn the workaround, fix it yourself, or just wait.

Some people even view choices as a problem, to them I can just say to go use nintendo.
Now a large amount of choices may present an issue if you don't know what you're doing.
But as said before, this is an unintended problem, and nothing can be done about it.

It all boils down to:
Each compromise takes you further away from your goal. And you only reach goal once you've eliminated all compromises.
So, a project often deviates from it's original plan only to find itself doing the exact same thing in the end, and each detour has cost them loads of time and money.

Trying to fix something which is unfixable is a compromise, same thing if you ignore something in design and software ends up with loads of small bugs.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funklord (Post 952864)

If you enter a discussion about the pros or cons of something, and haven't thoroughly looked at all the options, marketed or not, you will be seen as ignorant.
And it's pretty clear to me that you don't know very much about Maemo, Meego nor the aims and goals behind Linux.

You assume a lot.

I worked on UNIX for ten years, using the command line exclusively, writing shell scripts, etc - and cannot stand hacking (personally). If things are not documented, and do not work the way they are documented, they are not finished. And obviously I do not know much about Maemo or MeeGo - how would I with the sort of attitudes you express? It is one of the ironies about 'openness' that it is so obscure, that people seem to think that is a virtue.

Mish.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Can't be bothered to watch any videos. Can't be bothered to see if this has already been mentioned. So can some enlightened folk tell me has Nokia said they will be releasing an N950 this year or did my Nokia Blog dream it up?

http://mynokiablog.com/2011/02/22/vi...ge-1/#comments

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Nokia's stock continued to tank today and hit a 14 year low at €6.46.