Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Well it does not look like that or I've failed to see your point. You may argue that their main revenue comes mostly from hardware devices. But, even the oldest devices contain software.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

If you produce software just to support the hardware you sell and software that does not work on any other hardware, chances are you aren't a software company.
So as nokia is a hardware manufacturer, it produces as little code as it must to support their hardware. That means use already written code when licence permitts it, buy external OS when you need real support (mass-market), ditch internal OS when it's too bloby and heavy.
That accidentaly also means don't support hardware that you specifically don't produce (other manufacturers) anymore (n900).

So to get closer to my initial point, it may be "not moral" to use open source code to sell closed source software (and still, if the licence let you do so...), but I fail to see anything wrong in using open source code alongside closed source when all you want is providing a functionning platform.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Well by my definition Nokia has so far produced several devices (770, N800, N810, N900 and undisclosed one or two devices) based on the same code base, so I don't think how this applies.

This external software base is very significant in volume, the maemo is not that lightweight (e.g. they did not produce mp3 player running barebone GNU/Linux system). The fate of their propitiatory OS (symbian) is not relevant to maemo story. What is relevant is that the majority of re-used external code is released under GPL and LGPL. Where LGPL is permissive in terms of linking propitiatory software against libraries covered by it, GPL is certainly not.

Irrelevant in my opinion, they have used the GPL software and linked their software against it, so we ask them to contribute back to the community(you know you borrow something from you neighbour, than one day you return the favour) . Please not that the definition of community is not Nokia community, but a greater of GPL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software_Foundation

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

I'm really looking forward to seeeing the results of this official request to Nokia! When will they be available? Is there a deadline?

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Yes and no. Check Nokia's commits to Linux core. Not trivial.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

All you people type to much. Don't you take holidays? :rolleyes:


I said no such thing. I said it is currently not stable enough to replace Maemo. Even the presenter, giving the keynote demo, said as much. It just not ready for a daily use phone, it's a developer platform. Until very shortly before the conference it wasn't even able to make a phone call. (Thus the applause when it did.) Sorry, but that's not screaming "working polished ready for use system" to me.

Asking people to hope that they'll finish and semi-polish a developer platform for a 2 year old device that already has a stable, highly polished system available right now seems kind of ridiculous. If this were a FreeRunner of a Neo1973, maybe that would make sense, since the base system there wasn't even functional.

Again, I'm not saying don't do it. I'm not saying It will "never be good". I'm saying that right now, it's not something a regular person can switch to, and I frankly doubt it will get there given the conditions and time frame it's taken to get to where it's at now.

Is it? Maybe. But even in MeeGo there are many "closed modules" still that have NDA code restrictions and are released as binary blobs. How is that at all different than Maemo?

In the end, I wish the MeeGo project well, but if I had to place a bet one way or the other, the odds are against them. Relying on the platform taking off enough to be anything beyond a developers toy is a pie-in-the-sky dream. Dream it if you like, but I doubt it will ever get close to what we already have.

But let's imagine for a moment you're right. It gets polished up in the next month, solidifies into a rock solid platform, and an EZ-installer is made that flashes the OS onto the N900 while retaining all your data and updating your apps to work in an emulation shell, all whilst playing a cute song. Then what? What does that gain us? Key bits are still closed. Do we get a "plethora of apps"? Form where? Nobody is developing for MeeGo right now, and the few that are are targeting non-ARM devices since the N900 is currently the only ARM based platform. Even if there are companies out there making things in the magical "QT" that crosses everything, the QT compatibility for MeeGo is still pretty poor. (Not to mention the QT "standard" has been shifting more than a trucker driving through Appalachia.)

Again I ask, what's the harm in a renewed ask? Or maybe (as others have suggested) using another channel to ask for key bits the CSSU team needs (like hal_bme_plugin or what not)?

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Because MeeGo has an active lifecycle.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

You consider this pole as a official request? :confused:
Nokia has already described how official request is to be made.:rolleyes:
Many people have requested, it brought some results but not 100%. :eek:

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

For how long? If they release the N9(50), whatever it's called... then what? They're moving on to WP7, with no plans for future MeeGo devices as of yet. Maybe it will get an active cycle for 6 months to a year, then spiral the drain just like Maemo?

And the lifecycle for the N900 support is what? They've toggled from "never gonna happen" to "here's a developer edition" a few times. But once there's a "real" device to work on besides the N900, what then? I'm betting that cycle spirals faster than the one for the new hardware.

Again, I'd love to see it work. I'm just not really clear on why so many people are pinning their hopes on this particular donkey, given how many times we've taken it in the burro from Nokia already... :eek:

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

This is uncertain in future. It depends on the will of a big corporation

I have to argue about this.

You may note that FreeRunnder is not produced any more by the original producer OpenMoko. This however does not mean that the users/community were dumped.
There are 15 distributions, most of them very active, supporting both the FreeRunner and Neo1973.

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions

One of them is Android, with stable 1.5 and ongoing 2.x being actively developed.

In addition there is independent hardware project Neo Freerunner GTA04 with improved hardware, which you can fit inside old shell!

Now that is the uber-geek device!

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

True. But the essential point is: MeeGo is actively supported for future development (by several entities actually), Maemo is not.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

True, it is not easy put real pressure on them at the moment.

Based on how the winds are blowing, Nokia will soon become very hostile. At that point it would be much easier to apply the pressure. :cool:

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

MeeGo != Nokia

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Are all n900 HW pieces open sourced? If that is the case MeeGo may be way to Go. If not it will be stuck very soon when closed sourced bits stop functioning starting from MeeGo X.Y release.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

I didn't say so. I assumed that since an official request was recommended, one would be made. If so, when, and what's the deadline?

I gather that Abil will present the petition on his knees, as in days of old -- that should be formal and official enough.

What is a 90% positive result in this case? The King smiles and the petitioner isn't thrown in the moat?

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

No, and they won't be for many MeeGo devices, either.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

By any other hardware I meant any other hardware than your own, but it's irrelevant.
Speaking about "permissive" is exactly the point. Nokia is not your neighbour, it's a company.
Either it's legal, or it's not. And if any programmer thinks its work shouldn't be used with closed source software at all, it can specify it. If he doesn't, then anyone can. Nokia included.

Plus, as Texrat mentioned, Nokia does contribute. And finally, you cannot "borrow code", open source code is non-rivalrous (and non-excludable) within what its licence permits.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

I liked the part with the moat (filled with cold water maybe, or burning oil), but that assumes that petitioner is plain dumb, and you know what wise people say about assumptions...

Given what texrat has already pointed out, about Nokia (king) being a big contributor to linux kernel, it would be difficult to persuade them(copyleft owners, aka potentially pissed peasants) to act, but that may change very rapidly in future, so they may become very motivated. It happened before, even with the big ones.

There are only two ways to conquer the castle: by surprise or starvation. In either case medieval "off with their heads" sounds tempting. :D

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Hurray, that's 555 votes. That makes, in my experience, about 5-10 people willing to put their money where their mouth is. So, what, 20 bucks a person, that's 100-200 bucks.

A good programmer has in the range of 3-5K a month, I'm going to include less-than-fortunate instances here. So, 4K, divided by 20 days (working), 200 a day?

So this community has the aggregated force to hire a programmer for half a day, most likely.

Unless you want a button moved 3 pixels to the left, this is going nowhere. If you want stuff accomplished, you need to push. Crying in a corner isn't going anywhere. It will definitely not budge Nokia.

So let's get this poll restarted. We'll have No, Yes, and Yes, and I am willing to do something about it. Code, fund, get involved in a meaningful manner (and I don't mean wiki edits). Then we count votes.

That's why we can't have anything nice. Damn the phone app. If developers would be motivated, most closed components would have been rewritten by now. We already have a lot of fixes, new Media Player (or use a better player), better camera (Fcamera or the camera-ui2), modified menus or replacements. As for Maps, even if open it would still have to use Nokia servers.

So Phone will be left behind. Maybe a few others. So what. That's not what kills a platform. Nor an excellent device.

What kills a platform is running out of juice and we're running on vapors.

So what if Maemo was suddenly open right now? We'd get a few fixes, a few updates. Still few to none games, still unpolished interface (we needs designers for that, not OSS), still nowhere near the app base of other OSs, and still we would lose ground at an astonishing pace because even with contributions we will be woefully outdated. Android has a Google V8 behind it, WP has a Microsoft V10, and we would be paddling with homemade cardboard box-sides.

It's not like we have a short to-do list and it's all hung on closed source. We have a to-do list the size of China and MAG is pretty tired.

Yes I know I'm ranting. It just makes my pressure go up seeing how I can't really use my Android replacement to anything nice until I shell out cash to someone and frankly, I'd rather give it to someone here.

For all the effort spent here, get organized. Open up a competition, start gathering pledges, and make the pot go to the winner. Use a small amount, so more people would join. Open a forum for the competition, use threads for voting, announcing winners, gather feedback.

I'll start. If this gets off the ground, I'll add 10 to each contest, next 3 contests for starters. Surely someone else here can spare a ten. We'll get the pot rolling - there has to be someone who wants to help and get a few beers out of it.

Anyone trustworthy here has a premium PayPal so donations can be centralized?

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Which again makes me ask: How is this different? Once MeeGo moves to 2.0 and the API changes for drivers (which will invariably happen) will there be a huge push to update our current 1.0 drivers up to the new version? Will MeeGo be even viable before it jumps said shark? I'm not so sure it will... specifically because, as you pointed out, Nokia != Meego.

I just don't see it happening. I do hope I'm wrong, but at the current speed, I fear the new device will come out and our beloved N900 DE version will come to a screeching halt. And I'm willing to bet shortly after PR1.1 of the new device, some incompatibility will arise that will make the N900 DE not capable of upgrading, no matter how many kings horses and men we have, because of those closed bits.

Being an owner of said paper-weight (I have a GTA03v5, with buzz-fix!) I can tell you that the community was dumped, quite unceremoniously. OpenMoko re-invented the wheel 4 or 5 times, hopping from one nearly completed base to another (OM0*, SHR, FSO, etc). And the community mirrored that fracturing by making it's own versions to the point that there are 15 different flavors, none of which work. Each one has one or more majorly busted bits, and they're all so dissimilar that they can't patch all the working parts together to make one working thing.

Want a fun task? Show me one OS on a GTA03 that can connect to Wifi, hop to another wifi hot spot without rebooting, connect to a bluetooth headset, and then make a standard GSM call with audio routed through the headset. Not ONE version, not even any of the Android versions (there are 3), can do that. My N900 does it regularly several times a day without fail or the need to reboot.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Not _everything_ is OSS but it does at least have the blobs tracking the latest kernel and more importantly, the blobs are sitting in a repo easily available to us. That in itself makes community support easier if and when official support ends.

And we should also remember that the OS itself is entirely open whereas maemo is not. Far more hackable.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Do you actually even know that official support for the N900 has ceased from Nokia?.

The closed components "apparently" have been released so stskeeps tells me to the MeeGo development team working on the N900 version of MeeGo.

MeeGo is not entirely open at all, i really think you need to go read more about this.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

There is no "apparently" about it, maybe if you spared a moment of your valuable time to use Google you would have found this http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1...v7hl/packages/

As for the OS being entirely open, yes it is. The OS is most certainly open, it may not be entirely FOSS (not sure). Some hardware requiring closed drivers has nothing to do with the openness of _the OS_ Perhaps it's you that should be doing the reading.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

You did not even pick up on the sarcasm but never mind eh.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

FWIW (yes, you're talking about MeeGo openness, so I can state this!),

MeeGo.com platform does not in any way rely on closed source binaries.

The Nokia N900 hardware adaptation currently consists of:

* Bluetooth firmware, redistributable, kernel-independent, userland-independent firmware blob (this is fairly typical even on PC)
* WLAN firmware, redistributable, kernel-independent, userland-independent firmware blob (this is fairly typical even on PC)
* BME, redistributable binary blob
* TI OMAP3 SGX drivers, userland, redistributable binary blobs, matches with a kernel side driver that's fairly OK to forward port.
* Misc calibration tools for wlan, redistributable binary blobs, only really depending on a WLAN driver kernel interface
* PulseAudio algorithms for 3GPP compliance, redistributable binary blobs (you won't get good sound without this)
* Kernel, open source, no closed source modules
* Xorg driver for SGX, open source, but links to closed source SGX drivers (PVR2D interface, etc)
* Open source ofono/telephony driver and pulseaudio modules for speech communication with modem
* Misc scripts for startup and setup of N900 bits and pieces, open soure
* Camera firmware, open source (it's really just register poking). Basic camera features work without blobs.
* Battery measurement is done through kernel and open source metering
* Upcoming: blobs for accessing AGPS and almost Maemo5-quality camera usage.

For each of the closed source bits, we're actively exploring opportunities how to 1) build these in the future in case it's needed and 2) how to avoid situations where they cease to work.

As said above, rest of platform is OSS, including applications. You won't easily find sane hardware that doesn't in some way require closed blobs on ARM side. And don't say the Freerunner.

Given that the blobs exist and they are redistributable and usable, it's a better situation than not having them at all.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Well done Carsten you did it again ;) and what would be nice is to get an official update on the N900 MeeGo adaption from you, maybe you should start your own thread on this ?.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Just countering your

With fact instead of speculation :)

(Hey, at least i'm not in the 'reopen' thread!)

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

I was actually being sarcastic Carsten because Nokia peed me off big time releasing some of the closed source to you and not to this community.

I am just wondering... is there a way for YOU to release it to the team on here?. EDIT..... IN FULL !.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

What was sarcastic about it? Perhaps you should resit your English exam before you make statements about how "sarcastic" you are being.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

So, for good measure, let me state how this usually works in business because you really don't seem to get it:

* Code has copyright which generally means you can't copy it without license. You can't technically read source code even if you have it without a proper license for it/without a NDA.
* A person can be contracted to a company and then contribute modifications/code that is then copyrighted to that company. In that case, I'm that kind of person.
* A typical contractor has a NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) and cannot talk about details of the code or publish it.
* The company can release code in various forms, sometimes open source, sometimes closed source, it depends on the licensing.
* There are often very good reasons why things are kept closed source, such as patents, IPR or business reasons.

You basically can't do this kind of work without a contract - it's difficult to do a contract with a loosely-knit community. NDA's are also difficult with community members as there's no reprocussions(sp) in case of breach. How do you sue people who has nothing to loose? :)

Also, the people who sign the contract within the community then would effectively be unable to discuss that work with the rest of the community, which means to a seperated community with some who's previleged and some who's not.. Even I have to publish my work through a Nokia employee.

Basically, it's a slippery slope.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Carsten i was not talking about the official route ! try to read in between the lines, as you said certain things cannot be discussed.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

@ Stskeeps - BTW did you ever try to build SGX xorg driver for n900? The 'open' one which source is in repos. Try it someday when you have some spare time.

Someone here was asking about GPL violations.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

There's no way but the official route. Are you asking me to breach my contract and do criminal activities, opening myself to civil suit for damages and criminal prosecution?

Are you stupid?

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Yes, in fact I sort-of maintain it in MeeGo, and xorg driver is MIT/X11 licensing, so GPL licensing doesn't really apply.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

Yes lets all do illegal things and there will be no consequences whatsoever!

Grow up.

I'll also note for the benefit of the sensible folk that FSF are looking for developers to reverse engineer the SGX driver and get some gallium3d niceness. So far noone has come forward.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

@Stskeeps - Do not have time to dig into licenses now, will do it when I have time. Anyway, will you share the result of your build? I mean was it successful?

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

In addition to that, anyone using anything or distributing anything that was released in illegal manner will be liable to prosecution and suit as well. This is not the way to do it.

Just look at the Windows 2000 source code release that happened some years back. If you even looked at it, you would be not be suitable for touching a lot of code, unable to contribute to ReactOS, etc.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

If memory doesn't fail me, I did a successful build of it for the Beagleboard port, but that was before my harddisk crash so I don't have the binary around.

I've thrown out Scratchbox from my machine, so I can't do it right now.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

MIT and its derivatives are permissive and GPL-compatible. They are allowed to mix with proprietary code and also allowed to mix with GPL code.

Re: PETITION to Nokia to release the full source code of the Maemo OS to this Community.
 

OK, to be clear - there is no way SGX driver to be build in scratchbox using source from repository. There are several header files missing and nowhere to be found(at least legally). Like pvr2d.h and such. The same ones stskeeps is maintaining for DE, just an older version. And what drives me crasy is that it seems there is a SGX driver fork made especially for Nokia, as from year now TI Graphics SDK is free to be downloaded. But it is usless for n900.

@stskeeps - are you allowed to share under which license n900 SGX SDK is distributed, and if you are will you share it(I mean the license)?