Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

I'm not sure I totally agree with you there, if everyone runs after the same big bucks, everyone profits only a little.
But If you cater for a market that everyone else ignores, you earn the big bucks.
There's no reason every product a company makes has to be headline stuff.
What If instead of releasing 50 new phones every year that are all basically the same, some of them had small dedicated teams to serve different niche markets?
The "geek" niche market definitely has other potential, it works as marketing, to raise the quality of future employees, and it brings new technology to the company.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Do they put a solenoid or pump inside those farting phones?
How can you get farting on n900?

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

I agree somewhat with ericsson. As long as Linux fans do not understand how fragmented Linux is, and how it affects to "common" people, Linux will never make it to mainstream.
There is lots of arrogance, stubbordness and simple stupidity in many Linux authors. Many are just so detached they have lost the touch with reality and they do not even really care about the big picture enough to compromise even on things which wouldn´t matter to them practically. For example Ubuntu changing to be more LSB-compliant.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

I think I can answer this one, as my company is developing/manufacturing OEM embedded devices. Honestly, the last thing we would want to see is too much control from big brands. We would invest our resources on something with minimum control from big brands. We develop and OEM android tablet now, and we'd seriously consider MeeGo, and we are already quite late as there are already so many MeeGo products out there in Asia markets. MeeGo is a platform with much better potential, simply because it is under much less influence from big brands.

You are right at some points but not The Truth.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Err, not it's not. Unless you think that diversity is bad, and that we should all think and do the exact same thing...

Hardly, but you sure feel content to bash it with misinformation.

Which you could totally have that on pretty much any OS, but their management wasn't competent enough to see it through. Hopefully someone else will pick up from where they left off and run with it and give me what I want.

Largely it won't affect "common" people because they don't mess with the system on that level. Of course, I take everything ericsson says with a grain of salt.

Indeed, they want to do things their own way. How terrible.

Yes, they may completely not care. This isn't a problem (unless you have a hard time with people doing things differently from you.)

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

NOKIA cant even name phones appropriately. What kind of names are N9-00 or X1-00? Who the hell wants to buy phones with awful names

It is absolutely clear that NOKIA lost it. MICROSOFT is taking a HUGE gamble by partnering with NOKIA

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Man, wmarone, you beat me to it. I wanted to effectively point out the advantages to BOTH methods, really.

Monoculture works. It just does, but it halts developments and original thinking. Diversity is there when stagnation sets in and helps get development unstuck when too many people think there's only one way to do something.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

OK so diversity is good and fragmentation is bad? I don't see the differense, only different semantics. Diversity is not bad per se, but when it makes everyone (re)inventing the core wheels over and over again, it is not good for business. Diversity in apps is good for business, diversity in core components is not, not if you want diversity in apps. Qt will theoretically solve lots of fragmentation problems, but only if Qt is not fragmented.

Linux is about making "yet another" - something that does some core functionality. Not better than the others, only different and incompatible with the others.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Ok, but Android = Big G and MeeGo = Intel (more or less). If you want to invest your "resources on something with minimum control from big brand", why don't you start with something completely community driven, like SHR or Openmoko? I think because community is not enough...it's essential, but not enough. Probably you need to have some certainties that only a "big brand" can provide. Am I wrong?

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Funny - i agree almost with everything.
This: "You ARE wrong" on the beginning. Seems we said the same using diffrent words.
N900 could be something more than niche phone but it's not. Not because Nokia abandoned it. But because of this "doing it other way, and don't give a f... about the rest" policy. There would be nothing wrong, if there was a farting app (answering some post above: it could be made by recording noises from toilet :] )for nokia N900. Noone would try to make You use it.

And Yes
It is huge problem, as you, MaddogG and few others presented before: i bet most of your friends are far smarter then i am (no irony here, really), you don't care about averages and You don't understand them (You don't even try). You don't understand, that for many ppl even running a game on an emulator is to big trouble - because it needs two clicks, not just one. Again, again and again. when u tern your back against them You will loose. As n900 lost. as maemo did.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Could you give an example how for example these models would be named to have a better name?
http://www.newlaunches.com/entry_ima...a_timeline.jpg
http://www.newlaunches.com/entry_ima...a_timeline.jpg

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

What our real concern is the encumbrance of IPs within, and the legal implication when distributing devices with the Android market apps. Our buyers (who pay us to OEM) would eventually bear the legal cost when any disputes arise, thus directly affect our business deals with them.

Android is actually quite an open platform for developing/porting, and Google is opening it more and more. MeeGo is backed/initiated by Intel, but their intention is to sell more chips, and we'd gladly comply.

Heck the most difficult part for us is to make a product with heavily reliance on chips from manufacturers with very limited production capability. E.g. we received a contract to produce10,000 devices with Fuiji chips, and unfortunately Fuiji could only give us 5000 annually, and this is a very awkward situation you can imagine. We welcome Intel to stick her foot into the embedded market as they've much better production capacity. We'd be grateful to produce device on Intel chips.

That's one of the major reason why the embedded market in general welcome MeeGo. It's because of Intel, not Nokia. We are glad to see Nokia go, as in practise they're our competitor (but not the major one, they're real slow to market in production)

P.S. Above is from the third party manufacturer point of view of course, you might think differently. That's okay. Have a nice day. ;)

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Where did this "fragmentation" nonsense come from? Oh right, people who championed the utter homogeneity of the iPhone platform.

Who said this was only about business? How the hell are you going to force people who have zero obligation to you, to give up their ideas and work on something else? Who chooses the winners?

Generally, of course, from the Linux perspective it's not an issue because the application software is open source. MeeGo is attempting to provide a standardized base for proprietary things to target.

Zimon's point, that you are poorly attempting to use as a base to bash Linux from, is that unless the whole of the open source community gives up on the diversity of their ideas and homogenizes into a singular platform, they are dumb, irrational, wrong, and it's all their fault that Nokia has failed.

Why bring Qt up? It's not relevant.

I get this growing suspicion that you have no idea what you are talking about, and are simply grasping at straws to bash Linux.

Your argument is completely off the wall, I honestly cannot follow it. There is no reason you cannot have multiple layers of complexity and capability in a single device. But you insist on attacking people from a point of view that has no real relevance on what is (or presumably once was) a highly technical end-user forum.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Please, I know what I have written. It is much better if you write a coherent post explaining your arguments (if any).

Qt is relevant because it is one of the single most defragmentive (if such a word exist) piece(s) of software within the Linux community and across platforms. I know people like to diversify, do things different, do it their way instead of applying to a predetermined set of rules. Qt forces you to do things the Qt way. Lots of people don't like the Qt way, but they like the benefits of less coding for different platforms, coding with ease across a fragmented world.

It looks to me you are simply defending defending Linux because you "love" Linux, and for all other purposes your head is buried deep into the sand. Fragmentation has killed Linux, it is the single most important factor Linux is not on everyones PC. Android is the only real success Linux has had, and the reason is that Google stopped fragmantation just enough so that people can write apps using one API. Some say Android is not Linux anymore, and they are probably right.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

And that is only till 2007!

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Fragmentation is what happens when something isn't good enough, at least in the free software world.
The bar is set much higher than in commercial software since the goal is "good software" not money. Before a piece of software is perfect, there's always someone who will think the current development direction is wrong, and try to do it in a different way, maybe just to prove a point.
Anything which is less than perfect is, in effect, a moving target, and therefore impossible to standardise on.
Talking about a stable ABI in the Linux world is like talking about the devil to a monotheist. We simply don't need it, and don't want it either.

It's simple facts of life like this, that the LSB just "doesn't get", that's why they've been reduced to a laughing-stock for a decade now.

I'd be as bold to say that Linux is reducing fragmentation across the market of intelligent devices as a whole.
There are more "devices" using more similar software components than ever before.
Your computer, router, phone, media player, printer, television etc. etc. are soon all using Linux (if not, they most certainly are using gnu or at least posix), and most components of the system, regardless of distro are basically the same.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Qt is not currently at risk of fragmentation. The argument here is that Linux is "fragmented" because people do their own thing and that's somehow a horrible, no good, very bad thing that brought down Nokia.

Huh? That sounds more like you and Symbian, honestly. I'm waiting for a cogent argument from you, and have yet to see one.

Linux is wildly successful, just happens that it's in the consumer and industrial electronics arena. The end-user desktop is still dominated by the Microsoft monopoly, and will continue to be so long as they have the inertia moving forward. That has nothing to do with "fragmentation."

More like, Google bought up a proprietary vendor and pushed it by putting their weight behind it. Something like MeeGo would have provided a similar API, but would not have given Google anywhere near the level of control they wanted.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

I think part of the problem is that "fragmentation" has become a dirty word instead of looking at it pragmatically for what it is without immediate prejudice. The problem here is that one person's "branching' or "forking" is another person's "fragmenting."

Personally, I am not at all opposed to "fragmenting" things if it's done appropriately.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

The real fragmentation is coming from commercial interests, creating things like iphone, android and webos, who purposely try to create their own "software eco-system" (sorry about the bad language) in order to try to exclude other companies, users and operating systems.

With enough bad luck, one of them might succeed.

History shows that free software is only used by the masses in cases where it is utterly superior to the competition. If it's only slightly or much better than the rest, there's all kinds of anti-linux and pro-commercial propaganda to turn users away, and having them use marketed systems instead. That's why your regular joe won't ever choose Linux unless it's their only option.
To them Linux is that pain-in-the-*** system only geeks use for no other reason than them wanting to be geeky.

The talk about "linux is fragmented" just proves this point, it's pure marketing talk that spreads like wildfire, with no actual proof, and how can it when such a statement is so vague.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

That's it, gotta say something...
I guess you haven't considered or don't know about the incredible success - including real, money-making, commercial success - Linux has had on servers, etc, etc. That most of the web runs on Linux servers. The Russian government is going all-Linux. And China. And Google, probably your bank, thousands of companies - hell, even M$ Update - all run on Linux servers. Plus the millions of users running WebOS or Maemo, and/or a multitude of Linux distros on millions of desktops/laptops. And on and on and on.

Yet, Linux has nothing but Android...?

Just stop. You can't even spell 'fragmentation' much less understand or explain it. Learn, then post again.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

A new tag has been added.
*Tag award.:P
http://newsfall.com/wp-content/uploa...1216532544.jpg

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Nokia paid Elop more than $6m to leave M$, I thought M$ would be paying Nokia to take Elop?? This has to be the deal of the century for M$?

http://www.totaltele.com/view.aspx?C=0&ID=463191

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

WHOO!! Achievement unlocked! ;)

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Actually it's not the video game one but it's the real one:P,guess happened just after the elopocalypse.(Looks like elopocalypse is changing everything.)

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Here's Nokia's views of risks in MS marriage for investors:

Link

Thanks, @VHAho!

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Yes u can't and this is your problem

Yes!! You finally get it :D It took you two pages of reading to understand what I want to say.
I said, or tried to say (writing in english makes it more complicated to me) that maemo sank, and i bet meego will, because YOU made it closed platform. BECAUSE YOU DON"T GIVE A F U C K about ppls needs. You closed it not from a programmers point of view, but from a customer point of view. So Nokia understood, that there is no point in investing in a platform, which won't attract new CUSTOMERS (do i need to write a definition of this word? Well i will write the cynic one: It is a guy from whom a company can suck money). The great (again - no irony here) linux, maemo, open source generally speaking community will allways support itself. You have specyfic needs, very diffrent then the needs of averages. But this makes the platforms, in which such community is involved, or "worse" - on which they are based, useless for making money.

Nokia understood that, nokia was disapointed. I bet, that when they tried to put n900 on wider scale market they thought - hey, we gave Them the best platform ever created, and the decent hardware. So let's just sit down and watch They make apps and we will earn $$$. But u didn't. What You did, was write an apps which was USEFULL, not EYECANDY and FUN. - you wan't attract an average customer by that.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Sorry, but BS. You've not learned obviously anything about reading the differencies about rpm and deb and why LSB has chosen and made a decision.

But just look in meego forum, why Nokia is not allowed to use "Meego"-name in N950 and try to guess how expensive it will be for Nokia to change from deb to rpm, and all this because Linux fragmentation in this issue, which would had easily fixed long ago by Debian and Ubuntu if they wouldn't be so stubborn.

Ask gqil how expensive it will be for Nokia and if it would had been easy, they would had done it already last year.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

You wan't??? Is this a new word?
Btw Elop is already rocking the Nokia.
http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000...5018.strip.gif

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Well said. Having a device that is supported by a community that has individuals who, when users look for support in using the thing, more-or-less tells them it is meant for developers and to **** off and find out for themselves is never going to work. I guess Nokia could see this. It is not rocket science.

Mish.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

I don't undersant Nokia : forget the good Maemo to MeeGo and forget the powerfull MeeGo to a bad Windows Mobile... :confused:

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

I'm not sure I've understood this comment correctly but it seems you are suggesting this community tells non-developers to F off. If that is the case it couldn't be further from the truth. This community is one of the most helpful mobile communities I've come across where end users can ask the devs of the apps they use for help, features, or bug fixes and they are often solved or implemented. As with most FOSS communities there are projects that may no longer be active but I've never seen a dev tell a user to F off and find out for themselves.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Hope the following would help dissipating your confusion:

http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000.../615.strip.gif

Source:http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2004-09-06/

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

A partnership with Microsoft...
A bad Idea, I think...

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

So you're attacking a forum of people for doing what they want instead of catering to you?

Oh please. Don't give me this nonsense. You're attacking the wrong set of users. Your whole argument is a huge ad-hominem against people who aren't responsible for what you're demanding loudly. There's a ton of people working on this platform, trying to help, trying to keep things going despite the platform vendor's utter failure to hold up their end of the deal.

CUSTOMERS ARE NOT OUR PROBLEM. THEY WERE NOKIA'S PROBLEM. NOKIA FAILED THEM.

Same goes for MeeGo. It's an issue for the device manufacturer to work out. MeeGo will work with developers and vendors. End-users, however, will probably look to a derivative project or to their vendor.

Oh well damn, let me go write applications that are worthless and eyecandy and not useful. For Nokia's sake. Sorry, no.

No, you're blaming the community here for things it isn't responsible for. Stop.

It's not well said, he's totally off-base.

Had Nokia done their job, it's highly likely that most people would probably never come here. In fact, I suspect most people don't. Also, this is not a support forum, this a technical user's forum. If you want support, you should yell at Nokia for their failure to supply it. However, you will probably get a decent amount of help if you're willing to work with people to resolve your issue instead of demanding help and demanding a solution.

No, Nokia failed completely to do what they were supposed to, and people came here thinking we were customer service and responsible for everything Nokia was responsible for.

Edit:

Now I get what the problem is. You're mistaking us for the developers who were supposed to be there to push applications into the Ovi store (which is where stupid fart apps and "eyecandy go.) Maemo.org is a community side project, and to access the software it provides you have to explicitly enable the Extras repo.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

You believe that if you want to. I appreciate that many on this list do not accommodate criticism of any sort, and they are always correct. That is part of the reason why the n900 is the end of the line.

Mish.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

I admire you wmarone. I tried to go trough this post but i became physically nauseated, dribble entwined in to more dribble and after that, i bit more dribble.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

With that I can agree - never try to build a commercially successfull product around an open project. Nokia tried, and they failed.

Are You sure we are talking about the same phone? In my n900, just after i bought it, maemo-extras was enabled by default. After reflashing it to vanila state, maemo-extras was also enabled by default. Why you think NOKIA did it?

PS: wan't is not a new word - it's my mistake.
IQ below 50, so i have to explain it?

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

Which is Nokia's fault entirely, and has nothing to do with using open source software in a commercial project.

And on mine, Extras was present in the list but disabled.

Who knows? If you restore from backup, IIRC, it will restore your repos... In any case, it's certainly not because they were betting the farm on the maemo.org community, I assure you.

And out of left field, more ad-hominem.

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

yes, I've learned anything!

Huh? That's the reason I've been opposed to the whole Meego thing, why does Nokia even need it. Changing package manager to a another one which isn't better in any way is a waste of time.
It's easier just to add what ever packages that come out of meego to debian.

Just drop the fragmentation thing already, ok?

It makes me sick having to think of the amount of time developers have to spend, just because of a marketing/branding thing.

At one place I worked, one of the bosses suggested an OEM scheme for the software we used. I flat out refused to do it. A few years later somebody else did it for him.
Guess what, that boss wanted it because he was being handed money under the table, and then we started seeing the software in the wild, with vague licensing contracts. The company went bankrupt shortly after.

Why do we even need the Meego name? It's not like anyone knows about it.
If a name is that important, why not pick something known, like slackware, debian, gentoo, or ubuntu?

Re: Nokia - Microsoft partnership (merged threads)
 

So you claim having transaction support in a package manager is no improvement ? And also you claim it is no practically any safer having GPG signatures in packages embedded than detached somewhere in the repository and lost by many in transfer? If so, then either you are not honest or you do not really seem to know much anything about C.S.

LSB wouldn't had made a standard about package manager, if it wouldn't be important. And Nokia's case is a very good example how expensive it can become when Linux fragmentation hits like it has in this case.