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-   -   The future of your Nokia Windows phone (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=70257)

slaapliedje 2011-02-25 12:18
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 955100)
Linux is comparable to Windows 7 (NT) in terms of RT, that is completely off the charts regarding RT but good at running tons of processes where exact timing is no issue, like on a PC.

For mobile phones, running tons of processes has limited advantage, but RT capabilities becomes increasingly important when the HW spec gets lower and simpler. Nokia is in the need for something that also work well in the sub 200$ range to replace Symbian, and that doesn't suck the life out of the batteries in a couple of hours.
That's also referring to the stock kernel. I wonder what the rt kernel is comparatively. I don't know myself, never bothered benchmarking them.

Either way, Linux can be shrunken down to being as minimalist as the hardware is. Why exactly a phone needs to support modules, for example, is beyond me. Compile in the things you want and the Linux kernel can become extremely small / adaptable to anything. Hell, I bet you could run damn small Linux on something with 16mb of ram.

In fact;

http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/486.html

slaapliedje

ndi 2011-02-25 12:38
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
a) WP7 is not CE
b) Scaling up in the immediate future is fine. It already supports new stuff.
c) Scaling up in the long run is moot, since in a couple of years W8 will be out and it will run on x86 and ARM, so that's that. It scales up to a powerful desktop. And down to minimum WP7 reqs.

Personally, I'm going to guess that an OS rewritten in 2010, breaking compatibility is less of a fish out of water than an OS designed for desktop and scaled down. Not that most of what is being run today is just a scale or a straight recompile. Maemo is way faster that EasyDebian Debian.

wildwaldbiberhirte 2011-02-25 13:22
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 955100)
Linux is comparable to Windows 7 (NT) in terms of RT, that is completely off the charts regarding RT but good at running tons of processes where exact timing is no issue, like on a PC.

For mobile phones, running tons of processes has limited advantage, but RT capabilities becomes increasingly important when the HW spec gets lower and simpler. Nokia is in the need for something that also work well in the sub 200$ range to replace Symbian, and that doesn't suck the life out of the batteries in a couple of hours.
Windows NT is preemptive, not preemptible. Hard RT requires certain scheduling methods and a preemtible kernel, which stock Linux can provide, as well as win CE.
I think the main limitations are in footprint for tiny embedded systems (same as windows whatever), and limited time functions (same as windows whatever). And, of course, certification for safety critical systems.

Realtime capabilities have no direct influence on energy consumption and minimal hardware specs. Or, well, they do. Realtime sysems need high quality, stable clock sources.

daperl 2011-02-25 13:56
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
I heard that Microsoft was gonna help Nokia maintain this site. In fact, there's an update expected today. I sure hope they don't fuc

slackve 2011-02-25 14:17
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by daperl (Post 955194)
I heard that Microsoft was gonna help Nokia maintain this site. In fact, there's an update expected today. I sure hope they don't fuc
Maybe they're going to make it only for internet explorer site or add a "verify genuine copy" button thingy

Copernicus 2011-02-25 14:26
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 955053)
Linux is nothing but a simplistic/brute force bloated piece of software, with the only real advantage of being simplistic. Works well on high spec HW (but so does Windows XP).

Anyway, tell me what kind of problems Windows Embedded Compact has with scaling up, other than including proper drivers for new HW. Then explain why this is any different for Linux.
Warning! What follows is a long opinion piece. I didn't expect I was going to write an essay when I started... :) Anyway, executive summary: Linux is a general-purpose OS, thus very scalable; Windows CE is a specialized-purpose OS, therefore less so.


It is true that, at its heart, Linux is a fairly simplistic concept. Back at the very beginning, Linus Torvalds just wanted to create an operating system for himself to use on his own PC. He had no vision of running a graphical interface, or supporting a particular important application, or even of making money. It was, plain and simple, just a system for controlling the hardware of a PC.

Windows XP was not designed with quite the same goal. The core of XP is the Windows NT kernel, which is certainly powerful and flexible; however, the effort made to support legacy Windows software, the effort to integrate browser technology into Windows, and the effort to improve the look and feel of Windows have all complicated the core task of the operating system, to the extent that a given machine running XP will use more CPU and RAM when running a particular application than the same machine would under Linux. (Even more so under Vista or 7.) This isn't necessarily a bad thing! Users interested in running legacy software, or enjoying a lavish GUI, appreciate the choices Microsoft has made.

But this is why Microsoft created an entirely different OS for embedded hardware. Windows CE is a real-time operating system designed specifically for small devices. As such, it does make more efficient use of CPU and RAM than Linux does (even those versions of Linux optimized for embedded use and supporting real-time operations). The cost for this, however, is that CE doesn't support the same functionality that NT does. You can't just drop an NT-kernel application into a CE device and watch it run; you'll actually have to spend some time and effort porting it over.

Linux, to a very great extent, provides the same feature set everywhere it runs. So, the same Open Office that runs on a PC version of Linux also runs on the N900; no modification needed. Certainly, you don't get the kind of efficiency and real-time support you'll find on CE, nor all the bells and whistles crammed into XP, but applications written for Linux will work on Linux, pretty much wherever Linux works.

Linux has made the compromises necessary to allow it to run well in multiple environments; the kernel does not provide nearly the level of functionality you'll find in something like Windows XP. Microsoft could put in the time and effort to truly generalize the CE feature set for use with higher-end hardware, but I just don't see it; that would ultimately make it a competitor to the XP/Vista/7 world, which would be bad for their bottom line...

daperl 2011-02-25 14:31
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slackve (Post 955202)
Maybe they're going to make it only for internet explorer site or add a "verify genuine copy" button thingy
We won't be able to post files here any more, because why would we need to?

ericsson 2011-02-25 14:44
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Copernicus (Post 955209)
Warning! What follows is a long opinion piece. I didn't expect I was going to write an essay when I started... :) Anyway, executive summary: Linux is a general-purpose OS, thus very scalable; Windows CE is a specialized-purpose OS, therefore less so.


It is true that, at its heart, Linux is a fairly simplistic concept. Back at the very beginning, Linus Torvalds just wanted to create an operating system for himself to use on his own PC. He had no vision of running a graphical interface, or supporting a particular important application, or even of making money. It was, plain and simple, just a system for controlling the hardware of a PC.

Windows XP was not designed with quite the same goal. The core of XP is the Windows NT kernel, which is certainly powerful and flexible; however, the effort made to support legacy Windows software, the effort to integrate browser technology into Windows, and the effort to improve the look and feel of Windows have all complicated the core task of the operating system, to the extent that a given machine running XP will use more CPU and RAM when running a particular application than the same machine would under Linux. (Even more so under Vista or 7.) This isn't necessarily a bad thing! Users interested in running legacy software, or enjoying a lavish GUI, appreciate the choices Microsoft has made.

But this is why Microsoft created an entirely different OS for embedded hardware. Windows CE is a real-time operating system designed specifically for small devices. As such, it does make more efficient use of CPU and RAM than Linux does (even those versions of Linux optimized for embedded use and supporting real-time operations). The cost for this, however, is that CE doesn't support the same functionality that NT does. You can't just drop an NT-kernel application into a CE device and watch it run; you'll actually have to spend some time and effort porting it over.

Linux, to a very great extent, provides the same feature set everywhere it runs. So, the same Open Office that runs on a PC version of Linux also runs on the N900; no modification needed. Certainly, you don't get the kind of efficiency and real-time support you'll find on CE, nor all the bells and whistles crammed into XP, but applications written for Linux will work on Linux, pretty much wherever Linux works.

Linux has made the compromises necessary to allow it to run well in multiple environments; the kernel does not provide nearly the level of functionality you'll find in something like Windows XP. Microsoft could put in the time and effort to truly generalize the CE feature set for use with higher-end hardware, but I just don't see it; that would ultimately make it a competitor to the XP/Vista/7 world, which would be bad for their bottom line...
Scalable for what exactly? Nokia is a the largest mobile phone manufacturer in he world, Nokia makes mobile phones, lots and lots of mobile phones. Clearly any scaling of that OS is to be done with a somewhat focus on phones. Surely you can shoehorn an old steam engine into a car and achieve great power, but a modern turbo engine would be a much better fit. In fact it is an excellent comparison. WP is a modern engine, fast, compact, reliable. Linux is the old smelly, noisy and inefficient steam engine.

slender 2011-02-25 14:50
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 955221)
Scalable for what exactly? Nokia is a the largest mobile phone manufacturer in he world, Nokia makes mobile phones, lots and lots of mobile phones. Clearly any scaling of that OS is to be done with a somewhat focus on phones. Surely you can shoehorn an old steam engine into a car and achieve great power, but a modern turbo engine would be a much better fit. In fact it is an excellent comparison. WP is a modern engine, fast, compact, reliable. Linux is the old smelly, noisy and inefficient steam engine.
Watson disagrees with you!
http://www.watson.ibm.com/index.shtml

btw.
http://felipec.wordpress.com/2011/02...-linux-scales/

.edit
Probably Google also disagrees with you :)
How about Tivo
Actually most DVR are running linux. Ohhh scary.
Little company TomTom has devices that run on top of linux
Or Garmin

Copernicus 2011-02-25 14:50
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 955221)
Scalable for what exactly? Nokia is a the largest mobile phone manufacturer in he world, Nokia makes mobile phones, lots and lots of mobile phones. Clearly any scaling of that OS is to be done with a somewhat focus on phones.
You may not have noticed, but a device known as the tablet has recently entered the market, to a great deal of fanfare...

In any case, mobile devices are quickly reaching the computing power of desktop PCs. An operating system that can't actually perform everything that a desktop PC OS does will certainly suffer in that environment.

gerbick 2011-02-25 15:04
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 955221)
Clearly any scaling of that OS is to be done with a somewhat focus on phones.
Maemo was built upon tablets initially. Sure, you could argue that the 770, N800 and N810 were basically telephones without GSM radios, however let's be honest... they were tablets.

Symbian doesn't seem like it could scale up to a tablet; however Maemo could scale "down" to a telephone. However, I think the argument about scalability and how it relates to Linux is too full of foolishness for me to even begin - Linux has spanned from embedded objects, to watches to machines that could win at Jeopardy and all points in-between.

ericsson 2011-02-25 15:08
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Copernicus (Post 955227)
In any case, mobile devices are quickly reaching the computing power of desktop PCs. An operating system that can't actually perform everything that a desktop PC OS does will certainly suffer in that environment.
Wrong. A mobile phone will never be able to fully take over for PCs. The success of the iPhone shows this, by focusing on what that form factor is good at.

gerbick 2011-02-25 15:13
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 955238)
Wrong. A mobile phone will never be able to fully take over for PCs. The success of the iPhone shows this, by focusing on what that form factor is good at.
I get what you're saying, and honestly can't argue against it.

But the thing is though... tablets need to be more capable than my phone, but less capable than my PC. In fact, tablets based on PC OS's have historically not done well.

daperl 2011-02-25 15:14
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 955221)
WP is a modern engine, fast, compact, reliable.
And you know this because you've seen the code?

Nice try, troll. Peddle your worthless snake oil opinions on down the road.

It's almost time for the ban hammer!

ericsson 2011-02-25 15:23
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 955235)
Maemo was built upon tablets initially. Sure, you could argue that the 770, N800 and N810 were basically telephones without GSM radios, however let's be honest... they were tablets.

Symbian doesn't seem like it could scale up to a tablet; however Maemo could scale "down" to a telephone. However, I think the argument about scalability and how it relates to Linux is too full of foolishness for me to even begin - Linux has spanned from embedded objects, to watches to machines that could win at Jeopardy and all points in-between.
Again, wrong. Symbian actually scaled "down" from palm sized PC's to phones via Nokia Communicators. What went wrong with Symbian was that it got too messy, and no one alive (literally) being able to do a full clean-up, to modernize it.

But let's be real honest. The only success Linux has had is on Android. The only reason for that success is Googles hard line on cutting off all the bloat. In the embedded world as well as the PC, Linux will work, but is seldom used for anything real. The reason being it is a simplistic bloatware.

Clubberlang 2011-02-25 15:30
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
'cause we know we got such timely updates for the n900 /sarcasm.

wmarone 2011-02-25 15:46
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 955053)
For you, yes. For the largest manufacturer of mobile phones in the world, no.
Many companies have used Linux before on mobile phones, and in devices with even narrower hardware specifications.

Quote:
You are just a bunch of Linux zealots. Linux is nothing but a simplistic/brute force bloated piece of software, with the only real advantage of being simplistic. Works well on high spec HW (but so does Windows XP).
And, I hate to say it, you're a highly ignorant anti-Linux person who has a hard time coming up with sound arguments. People don't just accept your "Linux is bad because of something I can't quite nail down, while everything else is superior" argument.

Quote:
Anyway, tell me what kind of problems Windows Embedded Compact has with scaling up, other than including proper drivers for new HW. Then explain why this is any different for Linux.
Show me where the same Windows core has gone from devices with 1MB of RAM and no MMU to desktops and on up to supercomputers? If you hadn't looked already (and I suspect you haven't) you can flip all sorts of switches when building the kernel to tune it to your hardware, and that goes well beyond just drivers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 955100)
Linux is comparable to Windows 7 (NT) in terms of RT, that is completely off the charts regarding RT but good at running tons of processes where exact timing is no issue, like on a PC.
Wait, is that with all of the (out of kernel) realtime patches that have been applied to it?

Quote:
For mobile phones, running tons of processes has limited advantage, but RT capabilities becomes increasingly important when the HW spec gets lower and simpler.
RT capabilities only matter in the baseband.

Quote:
Nokia is in the need for something that also work well in the sub 200$ range to replace Symbian, and that doesn't suck the life out of the batteries in a couple of hours.
Well, if you screw up your power management yeah you'll burn through batteries. This can happen on any OS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 955221)
Scalable for what exactly?
Effectively anything, really.

Quote:
Clearly any scaling of that OS is to be done with a somewhat focus on phones.
Sure, but just saying "phones" does not give a target.

Quote:
WP is a modern engine, fast, compact, reliable. Linux is the old smelly, noisy and inefficient steam engine.
So you're pro-Windows and anti-Linux now, only via poor analogies? Can you even make a valid argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 955238)
Wrong. A mobile phone will never be able to fully take over for PCs.
Stick it in a dock, add a mouse, keyboard, and monitor. We're getting scary close for the vast majority of users. Or look at Japan, where phone ownership vastly outweighs PC ownership and is the primary computing device for most people.

Quote:
The only success Linux has had is on Android.
Linux has had success on many, many phones, just buried beneath many layers of other code and even harder to access than on Android. Motorola, many Japanese phone makers, numerous television sets and other consumer electronics devices run Linux. Millions of devices, in fact, run Linux. But you'd never know.

Quote:
The only reason for that success is Googles hard line on cutting off all the bloat.
Actually, it's entirely to Google being behind it.

Quote:
In the embedded world as well as the PC, Linux will work, but is seldom used for anything real.
Your ignorance is profound.

Please, ericsson, stop talking about things you obviously have no clue and poor understanding of.

abill_uk 2011-02-25 16:17
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Here we go again wmarone you never fail do you to have a go at someone.... Linux for your information has NEVER been the sole and only language before Maemo... just because "just buried beneath many layers of other code and even harder to access than on Android. Motorola" does not make them Linux mobiles... only the N900 was 100% Linux so ericsson has a valid point ! but you just do not see it duh.

I said it before on this thread and will say it again... it is a popcorn thread that will attract all the wp7 fans and god help anyone else that even trieds to argue with them ha.

wmarone 2011-02-25 16:21
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by abill_uk (Post 955301)
Here we go again wmarone you never fail do you to have a go at someone....
I tend to be skeptical of arguments that boil down to ill defined points of contention.

Quote:
Linux for your information has NEVER been the sole and only language before Maemo...
What?

Quote:
just because "just buried beneath many layers of other code and even harder to access than on Android. Motorola" does not make them Linux mobiles... only the N900 was 100% Linux so ericsson has a valid point ! but you just do not see it duh.
No, he doesn't have a valid point. He's making a stab at Linux as a whole; note the argument about real time and low end systems which is the central point of his argument.

gerbick 2011-02-25 16:23
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 955254)
Again, wrong. Symbian actually scaled "down" from palm sized PC's to phones via Nokia Communicators. What went wrong with Symbian was that it got too messy, and no one alive (literally) being able to do a full clean-up, to modernize it.
Do you mean from the Psion days? That's honestly still nothing more than a PDA. The prior Communicator series, were merely powerful PDA's by today's standards.

Quote:
But let's be real honest. The only success Linux has had is on Android. The only reason for that success is Googles hard line on cutting off all the bloat. In the embedded world as well as the PC, Linux will work, but is seldom used for anything real. The reason being it is a simplistic bloatware.
A lot of cars, phones, and other embedded Linux systems disagree with the above statement.

abill_uk 2011-02-25 16:25
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Well i got to agree with you on one thing only and that is Linux is for sure a very very good language to write phone OS but i am not a Linux geek and never will be but i think the point he was trying to make was simple Linux was not proprietry anywhere but the N900.

Why Nokia have turned their back on Linux fails me completely i have to admit.

gerbick 2011-02-25 16:29
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by abill_uk (Post 955307)
Why Nokia have turned their back on Linux fails me completely i have to admit.
You'd have to admit that Nokia fully didn't embrace Linux until MeeGo.

slender 2011-02-25 16:41
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
What is Linux language?

abill_uk 2011-02-25 16:45
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Very difficult one to answer !.

abill_uk 2011-02-25 16:46
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Only thing i do know about Linux is that it is written in c and c++.

abill_uk 2011-02-25 16:49
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 955313)
You'd have to admit that Nokia fully didn't embrace Linux until MeeGo.
If they fully embraced then why the hell they dropped it like a stone?.

daperl 2011-02-25 16:55
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Word of the Day:

ignorance

Currently being popularized by:

ericcson, abill_uk

If you're ignorant and you wish to make this list, please see previous posts by our current winners for inspiration.

Thank you, and have a great weekend!

abill_uk 2011-02-25 17:04
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by daperl (Post 955343)
Word of the Day:

ignorance

Currently being popularized by:

ericcson, abill_uk

If you're ignorant and you wish to make this list, please see previous posts by our current winners for inspiration.

Thank you, and have a great weekend!
Why dont you just get a life mr know it all and leave people alone !!! we do NOT need people like you on this forum thats for sure but we are unfortunatly stuck with you till you dissapear !!!.

ysss 2011-02-25 17:04
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
http://i56.tinypic.com/103wlcj.jpg

above: abill_uk in action.

daperl 2011-02-25 17:08
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by abill_uk (Post 955347)
Why dont you just get a life mr know it all and leave people alone !!! we do NOT need people like you on this forum thats for sure but we are unfortunatly stuck with you till you dissapear !!!.
You are correct, sir. What we need around here is more people that don't know what Linux is. Oh, wait...

abill_uk 2011-02-25 17:09
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
AND you ysss !!!!!

But do tell me something ysss, WHY are you on here 24/7/12 ???? are you disabled and cannot leave your home????

cfh11 2011-02-25 17:11
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
anyone else notice that the second abill_uk showed up ericsson was nowhere to be found? i have a theory: they are the same person. abill_uk is ericsson when he runs out of meds and whatever little hint of logic that was there goes out the window completely. also grammar and punctuation skills practically vanish. same combative attitude and aversion to facts though. a fascinating case study, really.

cfh11 2011-02-25 17:13
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysss (Post 955348)

above: abill_uk in action.
lol.. the one person in the entire world that can out-crazy gary busey.

ysss 2011-02-25 17:13
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by abill_uk (Post 955355)
AND you ysss !!!!!

But do tell me something ysss, WHY are you on here 24/7/12 ???? are you disabled and cannot leave your home????
What if I am

daperl 2011-02-25 17:13
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by abill_uk (Post 955355)
AND you ysss !!!!!

But do tell me something ysss, WHY are you on here 24/7/12 ???? are you disabled and cannot leave your home????
abill_uk Posts Per Day: 3.59

ysss Posts Per Day: 2.82

abill_uk 2011-02-25 17:13
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfh11 (Post 955356)
anyone else notice that the second abill_uk showed up ericsson was nowhere to be found? i have a theory: they are the same person. abill_uk is ericsson when he runs out of meds and whatever little hint of logic that was there goes out the window completely. also grammar and punctuation skills practically vanish. same combative attitude and aversion to facts though. a fascinating case study, really.
HA all the creeps are appearing all on one thread ... well well well why am i not suprised.

PS i think the admin of this site would know if i was the same person as him....

abill_uk 2011-02-25 17:14
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysss (Post 955359)
What if I am
Respect absolutely !!!.

abill_uk 2011-02-25 17:17
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
This thread should be moved to off topic then we can REALLY go to town and slag eachother off hahaha.

ysss 2011-02-25 17:17
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by abill_uk (Post 955363)
Respect absolutely !!!.
bwahahahahhaa

btw, should I remind you that we're in a forum that revolves around connected (and pocketable) internet tablets? thus most people here are pretty much jacked on to the net 24/7.

we never jack off.

bwahahahahha

abill_uk 2011-02-25 17:21
Re: The future of your Nokia Windows phone
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysss (Post 955366)
bwahahahahhaa

btw, should I remind you that we're in a forum that revolves around connected (and pocketable) internet tablets? thus most people here are pretty much jacked on to the net 24/7.

we never jack off.

bwahahahahha
Well you see... i have actually got a life out side of this forum.... and it is quite an exciting one at that hahaha so really any stupid comments from people just go way over my head lol.


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