Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

And this is based on your expert experience? You mind backing this up with some empirical data?

The problems with service in the US in general has to do with an immaturity factor. Apple will be remiss to launch an EDGE phone in Europe. They know it would not fly but as there are not many 3G networks in the US when compared to Europe and the rest of the world. It's not Apple's fault that there are no real high speed data networks in the US

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Not looking good for the iPhone if this is anything like accurate - from engadget...

Summary: A dodgey phonebook and it's difficult to type SMS/text or emails...

Could it be that the iPhone looks wonderful, sounds great, has a ground breaking UI but is in fact a complete PITA to use as an actual phone?

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Hmmmmm......

N800:

1. Handwriting recognition = Useless
2. Camera = Useless
3. Current OS = Useless (debatable)
4. Phone = Oppssss..... doesn't have one
5. Wifi = Not bad
6. Keyboard = Tip, tip, tip, tip ( darn defective touchscreen)

The hits just keep on coming. Hopefully Nokia sees the error (N800) of its ways and designs a product that is usable right out of the box.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

The OP has some very good points... I did months of reading on the N800 before I bought it but after I bought it I found it to be a huge disappointment. It's just not meant for the average consumer, I'm not a linux hacker by any means so I managed to figure out how to install new apps but... I shouldn't have to rely on other people for basic applications. If this device is going to sell itself as a cool multi media chat device than is should do that out of the box well. Right now as it stands... The address book SUCKS it can't import Vcard version 3, photo viewer sucks can't slide show or organize photos essentially it's the same as filemanager in windows 3.1 or windows explorer. The chat program is limited to only google talk which is still in beta, I have yet to video conference with anyone beause I can't find anyone with an N800.

The browser can play non flash video files in the browser... and EVERY program feels like it has a different UI that you have to learn.

I think Nokia was onto something it had it's time to be the best at what it did with the N800/700 and blew it.

Gone are the days where you can't just sell someone a piece of hardware and ask them to write the software. Everyone expects a complete package Syncing is a must!!!!

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

1. The HWR isn't useless (I can print faster than I can pen-tap on the keyboard), there's just a lot of room for improvement. The "HWR" that came standard on my P910 -- Jot -- was pretty useless too, but installing Decuma Alphabetic made a world of difference.

2. Likewise, the camera isn't useless, but more a solution in search of a problem. I believe the application idea I proposed elsewhere (a photo-notepad) could be very useful.

3. The OS is great (after all, Debian is the OS God uses!), but the user interface is flawed. I believe the same will go for the iPhone, as Apple has long ago sacked the only people it had who even knew how to spell usor intarrface.

4. The N800 doesn't need to be a phone.

5. The WiFi on the N800 is by far the best I've ever seen in a portable device.

6. The big keyboard works rather well. Unfortunately I'm one of those people who need tactile feedback, which is why I alternate between HWR and a BT keyboard (with the exception of the Xterm, which doesn't "do" HWR very well).

I see the N800 as a sort of Swiss Army pocket knife: Out of the box it doesn't do a lot of things very well; and a new user does need to read the manual to learn what each sharp implement does (not to mention that he can really cut himself if he doesn't); but in the end you'll be able to do a lot of things that people without a Swiss knife can't do, or can't even imagine are possible.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

The OP has some very good points... I did months of reading on the N800 before I bought it but after I bought it I found it to be a huge disappointment. It's just not meant for the average consumer, I'm not a linux hacker by any means so I managed to figure out how to install new apps but... I shouldn't have to rely on other people for basic applications. If this device is going to sell itself as a cool multi media chat device than is should do that out of the box well. Right now as it stands... The address book SUCKS it can't import Vcard version 3, photo viewer sucks can't slide show or organize photos essentially it's the same as filemanager in windows 3.1 or windows explorer. The chat program is limited to only google talk which is still in beta, I have yet to video conference with anyone beause I can't find anyone with an N800.

The browser can play non flash video files in the browser... and EVERY program feels like it has a different UI that you have to learn.

I think Nokia was onto something it had it's time to be the best at what it did with the N800/700 and blew it.

Gone are the days where you can't just sell someone a piece of hardware and ask them to write the software. Everyone expects a complete package Syncing is a must!!!!

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

I'm in the same boat, dude. I have a lot of friends but no one thinks much of my device and won't bother to install the necessary app or do this videochat with me so I can find out what the videochat looks like. I upgraded the device for the videochat and the 4-gig SD RAM capabilities, but haven't used the videochat YET.

Tell you what... why don't you send me chat invitation for a one-time quick video chat so we can both check this thing out....

I'm going to send you a PM with the details.

Later.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

I rushed out to buy the 770 back in the day. It served me well for a while-- a reasonable bridge between my Blackberry and my laptop. I enjoyed being able to get apps for it, although the primary applications that I used tended to be built-in. I had high hopes of the word processor, the ability to SSH, all of these cool little things.

The first realization is that these extras weren't really what Nokia had planned on. (Why do you have to go through all the hoops for root access?!) The device was somewhat functional out of the box, able to handle some basic functionality (that didn't justify the price of the unit).

The iPhone has a chance at being much better-- based on the attention to details, and a careful selection of features. The screen resolution is a shame, but I'm realistic. Size is more important for a mass-market device. Any higher resolution wouldn't do anything to improve the device for the average user.

The thing that really scares me about the iPhone is if thumb typing doesn't work well. I really need to replace my Blackberry in the next few months. I really hope Apple is able to pull this off.

...And, I really hope it helps to jump start Nokia, Motorola, Samsung, and the others to develop better products.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Apple doomed themselves when they selected AT&T.
I live in the largest county in North Carolina and AT&T GSM coverage there is spotty at best. As long as you're alongside a major highway/road you're fine.
At least until you walk into your house and it goes down to 1 or 2 bars.
Just today at a family reunion a friend of mine remarked he was thinking about getting an iPhone when it launched. I told him to forget it since there was ZERO coverage within miles of his house where the reunion was.
He said "damn, guess I'm not getting one."
Apple should have hounded the crap out of AT&T to grow out their networks more.
I've even tried contacting AT&T to see if they want to slap a tower in a "dead zone" on our property towards the south but to no avail.
Only last week did they finally get around to changing the network name from "Cingular" to "AT&T" here in NC.
Pathetic.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

I don't understand: if your N800 is defective (like you say: a problem with your touchscreen ) why don't you get it fixed? It's really easy, just send it in for repair and nokia will fix your n800. You can't be out of warrenty because the device is only available for like 6 months.

If your n800 is broken no wonder you have a negative impression of the device. Surely you can't compare a defective N800 to a not yet released apple product?

The touchscreen on the N800 works well in my opinion. And text entry using the
thumbkeyboard is a good way of user input. Early reports on the iphone virtual
keyboard are a bit negative. That doesn't suprise me much because the iphone
keybpad is just as small as the keybboard on the n800 using a stylus. I tried that using
my fingers and it sucks.

Also the webbrowser on the n800 seems to be more compatible because of the flash
support that the iphone is reported to be missing (at least at launch).
I love the internettablets because of the high resolution screen and the good
webbrowser. The pdf viewer is also very nice. Reading pdf files will suck on the iphone because of the smaller low resolution screen.
The iphone is an ipod, that's it main thing, they just added some phone and pda functions.

The n800 is a webbrowsing tablet. And is slowly becoming a real internettablet (with im, voip, flash,mail,media player getting better )

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Never used it much, seemed to work well enough after teaching it my handwriting though, but I have horrible handwriting anyways so I tend to stay away from recognition.

Well, it was integrated specifically for video chat and because you're going to be relatively close to the camera, there's not really a need for a really good camera for that. (Yes, I use videochat all the time and no, you don't need two N800s for it.) I use it sometimes to take pictures as well, but the quality isn't very good for that. I would like to see better, but I'm glad it's there. Far from useless to me.

Absolutely not useless.

Could have fooled me. I've been using Gizmo on the N800 as my full time phone for months.

I've yet to see better on any other piece of commercial equipment.

Send it in and get it fixed instead of whining about it then. My touchscreen works just fine (and with heavy chat use too).

Plenty usable for me. I didn't expect it to be a full PC with the absolute best software and PIM. I didn't expect it to replace a business phone like a Blackberry. I just wanted internet wherever I am and it gives me that and so much more.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Well, my wife who knows nill about computers loves it, she steals it all the time to surfe the web in the kitchen or the garden. When I can't find my 800 I know where to look :D

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

My wife is the type of person that hates spending much money, especially on expensive tech gadgets, but she comes around quick. When I bought the 22 inch widescreen LCD monitor I'm using, I thought she was going to kill me.

"YOU SPENT ALL THAT MONEY ON -"
*turns on screen*
"...oooh, that's nice."

She was the same way with the N800. She screamed at me for buying it but within about 30 seconds of trying it for the first time, she loved it and was trying to find excuses to use it.

"I don't know where we are... give me the tablet."
"We're down the street from our house! We can't be lost!"
"Just give it!"

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Mine doesn't either. She can't be bothered: "Were's the laptop?"

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Point. Explained the 770 to my sister, she doesn't even touch it when it's lying unused on the table in standby mode.

What's more, she also owns a spiffy Macbook that she only ever uses to write and to surf and neglects otherwise. Maybe it's just hardwired into women to be indifferent?

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

go buy your iphone - i really couldn't care less if you weren't happy with the n800, plenty of people here who are happy with all the disadvantages and pros that come with it. return or sell your n800 and stop complaining. There are plenty of people who would love to have your device. Ungrateful. Why don't you make some kid happy in Rwanda and send it there. Just make sure to load ScummVM first.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Wow, you must really love your N800. I hope you two have a happy life. At no point in this thread did I say I would buy the iPhone. However I did point out its advantages as I saw them. As to the happy people here, great for them. Hopefully Nokia will design a better device, and if so, I will be the first in line to buy one. Who are you to call someone ungrateful because I don't happen to believe a particular device is worth the time and effort required to get a usable (my opinion) experience. Do you realize how nutty you sound?

As for sending it to Rwanda? I would if I wanted to torture someone. Are we through with this yet? By the way, I did not start this thread. I just commented in it, so aim your misguided rage and rants toward the OP.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Hey Karel,

Thanks for the great response. I do love your posts. After reading and re-reading your post I realized that you hit some good points which I know will lead me to the next version of the IT when it comes out. I like the IT concept but for me, and in my opinion, the current N800 is not a consumer device but I am sure the next version will be. Nokia does sometimes learn from its customers.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Why don't you send it back to Nokia for repair? Judging from your post your N800 is clearly defective. (touchscreen should be working perfectly) . Maybe a correctly functioning N800 would make you change your mind about the device.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Thanks Bernard. My actual first evaluation of the N800 was for a customer. The US military. They are looking into different devices with different applications, ease of use, robustness, durability, applications, etc.... In its current incarnation the N800 is not ready for this. The ability to sync contacts and have calendaring info is crucial for military applications. Without these basics the N800 is a non-starter. As for the other issues, touch screen, I did not personally have this but have read about many that did have it. Bad batch maybe. I did get the reboot cycle of death, and the crash and burn quite often. In its current state I could not recommend the N800.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

If it was for the military, I'd have thought it would make more sense to look at it from a primarily hardware point of view. I can't imagine the soldier boys relying on regular Internet for their communications.

Since the N800 can essentially run any flavour of Linux interface on top of the built in stuff (see the KDE miracle), it'd be wiser for them to set it up to use some kind of sooper-dooper intranet only the brass knows about, in which case most of your points of criticism are moot. Even the camera could be used as an emergency "look-over-Grunt's-shoulder" assistent.

Then again, before the military would be interested, a heck of a lot of ruggedizing would have to happen to the N800, which I don't think is feasible with the current model (ironically, the underdog 770 form factor was much more forthcoming in this respect).

As an aside: I've had my N800 since february and I have had exactly none (zero, 0) of the issues reported in this forum. I have flashed it twice sofar without any hardship (granted, always from an Ubuntu desktop, running in WmWare in Windows XP) and I have been known to install version 0.1 software on it from quite unreliable sources. It just won't crash.

To say that my N800 is more stable than my 770 would be akin to stating that the Canadian Shield is geologically slightly more stable than the Mid-Atlantic Ridge.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Thanks.

I agree completely that the N800 is not a consumer device -- at least not in the way people on this forum use it. If one uses it the way Nokia apparently intends it to be used, it is however a valid consumer device, albeit more akin to a slightly ******ed Sony Mylo.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

A year ago I had similar problems on my Nokia 770. The touchscreen was defective and it crashed/rebooted a lot (seemingly random) . I think these two things are related. I send it in for repair and after that the touchscreen was perfect and the device hasn't crashed since . (The opera browser did close on some rare moment, but no more random reboots)
BTW they didn't change the mainboard, only my touchscreen, I know because the the MAC address was still the same one. So I think a defective touchscreen can have severely negative impact on stability.
(I assumed here that the Mac address is unique for the board, in the same way that the imei number is for the Nokia phones: if they need to change the circuit board than your imei changes)

Might I ask what made you consider the N800 if calendar and contact applications are so vital? It isn't one of the features on any spec sheet I have seen. It isn't a PDA and was never marketed as such, so what made you look into the N800 in the first place? Surely those positive things that made you look are still present?

I agree a lot of thing can be improved, but I use the device a lot and found it a lot more useful than the Windows mobile PDA's I tried.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

@Karel,

They are going IP based dude. The ruggedization and such would come at a later stage. They did this with Motorola phones. PURE CRAPOLA. I think they Motorola hired some ex-colonel and he bought the pieces of junk. Anyway, they were looking at a bunch of devices. I saw the N800 in a Wayne's Cafe in downtown Helsinki and then reported back about it. Bought one for testing, and had a meeting with Nokia about it (but you know the rest of the story there), and decided that at the moment the N800 is not right for its intended uses. The Newton might be much better but it is limited in connectivity options. :)

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Standup is calling dude. :)

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Big push for IP based devices, considering DARPA helped invent the Internet and all. This is my world: http://www.fas.org/spp/military/doco...-24/fsc-78.htm and this: http://www.net.com/pdf/scream10050-ds.pdf

So I thought a command staff loaded with N800's would be pretty hi-tech, and right on time. I still do actually, just not the CURRENT N800. I think the next IT that Nokia introduces will have all of the problems fixed and ready for prime time. Call me an eternal optimist but I do feel this way. Also, I am waiting, don't tell my wife that I am spending more money, for the next f/w upgrade. If it is good, I might go back and get myself another one. As I mentioned, Karel's posts gave me pause. For myself, I can see using the N800. I know its limitations, and strengths. We will see. Thanks for the questions by the way.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

The funny thing about the iPhone is that it is what made me aware of the N800. After all the iPhone hype, I got to thinking I'd really like a system like that but without all the cellphone garbage since I already have a phone I like.. basically I just wanted a nice little web browser device with WiFi, which is what the N800 is.

So I decided this weekend to go ahead and buy one this coming week. The fact that its almost completely open to development is a huge plus for me since I'm a professional C/C++ programmer. I can't wait to get started messing with software on the thing.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Fatal flaw of the iPhone: The battery is not replaceable. You have to send your iPhone back to Apple when the battery fails. Does Apple really expect people to give up their cell phones for a week or two while they wait for the battery to be replaced? Ridiculous. There was an article in the NY Times this weekend that pointed this out.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

I've got an iPhone and a N800. There's no comparison. I haven't touched the N800 since getting the iPhone.

The screen is two to three times brighter and readable in sunlight. The screen fonts are very readable and contrasty. The ability to zoom in and out quickly is amazing.

The OS and interface is like something out of the future.

Web browsing is much faster and easier than on the N800. The "reverse pinch" and double tapping on an area of a page work great. Even though the screen is smaller, the overall experience is better. I find myself wishing i could zoom in and out like that on my laptop.

Apple just gets it. They know what people want. And the interface doesn't get in the way.

OK, it's not perfect. The EDGE network is s l o w. . . .
The mail app needs spam filtering.
It's expensive.

But, I bet it sold more units in the first 24 hours than all of the N800's ever sold.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

It sold somewhere around 525K in 2.5 days. Not bad. You are correct though in that Apple seems to get it.

Quick question. How do you feel about not using the phone at all? I have the chance to get one without the phone contract, thus no slow, crappy EDGE, but I live in Finland which is pretty much wifi'd everywhere. If I can get an iPhone (us version) for a good deal until the European version comes out, would you recommend it?

Thanks.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Just got done reading this review. Unlike some of the other half and quarter reviews. This one answers a lot of questions and is very fair and detailed. It tells you the good and the bad. I've been reading reviews from these guys for years and they have always been honest and thorough.

http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3027

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

So I got some hands on time with the iPhone as well.

The screen resolution might be lower than the N800 but it's browsing experience is far superior to what's offered on the tablets. The text is much more legible, scrolling is perfect, and to quote others on the board, "Apple just gets it".

It is SO much easier to navigate sites, it makes the zoom buttons on the N800 look rather paltry. If you visit sites with heavy CSS like Ars Technica, you'll find it that the double tapping for zoom and finger scrolling knocks it out of the park.

Not only that, the rich email client that performs very well when within range of a wifi access point. It has a perfect YouTube interface, and the widget apps are decent as well.

I hate to say it, but Apple's programming genius embarrasses Nokia's internet tablet efforts.

Yes it doesn't support flash yet, but all its good for these days is banner ads and homestarrunner. Even then, Steve Jobs said in a recent interview that Flash support is being considered (likely means its coming).

It won't please everyone, but you're looking at a device that has near perfect text entry, battery life (7-9 hours of browsing or video!!!), browser, email and ipod. Focused on a small set of features, Apple delivered an amazing product. I expect the kinks and deficiencies to be worked out in firmware updates, I can't wait to see what they'll do.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Have you ever heard of a bluetooth headset? Would think that'd be rather private. And with evdo rev A on the horizon and the newest crop of smartphones, what you're complaining about will be a non issue (ideally). And the fact that you make an argument of something that might happen 2% of the time the average (and many above-average) user uses his/her device is just laughable. I can pick out just about any device and pick it apart for some scenario that just rarely happens.

As for the iphone, it has flash, but not a lot of substance. The UI is a nice step above the average phone or smartphone. I played around with one for about an hour as one of my docs just ditched his 700p for it. I told him he'd be sorry, but for the time being he was all caught up in the landscape to portrait switching and the slick graphics like going to album cover mode when switching to landscape in itunes. He knows that will wear off, and he knows he'll be missing some of his basic pda functionality he took for granted. That on screen keyboard left a lot to be desired. As the poster mentioned above, the web is very graphic and silky smooth to roam about. It renders pages very well and is way beyond any browsing I've done on all platforms of smartphones and my brief time (a few hours) on the 770. The test messaging in bubbles has a neat factor to it.

It's extremely lightweight from a PIM sort of view. It's completely WYSIWYG. The ability to customize and add-on or even subtract just isn't there. They cripple it like they cripple the ipod. But it isn't a smartphone, and all the people that ditch their smartphones for it will complain and be unhappy after all the glitz and glamour wears off. I'd never leave a smartphone for it be it WM, BB or Palm.

For those that are just venturing into all the functionality, I'm sure they'll be happy campers. It was a fun little toy to play around with, and I'm sure it'll have it's place in the market. At the very least it will push other manufacturers to innovate a bit on their next go around. Then they'll add some glitz to the substance. iPhone will do just the opposite (one would hope) and competition will continue.

As for its text input. I can't agree with the above poster. I typed on it for quite a bit. I just can't see it becoming intuitive. I can type on my treo without looking at it after awhile. I can do it easily while driving and not always look down at it. I can't see doing that on the iphone without physical keys. If I'm staring at it, great. The predictive and intuitive parts of it are helpful, but I doubt it would ever completely replace physical keys.

Just my humble opinion.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

It really scares me to read the number of people who are admitting to typing and driving. What the **** is wrong with you people? I've been rear ended twice by people ****ing with their phones. You guys really need to cut that **** out.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

What I found particularly funny is that, after watching a video on the "earth-shattering" user interface of the iPhone (<spit!>), my first reaction was: "But -- but -- I have almost all that already on my desktop".

You see, all I did, a while back, was install a Firefox plugin, called "Grab and Drag". Everything the iPhone (<spit!>) does, minus the pathetic two-finger-zoom, can be done with that lowly Firefox plugin.

Some programming genius indeed. All Jobs did was steal a Firefox plugin from 2005, make it a system plugin and called it innovation.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

You can't use the iPhone for alot of things without it being activated AFAIK. Eg. the ipod app.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

You're not supposed to do be able to do so. That doesn't stop people. Alternatively, you can take the risk and try deactivating it within 30 days, which by contract won't get the early deactivation keys... but good luck dealing with AT&T right now.

I personally wouldn't see the point in paying 500 or 600 USD for an 8gig portable media player, particularly with Archos coming out with the 5th gen models soon, but whatever works for you.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

You can also get a pre-paid subscription where they give you an activation code. Once the phone is active, you can simply throw the sim card away and use the iPod and wifi features.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

Karl, I know that you know that your comparison is not fair.

Re: iPhone's here... Say Goodbye to Nokia
 

I love that you find a good implementation of grab and drag offensive. All apple does is take good ideas and implement them correctly. It's not their fault everyone else sucks at refinement.

The n800 <Spit!> after 7 months still kinda blows. No wonder Apple already sold 1 million iphones. I can't even use the fullscreen keyboard in opera after all this time... what a joke.

I want to stick with this IT but its a terrible mess of bugs and quirks.


Edit:

Sorry for being so negative. I hope that our next firmware refines things a bit. But I still find the Linux evangelists more annoying that Mac heads. Karel, whats with the <spit!> crap. Apple just came and rocked the pants off Nokia's attempt at an internet communicator. Hopefully it is what lit the fire under their asses.

And so what if it was done on some Firefox plugin in 2005... its useless on a desktop, The iPhone implemented it where its actually useful. Everyone wants a "desktop" browsing experience, so you knock them for making it happen? You make zero sense.

Their "innovation" is in actually making stuff useful. Innovation is not a buggy mess that relies on open source to fill in painfully gaping holes in their product. And if you didn't even load anything on the N800... the built apps are terrible. Opera is out of date and can't render Web 2.0 stuff. The email client is useless. I'd say the only nice thing on the IT is Google Talk.

7 months ago the tablet came out. Why is there text entry issues in Opera still? Its a crippling bug.