Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Almost real time price, bid volumes, order depth and list of latest trades.

http://www.nasdaqomxnordic.com/share...ument=HEX24311

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

People should not read too much into market capitalisation, its just one of many variables to determine the real value of a company.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Finally, I find someone here who can differentiate between market cap and firm value.

Glad to know you.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Maybe you would like to take a look at the google's stock as well?
EDIT:Added the link:http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3AGOOG (Choose the Year till date option.)
Yeah. I mean so. Market share is not the most important factor to judge about the company's value.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Elop is acutally a genius.

A real businessman doesn't sell a single phone once in a while - one by one. He sells the whole company at once. Smart!

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Well, he's not wrong, in the sense that Nokia has hitched their wagon WP. If WP fails, then Nokia does too. So of course Nokia wants it to succeed. Success will mean that other hardware makers will want to use it too.

The best possible result here is that Nokia gets to be just another Microsoft OEM. Hopefully the biggest. They are shooting to be the Dell of phones. Which I guess is better than being bankrupt, but it isn't exactly an exciting future either. They will have to live on small profit margins and pretty much jettison any hope of doing serious R&D.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

He is still working for Microsoft it seems tough...

I still don't get why WP7 is so much better for Nokia than Android would have been.

Why not join the bigger Android community than the without-Nokia-already-dead WP7 community with all this talk about being reduced to an OEM?

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Yep, just like he sold the entire company to Adobe months after he assumed duty as a CEO of Macromedia.

He's a real expert in betraying...I meant selling his company.
http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000...2799.strip.gif

Image source: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1998-06-27/

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Finally an article that states that the worst might be over for NOK shareholders. Some good numbers there.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2741...y?source=yahoo

The author is long NOK, so he either sees the rosy side or puts his money where his mouth is.

Re: CEO of which corporation?
 

I'm afraid to answer...

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

The name of the site is rather ironic :D

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Say what do you think that instead of ecosystem, we use eco$i$tem (especially if we quote Elop) in future?

I dislike to misuse of the term, what about you?

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Here's one vote against dumb spelling.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Here is another: Mee Go load mee shotgun, than mee go hunt some ducks. :D

I will try to stick to the topic in future.

Essential, that guy from Nokia, claims they can survive.
Do you think major stakeholders will buy that?

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Not for the foreseeable future.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

I agree with you "gerbick". As for { "abill_uk"
I still want to know what the 2 wrongs are ! } I offer the following :

I do not know where some of you live but here in the United States, specifically NYC almost no one uses or has a Windows phone and if they do, they are definitely in the minority. Most people here use Apple, Blackberry, Android or Palm (WebOS) phones. As far as saying that "MS and Nokia are too big to fail " Well MS will continue to provide desktop OS's and Xbox gaming software to millions of people worldwide just like before they partnered with Nokia. Nokia on the other hand has more at stake because of all the bad business decisions they have made and continue to make. Honestly in my opinion, I would not buy a Windows phone again , having owned one about four years ago and a couple of different non-phone WinMobile devices prior to that phone. WinMobile has always been awkward as you have to constantly use the task manager to close each application otherwise the device slows to a crawl. In addition MS keeps releasing new versions of the mobile OS and they are not compatible with each other or the devices you have currently, so you are now stuck with an old OS in a very short time frame. I do not believe that just because Nokia is providing the hardware for WinPhone 7 or whatever they call it , is destined for success. The product launch and or collaboration of a WinPhone 7 OS phone by Nokia does not pique my interest at all. And 99 percent of all the people I know and their friends apparently are stuck on these non-windows phones as well. We all will continue to use Windows on our desktops (I also use Linux and BSD) on my home built desktops and store bought laptops and netbooks. But as far as the mobile phone OS majority I see everywhere here in NYC or any other state I go to, it is definitely Apple's iOS, Google's Android, Palm's WebOS, Blacknerry's RIM etc. Enough for now, MS will continue to chug along where as Nokia with WP7, not so sure.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

lol popcorn indeed,

elop is deluded, samsung and HTC are failing with WP7.

they sales come from android.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

RIM and WebOS are local US phenomenons with no value and no future. iOS and Android are world wide, but only Android is a force worth reckoning in broader terms.

Nokia/WP is a ecosystem, a complete one with HW, software, OS, everything. Such a thing will not fail for any of the reasons you people think. From day one, when the first "new" Nokia phone comes out, the ecosystem is already complete, and it will be great.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

If we have a conspiracy, then the whole board must be on it and pretty much prior to the hiring of Elop (since it was their doing).

This would be a staggering amount of corruption (in which Nokia would most certainly not deserve anything but to go down in flames), and it seems very unlikely that Microsoft would instigate such a thing. Not because of morals, but because of the risk of detection this would bring with it. Microsoft is not a desperate company...

No matter how shocked I was about the news when Elop adopted WP7, I can't say that it doesn't make a certain amount of sense. There seems to be a lot of misinformation and outdated views on Microsoft as a company, so this is what I have come to understand so far:


How can it be about the ecosystem, when Symbian has more market share and apps than WP7?

I see this sentiment expressed all the time, but it also the easiest to respond to. The fact is, that Symbian is stagnating and won't cut it as a modern smartphone platform. In other words, Symbian is dying. This was already established before Elop came on board, which is why MeeGo was supposed to be Symbian's successor.

Thus, any kind of argument that compares WP7 to Symbian goes straight out the window. Nokia needed something new.

Comparing WP7 to MeeGo is obviously a different matter. Now we are talking a mature development environment, 20.000 apps in record time, and tight integration with very popular services like XBox Live, against a system that is not even out there. I honestly can't fault Elop's logic on this one.

Of course there is an argument to be made for the migration path from Symbian + Qt to MeeGo, but there is also an argument for the wealth of existing .NET developers.


But isn't WP7 even less mature than Maemo/MeeGo?

I have seen this stated as a fact a couple of times, but it's complete nonsense. Maemo 5 wasn't even in the same ballpark yet with its half-baked UI and legacy issues. Could we have reached similar maturity if we had continuously developed Maemo 5 instead of basically starting from scratch again? Possibly, but it wasn't Elop who made that decision.

The bottom line is, that Harmattan is not a more mature Maemo 5, it's a new development that is just as significant a change as WP7 was for Windows Mobile. Only that Harmattan is not out yet and didn't have a year to mature. WP7 on the other hand has been surprisingly polished and well received. While the first release lacked some significant features, these features are now being delivered before Harmattan is even out, with a bunch of new features to spare.


Is Windows Phone bad, because hardly anybody uses it?

I really dislike this hypocritical sentiment being expressed in a Linux related forum... We should know better than anybody that market share is not always equal to quality. To assess the actual quality of Windows Phone 7, you should: 1) Try it yourself 2) Check customer satisfaction among those who own it and maybe 3) Listen to reviews. "Look at marketshare" really isn't an appropriate gauge, even more so when we are talking about a newcomer.


Why not Android then?

You can argue about this until you are blue in the face, but ultimately this is a judgement call the CEO has to make. There are no obvious answers. Android may be more successful now, but we have already established that this is not a gauge of quality. The market is being swamped with customised Android phones, and it still has big issues with fragmentation and whatnot. Not to mention that it's really not as exciting as the iPhone, WP7, or even Harmattan. To be honest, I would have been even more pissed if we had been dumped in favour of Android. WP7 has a lot going for it, whereas Android mainly has going for it that it's already there and spreads like wildfire.

In this case, I believe that the fact that WP7 is not that widespread yet is actually an advantage for Nokia, because this means that Nokia can become the defining hardware platform for Windows Phone devices. It's not quite as cool as successfully running your own software, but at least it's something.


There is a lot more to say about the subject, but for the time being I probably made enough enemies. :p

And yes, I'm still excited about the upcoming Harmattan device. It's going to be awesome, that's also a fact.

I still have some small hope that Harmattan/MeeGo/WhateverWeAreAllowedToCallIt will be able to establish itself as a fourth player, but it's going to be very very tough. We definitely won't make it, if we keep deluding ourselves and hide from inconvenient truths behind a smokescreen of ideology and conspiracy theories.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Sorry for asking a noob question, but what is a sales warning in the first place? I am just curious. :D

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

@kanishou good points here, except you might not have taken into consideration that WP7 is a standalone platform with little backward compatibility with Windows Mobiles, and that Microsoft has already announced the launch Windows 8 on ARM, which can run native (recompile) Windows applications which WP7 platform is also incompatible with.

As Elop was a senior executive of Microsoft, he should have well aware of the new mobile strategy with Windows 8/ARM. Even in the very rare circumstance he didn't know, Elop's decision on buying WP7 is way after the announcement Windows 8/ARM, he shouldn't have ignored it.

It's so obviously that he's well aware of the present situation and future prospect of WP7 and still strike the deal with Microsoft. Everything Elop does would not make any sense if he has no hidden agenda with Microsoft.

You might not believe the board would approve Elop's action. How would it sound like if the board actually support Elop? I cannot go into too much detail on it as it'd be rather off-topic in a tech board.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

That is not true, there is no new mobile strategy. Windows 8 is for tablets, it does not encroach on Windows Phone at all. If anything, it's going to strengthen it through better synergy.

WP7 is not backwards compatible obviously, but it uses familiar APIs. This situation really isn't significantly different from Qt on MeeGo. It is a familiar API, but the idea to just run old (desktop) applications unmodified on a phone is an unrealistic pipe dream.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

It's a financial warning issued before officially scheduled disclosure of their financial results, so as to let the market to digest the news in hope to minimize the impact on the stock price.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

I agree that this seems unlikely.

And I think this is where Nokia went wrong. They kept changing their strategy. Putting the polish on Maemo, getting to step 5 of 5, and adding in Qt as a migration strategy would have made some sense.

Yeah, it would not have been as technically clean to have two different programming API's (Qt and GTK), but time was a-wasting. Starting over again with Meego at such a late date was a very bad decison, IMO.

If the work that went into Meego had gone instead into finishing Maemo, then Maemo could very well have been a competitive platform. Yes, Qt would not have been as integrated and they may not have had as smooth a transition from Symbian, but there are an awful lot of Linux developers out there too.

They shot for perfect instead of accepting good enough and trying to make it perfect over time. When that failed, Nokia had no good choices left. They were either going to become an Android OEM or a WP OEM. They had lost their chance to be a leader.

I am sad about the way things turned out because Maemo was so close to what I, personally, wanted. I am not all that interested in "media delivery platforms", I want a more PC-like device that I control and decide what to install and when and how. Maemo seemed to be headed in that direction.

But there is no enthusiasm, none at all, from the carriers for that kind of device. Nor from Apple, Google or MS. For all of them the device is just a way to extract value from consumers through an exclusive "app store" or ads or whatever. So they have little interest in making their systems truly open in the ways that the PC was.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Microsoft has not really defined the market positioning of Windows 8/ARM, but they've already rejected the possibility of WP7 being used on tablet. In fact, the incentive to build mobile device on Windows 8/ARM is too high as it can run native Windows applications by porting them. Microsoft has already demonstrated in last CES how Windows 8/ARM is being able to run native Microsoft Office (ARM-compiled).

As you can imagine, there's a greater synergy for Microsoft to run a unified platform on PC and mobile devices.

Of course, those applications need to be modified (ported) to run, but the incentive to do so is very high.

Interestingly, the architecture of Windows 8 is having highest modularity than its predecessors, such that it's possible to strip everything outside its core to run Windows 8 in native terminal mode.

In this regard, it's not impossible to build a new presentation layer for mobile devices of smaller scale than tablets.

Though it'd not happen this year, but since the market incentive, the technical feasibility and even the synergy is all presented in Windows8/ARM, the idea to run legacy applications on a phone is not unrealistic dream.

Note that I'm not here to defend any platform, I just want to say I think WP7 is pretty doomed after Windows 8/ARM. ;)

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

It is, because even if you get it to work, the applications are still going to be unusable on a device the size of the phone.

This is also where the whole "write once, run everywhere" idea falls apart.

People are not so desperate for applications on their mobile devices that they would put up with awful UIs.

Even on tablets, being able to run Windows desktop applications isn't really all that exciting. It will still be primarily measured on how many applications will support the tablet UI.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Say...do you think 800x480 pixels is too small to run any desktop application?

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Having run things like OpenOffice and JEdit on my N900, I would say the issue is not the pixels but the physical size. It is hard to click on tiny buttons, and hard to see tiny text.

It works, and it is useful to be able to do that, but probably only us geeky types would do it.

On a tablet, though, with a 7" or larger screen size, it would probably work fine even if the resolution remained the same.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Like bob is saying, it's not the resolution that matters but the physical screen size. 4 inch is definitely too small to run any desktop application.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

By 'porting' it doesn't just mean recompilation, it also means adapting the UI to the platform. There's also accessibility options to customize during runtime and compilation. (You know how much I hate to defend for Windows applications :D)

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

You must have thought of direct running of desktop apps without changing the font and control sizes.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

This is exactly what I was trying to say, every release is incompatible with a prior device most of the time. You then have to purchase a new phone or have to pay to upgrade the OS to a newer version if it is compatible.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

I also am happy with my N900 even though I miss Navigation and certain other features. I too wanted a PC-like device for when I was out and about. Of course if I have to do anything that is typing intensive or using an application that might have buttons or icons too small for my N900, I would just wait to get home and use my desktop or laptop for such tasks. I know that the screen is small but I want a device for my pocket which serves me well and not some big 7 or 10 inch tablet that does not fit in my jeans pocket. I like to travel light.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Well what a lousy few quarters for Nokia. Well it's all gone Pete TONG, really ...they need to quickly re focus on a new Chief Exec Officer. QUICK the amount of doom unleashed is Microelopocalyptic in size & aftershocks are fore ordained

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

A couple of very interesting articles I didn't read at the time about the Manchurian CEO (they date to March 2011):

http://semiaccurate.com/2011/03/14/m...hout-a-chance/
http://semiaccurate.com/2011/03/15/m...s-off-with-ip/

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Holy sh**! That says it all. No further discussion required...
As sad as the content is, it is also sad I didn't see that as clearly as I do now after reading those excellenct aricles.

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

After those two articles, I think it's time to repost my video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ub2vnmxI8

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

This Thread belongs in Off Topic with my thread what got moved there.
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...45#post1028645

Re: Nokia shares dive after sales warning
 

Not really, this fits fine under General. But thanks for the heads up; maybe I'll merge them.

EDIT: I don't see a reason to merge, but I did put the Apple-Nokia thread back under general where it should be.