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Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chowdahhead (Post 943594)

It's open source under the GPL3, so if truly threatened, it could be forked by the QT community, like Openoffice. The problem is that QT would lose it's corporate sponsorship, so development won't likely be as active. But I don't think QT or KDE are at any risk at all from all of this.

I am not disappointed by Nokia's this decision. Moreover I am excited about it. I take it as Nokia adding 1 more OS to its family after Symbian, Qt, and MeeGo.

It would be interesting to see another OS (WP7) with Nokia and how it drives the competition in the market.
Looking forward to it guys. :)

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by slender (Post 949538)

Giving us _amaaaazing_ bing

It's so "amazing" that fails to index many sites indexed by google. Try to search for some really rare words and compare the results. Google usually will beat Bing by 2 times more results or so and much faster indexing.

And if you happen to create your own web site and then bother self with access logs analisys, you will see that Google learns about your site quickly and then re-indexing it on a regular basis. But hey, where you are, crawlers from bing? Looks like Google beats bing to the hell when it comes to infrastructure capable of indexing things anyhow quickly. And since web is a dynamic thing, bing really sucks. They're such a pathetic losers that Google even caught 'em copying their search results. It's obvious that you -> google search is faster than you -> bing -> google search, and it's unlikely that Bing "proxy" could be some privacy enhancement :D.

So, why I should use this third-rate service? Just because MS paid to Nokia? Hardly my fault - I do not want to use third-rate services just because Nokia wants this.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

I think the answer to Nokia's MeeGo decision lies in the past.

Will they continue the MeeGo push?

Look at what has come out of maemo the past 4+ years. Has the FOSS community utilized the device and further its content/capability in alignment with market's interest?

The answer is no. (general market acceptance, number of apps available in ovi, etc)

They will clearly see this as a bad investment.

MeeGo, is a different animal of course.. with Intel's involvement and whatnot. But Nokia is not part of it anymore... (are they?).

So I see this as Nokia saying that the MeeGo/maemo6 device will be the first and maybe last device, depending on how it performs.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Bing is the DEFAULT search. You can still surrender privacy to Google as opposed to Nokia or Microsoft. How would it look if Android used Bing? It's their engine and it's only fair it uses it. What vote of confidence would it be for WP to gave default Google?

And, personally, I use both because Google has larger idexes, but Bing doesn't disallow my use as a scraper.

Why do people feel the need to separate in red and blue teams and kick each other? Why one or the other? Why not the best of both worlds?

And why insist in calling other's choice third rate? Did it ever occur toy you that other people's needs could be different? It has downsides and upsides. If it didn't, you's be crying it was a poor copy and they work together and they stole the indexes and and and. Oh wait.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ysss (Post 949681)

Look at what has come out of maemo the past 4+ years.

5+ going on 6. The project opened its doors on May 2005 and devices started selling in November 2005.

Quote:

Has the FOSS community utilized the device and further its content/capability in alignment with market's interest?

What on earth does "market's interest" mean? But yes, the FOSS community has absolutely furthered the content and capability of Maemo devices.

Quote:

The answer is no. (general market acceptance

The FOSS community isn't responsible for vendors' marketing.

Quote:

number of apps available in ovi, etc)

The FOSS community doesn't publish on Ovi, for many good reasons. Besides, Ovi didn't even accept Maemo apps until last year.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

This is an interesting read, even though it cannot be verified:

http://www.knowyourmobile.com/blog/7..._products.html

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rash.m2k (Post 949720)

This is an interesting read, even though it cannot be verified:

http://www.knowyourmobile.com/blog/7..._products.html

Not surprising. I just hope that the upcoming Meego device has a keeboard and an FM transmiter. I have really enjoyed those features from my N900.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

I just read an article on a Dutch newssite that Windows won't allow open-source software in their app store for Windows Phone 7 (Dutch article: http://webwereld.nl/nieuws/105763/op...s-phone-7.html).

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funklord (Post 949425)

Even if MS would take upon themselves to do something about it, a windows system includes much LESS software than a typical linux distro does.

Simple, just update visual studio to have a compile to Arm option ;)

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 949433)

Windows Phone 7 also runs on ARM.

Windows doesn't run on anything. It just waddles at best. ;)

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

"The source said the UI was much better than previous devices and it's a shame they will never come to market.
The tipster stressed that the planned flagship product was one of the best they'd seen."
why? why???:(:(

http://www.knowyourmobile.com/blog/7..._products.html

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gruik (Post 949782)

Why? Because M$ was scared to death of the potential of MeeGo/Qt and was determined to spend or do whatever it took to put a stop to it.

To M$ Linux will always be a disease that must be eradicated.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by nocain (Post 949429)

I still don't see why anyone but a die hard nokia fan would buy a symbian device given that it is to be abandoned.

You got it backward.

I bet a big chunk of Nokia 'fanbase' are those who are loyal to the Nokia brand but couldn't care less of what OS it's running.

They like Nokia's design, build quality, interface.

That's why Nokia is king in candybar and featurephones, where 'smartphone' features are less of a priority. That's why they're seeing their smartphone marketshare is quickly decreasing.

And I bet they're also seeing a huge shift in price/cost/consumer preference from basic phones to smartphones (at varying price point), thus the exodus to WP7.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by lma (Post 949718)

5+ going on 6. The project opened its doors on May 2005 and devices started selling in November 2005.

I appreciate the correction.

Quote:

What on earth does "market's interest" mean? But yes, the FOSS community has absolutely furthered the content and capability of Maemo devices.

It means creating something sellable.

Quote:

The FOSS community isn't responsible for vendors' marketing.

That is correct. But the FOSS community has a very big impact on the NIT series. At the very least, it has more access/control/contrib over the project compared to other closed/proprietary platforms.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by redman (Post 949761)

I just read an article on a Dutch newssite that Windows won't allow open-source software in their app store for Windows Phone 7 (Dutch article: http://webwereld.nl/nieuws/105763/op...s-phone-7.html).

Nicht verboten... just GPLv3 - read this auf Englisch to explain more.

Edit: Upon reading that again, it seems like they are heavily going after what we'd call open source indeed. Damn that's a bad move.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kureyon (Post 949779)

Windows doesn't run on anything. It just waddles at best.

Power walk perhaps?

If I didn't need 3D Studio Max (Windows only), Photoshop (I use it on OS X too), After Effects (OS X also) I'd drop Windows fully. Can't do that yet though. Yet to move to Maya fully, or Modo, Flash CS5 is faster on Windows than Mac and there's no Adobe Flex/Flash Builder with debugging on Linux.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 949832)

Edit: Upon reading that again, it seems like they are heavily going after what we'd call open source indeed. Damn that's a bad move.

Indeed.. not only GPLv3, also v2:

Quote:

... as well as any others that force coders to include the license with a distribution of the product ...

And that means a ban on open/free software :(

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

maybe nokia would give us access to the closed source coded areas of our n900. a parting gift if you will. we can be elops open source ecosystem. his dirty little secret from M$. :D:D:D

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ysss (Post 949820)

It means creating something sellable.

Well, Nokia always said that sales were greatly exceeding their expectations. Apparently they never intended these devices to be commercially successful, but people bought them and loved them anyway.

Quote:

That is correct. But the FOSS community has a very big impact on the NIT series. At the very least, it has more access/control/contrib over the project compared to other closed/proprietary platforms.

In theory maybe, in practice you need a willing upstream in order to contribute effectively. Patches getting ignored or, if you're lucky, getting accepted but only for the next device doesn't exactly encourage participation.

Still, we now have CSSUs for 4 out of 5 Maemo devices so if you want to scratch an itch on an open component you can :-)

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 949433)

Don't make me link to that damn video again. It shows Windows 7, you know the desktop variety, recompiled to run on ARM.

That's fine and all, but what apps are there for it? Is Office running on ARM? Any third-party apps? If not, having Windows there is not very relevant to anything.

I think this is what the OP was saying. Linux on ARM has nearly the same set of apps that Linux on x86 has, except for the commercial stuff which is only a small part of the set that most people use. It is the opposite in Windows land.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 949433)

Don't make me link to that damn video again. It shows Windows 7, you know the desktop variety, recompiled to run on ARM.

Windows Phone 7 also runs on ARM.

You quite simply don't know what you're talking about. Years? They compiled that and said so in months. Better programmers... ok. No comment there.

But still... dude. You seriously haven't shown me that you know what you're talking about. Watch that boring video, watch MS show off Windows 7, talk about Windows 8 going ARM, and pay attention to how they're going to do it - and think about why.

If you show me a windows version available now, on *any* arm platform, that can run all windows software (native, unvirtualised). I'll eat my hat.

It's totally unimpressive that windows 7 is ported to arm, since they've rewritten most stuff anyway.
What they can't rewrite is history, the history of the wintel marriage, where intel is the assumed windows architecture.

Getting all windows software ported is not going to happen overnight, it'll take a decade.
(Not to mention forcing everyone to write new drivers)

I'm pretty sure this was their goal with the whole .net thing, but most of the software that matters doesn't use .net, and probably won't due to the drawbacks of using a VM.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

From the Wall Street Journal, a look at all the behind-the-scenes maneuvering. Good read, I've quoted the entire article.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...994792270.html

Nokia's Flirtations Put the Fear of Google Into Microsoft

Quote:

Microsoft Corp. knew it had far more at stake than Google Inc. as the two rivals competed to secure a tie-up with Nokia Corp. Losing the deal to Google could have landed a fatal blow to Microsoft's chances in the mobile market.

So Microsoft aggressively courted the Finnish cellphone giant, offering to pay billions of dollars and dangling incentives to Nokia's new boss, a former Microsoft executive. In a series of globe-spanning meetings in recent months, Nokia, too, began to see Microsoft as the best fit.

Last week, Nokia Chief Executive Stephen Elop made his decision. He bet his company's future on smartphones running Microsoft software and snubbed Google's Android.

In the end, Microsoft agreed to pay Nokia billions of dollars over the course of their multiyear agreement to help Nokia market and develop Windows Phone devices, according to Mr. Elop. It is unclear how much Google may have offered Nokia.

Intel Corp. CEO Paul Otellini said Mr. Elop went with the highest bidder. "Between Microsoft and Google he was getting incredible offers, money, to switch," Mr. Otellini told investors Thursday. Microsoft bid more, he said.

A spokesman for Google declined to comment. In a speech at a mobile-industry conference this week, Google CEO Eric Schmidt said he wished Nokia had decided to use Android for its phones and hopes the Finnish handset maker will decide to do so in the future.

Among Microsoft's inducements: It was willing to use a mapping service in its products called Navteq, offered by a company Nokia had spent $8.1 billion to acquire several years ago. Google, on the other hand, had far more invested in its own mapping service than Microsoft and was less willing to use Nokia's service, according to a person familiar with the matter.

Also, Nokia urgently wanted to reach an agreement with one of the companies in time for a London meeting with investors and analysts last Friday, and Microsoft moved more quickly than its rival to strike an alliance in time, this person said.

Nokia will also get to participate in the advertising revenue generated by Microsoft location-based services enabled by Navteq—for example, when someone searches for pizza on a Windows Phone and gets an ad for a nearby restaurant.

Mr. Elop, who joined Nokia from Microsoft in September, said during an interview this week that he began a strategic assessment of the company's options a month after taking the helm, choosing between continued development of Nokia's own software or a partnership with Microsoft or Google.

Mr. Elop said he was introduced via email to Google's Mr. Schmidt through a friend Mr. Elop described as a "thought leader or pundit" in the technology industry.

He also called Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, his former boss, and informed him that Nokia had started evaluating its strategic options.

Mr. Ballmer and senior Microsoft executives first met in person with Mr. Elop and counterparts at Nokia on Nov. 15 at Microsoft's Redmond, Wash., headquarters.

That was followed by a meeting on Dec. 6 at the W Hotel in Times Square in New York where executives, including Microsoft's Terry Myerson and Nokia's Jo Harlow, had to figure out whether the companies could even get Windows Phone software to run well on the underlying chips that Nokia uses in its phones. The technical dialog between the companies continued weeks later at a meeting in Reykjavík, Iceland.

Talks then shifted to business and marketing discussions at a meeting in a stuffy basement room in London in mid-January, including Microsoft mobile communications President Andy Lees and Nokia Executive Vice President Kai Öistämö.

During this time, the talks with Microsoft nearly broke down, according to a person familiar with the matter. The main issue: Nokia executives believed Microsoft was treating Nokia as it would any potential handset partner, while Nokia was making a "bet-the-company" decision on a software partner, this person said.

At that point, Microsoft executives had to show Nokia they was serious about making a deeper commitment. They also had to consider the implications of losing Nokia to Google, which was holding its own discussions with the company.

While Windows Phone has gotten positive reviews since the first handsets came out with it last November, the software hasn't made a dent in the mobile market. Microsoft software ran on only 3.1% of smartphones shipped in the fourth quarter, compared with 32.9% for Google and 30.6% for Nokia, according to research firm Canalys.

Any deal to back Google's Android by Nokia, still the world's largest maker of mobile handsets, would likely have torpedoed Windows Phone's chances. "At that point, the race is over," Mr. Elop said.

Mr. Elop said he negotiated with Mr. Schmidt and Google's top mobile executive, Andy Rubin.

Mr. Ballmer and his lieutenants headed for Helsinki in January to show how serious Microsoft was about cutting a deal. The plan was for Mr. Ballmer to fly privately into Helsinki, where he would then travel to a private Nokia facility, Mr. Elop added.

Mr. Elop said he instead got a call from Mr. Ballmer informing him that because of snow and fog, the plane wouldn't be able to land in Helsinki. About to run out of fuel, Mr. Ballmer instead landed in Stockholm. At that point, the fastest way for Mr. Ballmer to reach Helsinki was to fly commercially, Mr. Elop said, despite the greater risk that he could have been recognized.

While Mr. Ballmer was waiting quietly in the lounge, his cover was nearly blown when he was paged by name over the loudspeaker because of an error related to his plane ticket.

As momentum built over the coming weeks for a Microsoft deal, Nokia executives began to hint to Google executives that the company was leaning toward a deal with its rival.

Although their conversations were supposed to be confidential, Nokia executives were shocked when Vic Gundotra, a Google vice president, on Feb. 8 posted a message on his Twitter account that said: #feb11 "Two turkeys do not make an Eagle," an apparent reference to Nokia's investor conference on Feb. 11.

"I'm guessing they weren't happy with the way the decision was going," said Mr. Elop, who called Mr. Gundotra's message a "tweet bomb." He chimed in with his own tweet, comparing Nokia and Microsoft to the Wright Brothers: "Two bicycle makers, from Dayton Ohio, one day decided to fly."

On the evening of Feb. 10, the night before the alliance was announced, Nokia's board made the final decision to partner with Microsoft. Mr. Elop took the stage in London to sell the arrangement. Investors reacted cooly: Nokia'a American depositary shares fell 14% Feb. 11 on the New York Stock Exchange. Since Feb. 10, the stock has fallen $1.81, or 17% to $9.09.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crashdamage (Post 949812)

I think you are right. But, while large, their cash coffers are not infinite. They will keep burning through it trying to stop the unstoppable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UauKN4vVxE

http://temporaryland.wordpress.com/2...ource-windows/

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Despite the decisions Elop has made, for better or for worse.

I think they will keep meego - they will get rid of Symbian I think, but keep Meego.

And if all goes shits up, then they can jump ship to Google, it's free for anyone to use anyway.

Personally if Nokia release Meego devices, like the N9 then I'm not too bothered - but I won't be buying any WP7 crap.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rash.m2k (Post 949883)

I rather doubt the contract with Microsoft will allow Nokia to just "jump ship to Google". In fact, I expect it forces Nokia to greatly limit even what it does with MeeGo.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hintry (Post 949869)

This story convinced me that Elop was NOT a Trojan Horse and that he believed he was acting in the best interests of Nokia shareholders. Anyone who continues to float these conspiracy claims needs to contend with this article.

Of course, the point remains that he wasn't acting in MY best interests as a Maemo/MeeGo fan. :(

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeraldKo (Post 949927)

I rather doubt the contract with Microsoft will allow Nokia to just "jump ship to Google". In fact, I expect it forces Nokia to greatly limit even what it does with MeeGo.

The WSJ article I just referred to said that Microsoft was primarily afraid of Nokia using Google, so your speculation seems highly likely. I'm guessing that MS was less concerned with MeeGo, but still probably wanted assurances that Nokia wouldn't be stealing the spotlight from WP7.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Looks like the QTEngineers are sick of the FUD and rumors about "Qt is dead framework"

Best post seen soo far (about Qt future) is this:

http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/02/18/...of-cold-water/

No I am even more sure Qt will continue! I take this guy more serious than Mr Elop

Also this intresting article:

http://www.ecyrd.com/ButtUgly/wiki/M...entry_130211_1

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by lma (Post 949862)

Well, Nokia always said that sales were greatly exceeding their expectations. Apparently they never intended these devices to be commercially successful, but people bought them and loved them anyway.

Do you always believe in what Nokia's PR says 100%?
I mean, seriously, after all this?

5+ years to launch the 'internet tablet' with practically nothing to show (yet), while the competitors fasttracked barebone tablets and has been enjoying the market for most of 2010?

(Nokia) Internet Tablets. since 2005.

The bottomline is that Nokia is in the financial gutter now because none of their plans have worked as planned, thus they were forced to make a deal with the devil.

Quote:

Still, we now have CSSUs for 4 out of 5 Maemo devices so if you want to scratch an itch on an open component you can :-)

I will drink to this. *cheers*

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by buurmas (Post 949948)

Rubbish. He may not have been a Trojan Horse to MS, but that doesn't mean he never had any intentions of selling the company, or shelling the company at least.

Why would a non-Trojan Horse put all its eggs into the one basket of a small OS that has made no impact, from a company that has always failed in this market? To ditch all existing efforts - including the OS that keeps it being the biggest handset manufacturer in the world? And Elop made the lame excuse of time constraints - yet Nokia's WP7 phones won't be out until the same time or later than it's MeeGo device (WP7 from Nokia - between oct2011-2012), WTF?

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Elop's moves have been approved and supported by Nokia's BOD, including Jorma Ollila.

To support the logic of him being a 'trojan horse', then you must also assume that the BOD have been bought off.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by richwhite (Post 949973)

Maybe Because Microsoft payed Billions in cash to Nokia?

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

those nokia fukheads!!!. . .i use to watch those leaked n9 piks once a week!!!! how can they do this . . .meego ws suppose to rape android!!! hopefully someday the n9 will roar again!!!!

ps. . . as of today maemo is the best os on the planet as for android? well were running gingerbread on our n900 so up urs!

yup. . i no. . . im fukin pissed!!!

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikecomputing (Post 949985)

Maybe Because Microsoft payed Billions in cash to Nokia?

Right. The 'trojan horse' term isn't helping proceedings at all, and we don't need any term to acknowledge that Elop has just chased the money. Whether that's being a TH to MS or just offering Nokia to the highest bidder is irrelevant, the end result (or initial goal) is hardly too different.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ysss (Post 949984)

Elop's moves have been approved and supported by Nokia's BOD, including Jorma Ollila.

To support the logic of him being a 'trojan horse', then you must also assume that the BOD have been bought off.

Not really. Hell, MS have essentially bought Nokia, hence the deal being because MS offered more money than Google. Elop wanted to side with whoever paid more, not whoever had better long-term chances.
the BOD could have pushed for MS, they could have pushed for the highest bidder, they could have been persuaded before or after Elop wanted to do it. We don't know the inner workings and we don't need to: Elop got wined and dined by Google and MS and went with the highest bidder.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by richwhite (Post 949996)

That's an extreme oversimplication without knowing all the details

I think the fact that MS is so desperate to jockey into a position from their current smartphone insignificance is enough to assume that their offer is SIGNIFICANTLY better than Google's.

For MS, this is pretty much do or die. A one in a million chance to buy into a captive marketshare for a booming business that they've missed out of.

And they get a pretty decent (equally desperate) partner to boot.

I should also point out that the money goes into Nokia Oyj's coffer (Although I'm sure Elop got some niceties; not that he needs any after all those golden parachutes).

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ysss (Post 949958)

Do you always believe in what Nokia's PR says 100%?

Most of that wasn't PR, just off-hand remarks in interviews etc. Besides, I don't have to, I think it was obvious to anyone who preordered the last two devices at least that demand far exceeded production.

Quote:

5+ years to launch the 'internet tablet' with practically nothing to show (yet), while the competitors fasttracked barebone tablets and has been enjoying the market for most of 2010?

Oh yeah, no disagreement there. My point is that people loved the devices despite all that.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by lma (Post 950007)

That's a fair point. But we still haven't gotten any real numbers (beside the 100k in ... weeks) from Nokia. I have a feeling that they set a very very low bar for this curiously developer-targeted phone, yet commercially packaged-and-marketed.

Quote:

Oh yeah, no disagreement there. My point is that people loved the devices despite all that.

Yes, but it's a very small niche of the market.

Not aligned with the broad spectrum of the market that's necessary to sustain Nokia.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ysss (Post 950003)

You're right and i absolutely agree, but 'simplified' or not, how exactly is what i said much different from what you said? Or, different from the truth? That Elop, trojan horse or not, got his job in Nokia and almost immediately set about aligning with the highest bidder?

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)

Quote:

Originally Posted by richwhite (Post 950010)

That Nokia was in a worse condition (strategically, financially.... practically) than we assumed.

Otellini mentioned that as the reason Nokia exited MeeGo.

I'm not familiar with the Symbian side of things, but judging from their HUGE cutbacks (approved by the BOD and Jorma Ollila), which is no small issue at all since it relates to national matter/pride/economy... then there must be some issues there that they've decided they need to cut their losses out of.