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Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by zimon (Post 967165)

So you claim having transaction support in a package manager is no improvement ? And also you claim it is no practically any safer having GPG signatures in packages embedded than detached somewhere in the repository and lost by many in transfer? If so, then either you are not honest or you do not really seem to know much anything about C.S.

LSB wouldn't had made a standard about package manager, if it wouldn't be important. And Nokia's case is a very good example how expensive it can become when Linux fragmentation hits like it has in this case.

I give up, you've barely read anything that I've said. A few pages back I explained thoroughly why transactions are a stupid idea, and that deb files also have embedded gpg signatures, the only difference is that it's optional even posted a link on how to do it. And either way, it's not like any of these features would be deal-breaker.

And you keep going on about the LSB which nobody cares about except apparently you.
The LSB was a bunch of suits who all used redhat, how are they relevant to anything?

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Just adding to the news here...

Nokia gives its CEO RM20mil to offset lost Microsoft pay
WASHINGTON: The executive hired to turn around mobile phone maker Nokia is getting US$6.2mil (RM19.8mil) to make up for the paycheques he lost when he left Microsoft last fall.

Nokia CEO Stephen Elop received a payment of about US$3.2mil (RM10.2mil) last October, according to a filing on Friday with US regulators. He is due to receive another US$3mil (RM9.6mil) this October.

Elop also received about US$710,000 (RM2.27mil) to cover money he had to repay Microsoft and another US$435,000 (RM1.4mil) to reimburse him for legal fees related to his move from Microsoft.

Nokia, based in Finland, set Elop's first-year salary at US$1.46mil (RM4.7mil) and gave him other long-term incentives that included 500,000 stock options.

Elop joined Nokia Corp in September, ending a two-year stint at Microsoft Corp. He announced last month that Nokia's phones will switch to an operating system made by Microsoft in an attempt to revive the phone maker's fortunes.

Although it remains the world's leading mobile phone maker, Nokia has been losing market share to Apple Inc's iPhone and handsets relying on Google Inc's Android operating system. - AP

Re: More on MS/Nokia deal

Quote:

Originally Posted by danramos (Post 962838)

Don't worry about it, if it criticizes Nokia, it has a better chance of getting merged or deleted anyway. :)

I live for the day that this sort of silliness fades.

By that I mean the post, not the allegation.

Oh, and same applies to packaging religion wars. :rolleyes:

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Look What Windows Phone Engineering offer ideas on building the next great mobile software developer opportunity: http://www.forum.nokia.com/nokia-microsoft.xhtml

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funklord (Post 967186)

A few pages back I explained thoroughly why transactions are a stupid idea, and that deb files also have embedded gpg signatures, the only difference is that it's optional even posted a link on how to do it. And either way, it's not like any of these features would be deal-breaker.

And you keep going on about the LSB which nobody cares about except apparently you.
The LSB was a bunch of suits who all used redhat, how are they relevant to anything?

You are in denial-state obviously.

You say that transactions may not be good in mobile device because they take lots of resources? Really? What resources they take so much they cannot be used? You can google around studies done about transactions in databases, how important they are and why they are implemented.

I asked you to show where debsigs is actively routinely used. You didn't find anything because you didn't reply? Google finds lots of examples where deb-security policy clearly fails and where is wide open security hole.

Do you also think LinuxFoundation is not relevant to anything and noone cares about it? Don't you see, the thoughts and attitude like you have are exactly the reason why Linux is so fragmented?

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by zimon (Post 967357)

wut? Linux is'nt framented, are you on drugs? Linux is right here in one place.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by vi_ (Post 967361)

wut? Linux is'nt framented, are you on drugs? Linux is right here in one place.

Yes "it" is. See Nokia's troubles and delays with Meego. And Android.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmarone (Post 967131)

And on mine, Extras was present in the list but disabled.

The maemo.org extras repository was enabled by default in PR 1.1.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Under our new strategy, MeeGo becomes an opensource,
mobile platform project. Our
investment in MeeGo will emphasize longerterm
market exploration of nextgeneration
devices, platforms and user experiences. We plan to ship a MeeGobased
mobile product later
this year. If the market segment that we target with that mobile product does not materialize
as expected, or if we fail to develop nextgeneration
platforms, user experiences and mobile
products, we may incur operating losses and accordingly not realize a return on our
investment in this area.

Their intentions are clear.
We must support MeeGo (with or without nokia)

More, here : http://www.nokia.com/NOKIA_COM_1/Abo...orm20-f_10.pdf

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by zimon (Post 964731)

Roll back is not the only property which comes with transactions. Transactions makes package updates error tolerate. For example if battery goes dead middle of updating, or you drop your phone and battery flies off. When the system reboots, it can auto-correct the problem either finish the transaction or cancel it and tell the user that last action was not successful but it didn't broke anything at least. Or if some developer (maemo test and devel repos) forgets something and there is a dependency problem, after installation some other things are not working, user can rollback to the previous state and report the problem to the developer.

If the battery suddenly flies off (with no cap + interrupt-sync) you've got bigger problems with the filesystem to worry about than an update gone bad. You can always re-install the package(s) over the broken files, this process can also be automated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zimon (Post 964731)

Transactions is good to have in the package management, some people might think it is essential as the system state is pretty much like a critical database. Of course transactions feature can be disabled if there is good reasons, but I doubt in high end mobile phones there would be any. Anyway, rpm is in this way much better than deb, although in other technical ways they are pretty much identical.

You are wrong, file systems are a specific type of database that has worked very well for billions of people over decades. Dragging in concepts from the group-think of what sql is, isn't going to improve anything. The filesystem state is what it is, and the package manager doesn't see the whole picture, therefore "transactions" are a dangerous feature to have with little or no use.
Brain damage like this is what put people off from using RPM in the first place. The amount of times my systems used to get irrepairably damaged when I was using RPM-based systems in the past is horrifying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zimon (Post 964731)

I mean that in rpm-based systems nowadays it is a common practice to have all rpm-packages GPG-signed. GPG-signatures are embedded in the packages and do not get lost even if you transfer and install packages through ftp-program, wget, usb-stick, bluetooth OBEX transfer and so on and then install the package without alive connection to the original repository.

You can google lots of bad examples where people install un-authenticated deb-packages with dpkg -i. MITM attack on non-authenticated data (stream) is trivial if you have the skills.

That's why you check MD5/SHA1 on packages before installing, if you download them over an untrusted link.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zimon (Post 964731)

The kludged way to embed GPG signatures in the deb-packages is not really used by anyone or anywhere. Show me where debsigs would be actively and routinely used, like embedded GPG signatures are used almost without exceptions for example in Fedora? Also it is important that developers have a standardized way to embed the GPG signature to the package release automatically.

Kludged or not, if we needed it in Maemo, we could simply use it.
Actively used is irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zimon (Post 964731)

There are many good things in LSB. Without them Linux would be even more fragmented it already is. And as said, if Debian+Ubuntu would had changed to use rpm-system long ago, Nokia now wouldn't have the problem with its developers implementing rpm support to Ovi and Meego. A good case of fragmentation in Linux which clearly causes troubles.

You talk as if there'd be something wrong with fragmentation, or as someone else would put it, having more than one choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zimon (Post 964731)

Debian and Ubuntu (and some other smaller players) haven't just taken the fragmentation problem in Linux seriously enough, and now see, it costs Nokia lots of money and eventually may mean that Meego won't succeed because it was too late compared to Android.

No, more probably a major cause for the disruption in the schedule is the sudden decision to change to Meego, and preparations to change a package manager.
There's a reason distros don't do it, because almost all work needs to be redone.
Maemo was working fine, but needed some more dev-time which it never got, since everybody started to work on Meego.

No more strawmen please.