Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

The trouble makers have arrived to totally screw up this Poll so it is ALL yours... over to you lot.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

I voted yes although I don't believe Nokia will care about this Poll. It's nice to see how many people still support Maemo. So long Maemo is not dead.
On one side there's a OS with mostly everything I need, improving daily. On the other side a OS, not ready, with the promise of being somehow better, sometime in the future, maybe, for sure.
As a Dev with economic interest or early adopter Geek it's understandable to support Meego. But as a normal User there's no clue waiting for it for the n900.
More support for Meego from the n900 community means less support for Maemo. I want to use my phone(computer with phone..) now.
Some of you may make fun of abill_uk. I'm thankful for his Poll.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

This is a great example of your not understanding your own poll.

The poll vote does not say that Nokia should release the source code.

The poll asks responders what they "want". You seem to assume that what's best is that people get whatever they want. Not necessarily so. You are saying that Nokia should pay no attention to its own interests, it should just obey the masses?

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

...obey the masses? populism? You don't know what's good for you, but we know?
Nokia is not near obeying the masses, but loosing customers. I don't think the numbers of n900 users are very high, but lots say "Nokia never again". Maybe Nokia could gain some credibility this way?

Re: PETITION for Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

This Poll has no time limit and will go on indefinetly so as it gathers pace more and more will vote i hope.

Looking at the figures now as you said is approx 95% for and as it grows we might just see a huge morality boost for the CSSU team and i think they deserve and need it.

It is being said quite often now that Maemo is the favourite os and many doubt the MeeGo os for the N900 becoming reality in the near future.

Work with what we have now is my opinion as it is proven even with flaws, the flaws can be ironed out and who knows what Maemo could become.

MeeGo on the other hand i do see as a future os for future devices more geared hardware wise than the N900 dated hardware, as it is becoming slowly but surely of no use to Meego, mainly the reason i think Maemo should prevail and move forward in development for the N900.

Remember we only have 256 ram and the min spec for MeeGo is 512 mb and the cpu also falls short in spec.

The numbers of votes so far are only based at the moment on maybe 2% of the population of members on this Community so please get your votes in and give some moral boost to the CSSU team.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

The request this petition makes is most audacious, to say the least, and in the unlikely event it works, it would be quite a triumph. On the assumpton that Nokia (I include all Maemo-device partners, as well as Nokia itself, in that word) will not release any PR-type updates, releasing code would allow the community to make improvements.

I believe, however, that a more refined question may yield some results because without more focus and weight, the reponse will always relate to IPR and so-on. Incidentally, much of that page relates to Maemo4, not 5 and doesn't appear to include drivers/3rd party s/w (point in top para noted).

The reqest could be refined by breaking it down into a list of the areas of functionality where source code or system-access is necessary i.e What source should be released. Many items on this list exist as wontfix and open on the Maemo bug site. For each item on the list there needs to be an associated:
.

1. Why source should be released:

   Although the existing licence alteration scheme has not proved very sucessful, while devices are in use (and phone contracts are still current), there is a case for code-release or official updates (cough!). The release of code might be based on one or more of the following reasons (there may be others too):
   
   (a) Fix those parts of the OS (inc. drivers) that prevent the device operating as advertised, reasonbly expected* or that make it in anyway not wholly fit for purpose. If provable, There might be some grounds for consumer-rights action in this area. The graphics driver (I know it's not just Nokia Corp. involved) is one of the most obvious areas where there's a difference b/w advertised and actual performance - there was no mention of frame-dropping for video playback or image-shearing in the press, was there?
   
   (b) Allow the OS to be extended/improved. Probably not really in Nokia's (or ms's) interest to keep old devies alive unless such an extension/improvement addresses something listed in (a) OR shows a proof of concept that can be used (by Nokia etc.) in future devices.
   
   (c) For application s/w development. Again, unless such s/w addressed something listed in (a) or showed proof of concept, which might help Nokia etc., this argument has the least weight (I beleive).
   
   (d) Allow the device to operate to its full potential e.g. formal BT input support or UI improvments to allow direct printing. This might be possible if release of code wouldn't harm sale of future devies or Nokia etc.; it would be an easier decision for those areas only concerning Nokia. Would it be a valid argument to suggest that doing so would promote the sale of non phone Nokia devices (future or existing)?

2. How source should be released:

   Does the _full_ source (even of requested sub-sections) need to be released, or would header files with precomiled (obfuscated if necessary) lib/[binary-type] files be sufficient? (I'm Assuming that interface and implementation can be separated.)
   
   For OS development (fixing problems), clearly the whole source is necessary, not just the interface; if the implementation of a given class/function is completely rewritten, then the existing (closed) version maybe done away with altogether. Again, for application s/w development one only needs to include a well commented header file to make new applications.

3. To whom source should be released:

   From all the people on the "Yes list", I'm sure many do not have s/w in the Maemo repositories (though many may report operations as testers) and whilst being a vocal member of a community is important, for everyone to have access to the source is, I think, not necessary.
   
   Also, as someone mentioned, who would be liable if "improvements" were found to make the device dangerous to use, or a dependecy clash caused 50% of devices to brick?
   
   Who would sign-off any OS fixes/improvements/extensions?
   
   One idea might be: if projects requiring currently unreleased source had to register via the council (or a dev sub-committee, or similar) and developers needed to register with the project to obtain these sections, some trace of what was going where could be made, then perhaps even the most sensitve parts might get released and fixed?

How often has such a list been presented to Nokia? It would be useful to have summaries of these meetings posted in the News and Community sections.

Some parts of Maemo are more sensitive than others so each could be handled differently. And, a lot of Maemo is Debian, so much of what is needed for application s/w development (not OS development) is already open. That which is closed, seems to be mostly drivers. The advantage of breaking it down would be control, the disadvantage would be spending time on an OS which cannot bring in any more revenue. Though, there maybe an obligation to do so if suitable proof can be found.

I think most N900 owners (and probably N8x0 & N770 owners too) believe the(se) device(s) is/are wasted opportunities, where something truly great could have been realised but for some reason Nokia failed to pull it all together. By releasing relevant pieces of source the community (developers, testers and doc'ers) fixes/improvemts could be sought and users would be happy.

On the one hand by providing good customer support, in the form of updates and source releases etc., Nokia would encourage users to fly its flag who would in turn be more likely to buy another Nokia product. While on the other hand, by offering a very short life-cycle Nokia are forcing users to switch devices, which might seem like a good way to get revenue but makes users less likely to care about who made said device; also, not very 'green' as Nokia always proport to being.

I'm sure some will pour scorn over this post, if for for nothing else, for its length. However, this is not a rant, just a discussion from an occasioal coder and current Maemo user.

The device(s) and OS(s) are very good so attempting to smooth the rough edges is, I believe, a worthwhile venture; clearly many others do as well, as shown by the interest in the CSSU and the growth in the number of programmes in the repositories, even since Nokia told some commercial developers to give up on Maemo.

Re: my vote: I'm still on the fence because, as it stands, I don't think it's a viable (and in some ways reasonable) request. Also, I'm not sure a yes/no poll for source-release is the best way to achieve bugs fixes and making Maemo more extensible because there's more to it than that (what, why, how, to whom, etc). But, I do agree with the sentiment: either fix the errors or let us (Maemo community) fix them ourselves.

*reasonably expected: only pertaining to existing features e.g. fix not being able to turn device on while charging.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

But I wanted to waste my time with trolls to have a break from these serious emails I had to write that evening... ;-)

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

There are search engines on the interwebs (e.g. with the search terms "bme" and "meego") to find stuff: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/mee...ry/481466.html

They have not "released" code to Carsten.
My guess is that Carsten probably has an NDA, just like me, so we can access the closed codebase.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

The fact I can vote both... works for me. Yes I want it, but no... I don't want it because honestly? It'll either be half-assed or won't come in a way that we'd consider it useful... like the TI 3D drivers for Maemo 4.1

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

You do patronize. In
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=116 for example you want to speak for the CSSU team by telling what you think they need, and you criticize people that criticize you for obviously having never spoken to the CSSU team to find out about their needs...

You're welcome.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

If I were Nokia I wouldn't open code that makes N900 a Nokia if it meant 42 virgins - and call it a stench or an aroma, but N900 smells of Nokia like ... well, I'll spare you the comparison.

Instead of pushing for the obviously impossible, a better use of this community's time would be to push for documentation that was previously scarce or to push a few capable individuals into the yes-list to add a few things.

It wouldn't violate any individuality of Nokia UI if a few people (or even one) could make small patches to closed source bits to allow interoperability with open software. Especially unofficial, unsupported patches.

I'm just throwing an example here (since I can't code for Linux); Phone loading its face from file, so the look can be configurable. Or a few lines that allows replacing alarm UI.

Since I'm shooting blind here, I don't know if it's not a matter of overwriting a binary to replace that joke that rings when alarms happen. It chokes, it cuts alarm short, it dies if overlapped, etc. It's just a window.

I'm just saying, one MAG on the right list is worth 50 million "yes" and "no" in this poll. Heck, 10 bucks in a donation is probably worth more. Heck, one thank you is likely to be worth more.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Very eloquent and well thought out post. Perhaps we should leave this an an exercise for the OP as he feels so strongly about it.

Abill - would you like to go through the buglist and identify a list of sourcecode items you would like to see released, in order of priority, with reasoned arguments as to why, how and to whom?

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

XP is still supported by MS, but we can try to get NT... Im in :P

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

What if we just made our own HW drivers? Aren't the Nitdroid ones open-source?

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

You need to be asking the Community not me ok.

I started the Poll and the Poll is entirely for the Community so please direct any questions and remarks TO the Community.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

You are our self proclaimed leader so step up to the plate and go through the buglist and identify a list of sourcecode items you would like to see released, in order of priority, with reasoned arguments as to why, how and to whom.
That is actual work you know, something that takes time, effort and might result with something useful, not this dumb to oblivion poll of yours.

Pretty please.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

I started this Poll for the Community and the questions should be direct TO the community as a whole NOT me.

Please edit your flaming remarks !.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Oh...just go away.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Come on kids. No more pissing in here.

EDIT: that includes harassment tags, post report spam, etc.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

*ahem*NT/2000sourceleak*ahem*

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

This is a very good example of how posts should be on this poll instead of starting arguments.

@ Demolition the purpose and thoughts behind this Poll was basically to find out just how many are still interested in Maemo and any idea's such as yours to be put forward.

It is important to any dev that enough people want and need his work therefore in this case the CSSU team will now realise how many want Maemo still to be developed.
After what has happened with Nokia many many i know have as said on this Poll too as well as everywhere on this Community "Nokia never again" or words to that effect.

For me this Poll is a starting point to find out CURRENT interests and what people would like to see and happen.
It is important at this stage to find out statistics as they stand now and THEN make plans for progression if at all any.

I am not and cannot be held responsible for anything posted on this Poll.

Once again i will reiterate that this Poll is for the Community NOT me so please remember this when you post your idea's or comments and please refrain from directing derogatory comments at me.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

One thing is for certain: there is no stopping him; abill will soon be our leader. And I for one welcome our new polling overlords. I'd like to remind him that as a trusted TMO personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground forums.

Relax guys, keep up with your toiling.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Leak was limited, but ReactOS is pretty cool.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

I voted yes because if nokia shareholders want to let go part of their money to organize source release to maintain an old device for some thousands of people who then won't buy the new device, then, sure, I'm in.

I also voted no, because I don't want nokia to rebalance meego/maemo budget for that, and move money from meego DE teem, or even maemo 6 teems, to organize stuff for a dying platform on a single piece of hardware.

Also I don't like "PETITION to the G8 to remove poverty from the world" threads in general, for various reasons that have already been explained here and elsewhere.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

I was most surprised at the warm reponse my last post received. Thank you to those who read and liked my musings.

I believe, there are fixes required to the N900 functionality. In a number of areas it fails to perform as advertised and in some it's not fit for purpose. Is the difference between intention and result enough to take formal action? I don't know. Form what some posters say, it seems similar with previous Maemo devices. Therefore, in the absence of a PR-type update, some source release could remedy the situation.

It appears to me that of these bugs/fixes, a lot to do with 3rd parties thus prove Nokia's poor project management when developing and releasing the N900.

The question being polled is whether each of us wants Nokia to release the whole of Maemo source code.

I still need convincing (one way or the other) because, aside from the reservations I mentioned above, about needing to specify why/how/to whom etc., I don't know what the request is asking for. That may sound unreasonable, given its apparently clear nature. My point is: where does Maemo start and stop? There are items bundled into any OS that are not crucial to its functionality but could still be deemed part of the OS - these won't be released. It needs to be specified what is included in that request, more precisely than 'all code'. There is no mention of which version this "release" relates to. What is Maemo, in terms of this request?

Lastly, there is no mention of documentation with that code in the request. Speaking from personal experience, code is only as good as accompanying comments and instructions. It has already been mentioned that those pieces of code already released are lacking associated paperwork making them mabye not useless but certainly not as useful as they should have been.

Convince me, by answering my questions and settling my uncertainties.

Edit: something I forgot to say: having written various things on ms platforms (native C++, win32 and mfc) - i.e. 'closed' OSs, it was quite easy to write software that interacts with the OS and drivers. Much of the source is in precompiled files but the headers are accessible. Aside from the duff drivers, from my point of view as a learner linux developer, this is what I would like when it comes to source/doc release and why I made the point about releasing headers even if implementation is kept in binary form.

@Abill
We all need to have someone who jumps up and down to make some noise about this problem or that. Thank you for raising a matter, which always falls on completely deaf ears in the "ask the council" thread. When you do so, you need to expect some to rib you for it, others to flatly disagree with either what you say/propose or, just as importantly, how you say it. On that point, I hope you don't think me patronising to impart a little sytle advice: write calmly, try to make your points succincly and remember spoken and written english are not the same. Also, consider typing your messages offline - I use leafpad. The other thing is, don't quote a complete post and if you are responding to all of a long post, break up your reponse.
Again, apologies if that sounds as though I'm talking down to you - I support your intentions of getting people to think and talk about things and want to see you achieve results.

ps. (to all) I'm trying out Opera 11. Anyone find entering text into a <textarea> a bit odd?

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Hello everyone,

We encourage vigorous discussion but please try to be cordial with others. Also, please note that the CSSU, Cordia and closed component issues were addressed in the last council blog posting here -

http://maemo.org/community/council/w...in_april_2011/

I think it is apparent that Council is still supporting Maemo like many of you have asked. It would be best if comments were made in context rather than not.

Also, there is an "Ask the Council" thread. It won't get you immediate answers if that's what you want, but there will be a response such as happened in this most recent example:

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=381

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Count now stands at 461 for and 19 against.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

if you guys want to have a chance of getting your hands on the source code, i suggest you start an organisation, and collect money for the purpose of buying the rights to the source code directly from nokia... thats the only way i see this ever going to happen.. a petition is not going to chance their minds, mostly because petitions dont work on big corporations... money is the true language any corporation, and it is the only drive they will ever have.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

I was originally 100% behind this but after being informed how low the code quality is, I think moving to MeeGo and developing a Maemo UX/UI is the way to go.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

I would love you to explain why and how the code quality is low on Maemo.

Have you been talking with Carsten again ? :p

I said that all wrong.... i meant who told you this?.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

I'm not going to say, but I trust the source.

And here's my full thoughts on this: http://tabulacrypticum.wordpress.com...ng-live-maemo/

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

You don't have to say, we believe you.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

I dont agree with none of that at all no way no how.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

the main part of that you talk about the usb port and you know damm well fine that has been sorted out by yours truly so that gets rid of the biggest elephant.

Do you want me to tell you the rest of my feelings on this or is it best kept to myself right now?.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

As is your right. But it's easy to disagree when you haven't seen the subject first-hand.

No it doesn't. Again: the N900s have shown themselves to be frail. They're not long for this world, and no direct replacements.

If you can do so in a civil and constructive manner, be my guest.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Intel and Nokia are working on MeeGo.... really?.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

re-read the article more carefully.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

OK i want to know everything about this because it has been news for a while now that Nokia and Intel have both given up on MeeGo.

MeeGo i found out a little about tonight from the coding side of and what it is being coded for and i can tell you it does not look like the N900.

Something stinks here and i do not mean you.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

I doubt you'll get to examine the full Maemo source code.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

I have said all along MeeGo is not ready by far since i seen the latest build and to wait wait wait is all we can do.
I was totally shocked by the behaviour erlier on and i still say the same about it all so no change there as my doubts on the hardware issue are the biggest problem.

What you are saying is ok as long as it gets the light of day and gets pulled together BUT you still have the hardware problems on the N900 to get past and the main of it is ram.

I am comfortable to wait and see how MeeGo develops as lets face it we have no choice anyhow but what i do NOT like is this secrecy going on that comes out in dribs and drabs only under argument status occuring.

IF MeeGo OR Maemo makes headway and in good time i promise this to you Randell that i will post every single detail on how to repair the usb port in pictures especially since the device is now reaching out of warranty status for everyone very soon, i held back because of you and the tremendous work you did with Nokia on this because of void cliams due to repair work being done.

I will wait and see where this goes but looking at the Poll it is obvious the N900 is far from dead and buried as far as the users are concerned.