Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

If I could give woody14619 1000+ thanks I would - he has summed up the maemo vs meego debate quite succintly and with patience.

At the end of the day Maemo works at an end user level NOW while Meego MAY (and most likely never) work at an end user level.

So end users here want effort directed towards fixes that will have results, as opposed to a hobby exercise a few are engaging in for the fun of it.

Again - too bad there is not a 1000+ thanks button - thanks woody14619 !

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Same here, many thanks woody14619

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I agree, we need good constructive criticism, instead of the normal flame bait.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I have been both enlightened and dismayed by the virulent anti-user rhetoric posted in this thread. I didn't know that developers hated all of us, even the ones who aren't demanding and aren't know-nothings. I don't think you can prosper in a world that depends on cooperation between users and developers, and this site is a golden example of the good things that users and developers working together can achieve. Good luck in establishing an empire without users.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I have to apologise to those users that do infact make developers lives worth while when contributing in their own free time to Maemo/MeeGo. I was very broad in expressing myself when I said it and it really is a minority, but it's not a small minority. If it was just the odd one or two users that pissed us off, it wouldn't be an issue, but it must be in the 10s of users, which is evident from those devs that have left because of it.

@geneven, I don't include you in that statement. ;)

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

No, the users want devices with proper vendor HW and UX implementation, until that all this MeeGo does/doesn't work talk is pointless (it's like saying Android doesn't work at an end-user level because you can't even make phone calls with NITdroid).

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Tell me, when the Allies took governance of German territories after WW2, was that permanent? When you elect a governor (governance is the act of governing), are they elected or appointed to that position for life? In most democratic countries, when a group or individual is given governance over something, it's term often at the whim of the resource owner, and is by definition temporary.

Can you show me even a single example of where governance of a system was given to a group of people for all time, and not rescinded?


That's all fine and good. The problem is MeeGo is not GPL, at least not the parts we're talking about. The drivers and bobbles we're talking about here are under NDA, and are NOT under GPL nor any other open license. That's what this whole discussion is about! Were the drivers and misc bits open-source and GPL, I'd be all behind this in a second. It's not, and probably never will be.


That's great. Tell me, how do you use a browser, email and IM when your wifi driver won't stay connected to an APN? Again, we were talking about the base OS here, not every app ever made for it. And despite Microsofts efforts to try to make it so, a web browser is not part of an OS.


Yes and no... I was comparing it to the model as it exists now. Tell me, do you think the governance council here (freshly elected) has any voice with Nokia now? Many past council members have said they barely had a voice when it was the big thing. I'd be surprised if they can get someone at Nokia to answer an email for them now...


How so? If it's open source, completely open, one can make a complete copy of it and retain it for their own use. The original presenter can in fact go away, or shut down the service/site promoting it. But if others have valid complete copies, how then can it be stopped?

The "resource" I'm talking about in this case IS source. Once that's out, there's little one can do to "govern" it, outside of garnering respect from the community and using political sway to guide it. (Linus T. being a pure example of that.) The fact that we're talking about governance means we're talking about a closed resource, virtual or tangible, that has limited availability. Until that availability status changes, that resource, and it's governance, can be revoked by the "owner" at will.

MeeGo has several closed bits still, which is what we're talking about here. Nobody is talking about "governance" of Mozilla on MeeGo. It's a moot point, as it's completely open. The governance is around how the closed parts are managed, and the general structure of the system as a whole. Both of which could be pulled back in at will by the collective corporations that hold the key bits to make it work on their devices.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

This is the best debate here in a looong time. :D

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

Everything is temporary, MeeGo's governing body is the Linux Foundation.

I'll let you know when the universe ends.

When were we discussing parts? Regardless, you're right, the N900 and in fact any handset for the foreseeable future will have closed parts, deal with it.

I disagree with pretty much all of that, anyway, I've never had problems with the WiFi on my N900 running MeeGo. So it's probably to do with router & wifi combination. Anyway, it's obviously being worked on, why is it such a major deal for you?

...

At least we have more upto date components, that are freely distributable.

And now back on to source, Maemo is less than 50% open, MeeGo is > 90% open. Also, with having open governance, we have the ability to shape the future of MeeGo, this is something we've never had outside of a consumer-vendor relationship with Maemo in the past.

And now you've gone in a full circle. But yes, you're right, no one is talking about Mozilla here, so why bring it up?

I think you're very confused, the MeeGo project doesn't define what is open or closed in a hardware adaptation. You could run a _completely_ free open (as in source) MeeGo based OS on a device where all drivers for the hardware are open. But good luck finding one.

The closed drivers in MeeGo <i>for the N900</i> are re-distributable binary blobs, we were lucky we were given that! And at least now they are up-to-date and have had most of the issues fixed. Good luck back porting it to your closed Maemo platform and having what we now have in "MeeGo N900 Community Edition".

For a competition of "Who's more open?" and your reasons for not backing MeeGo, well, I find your attitude (as well as others') extremely hypocritical.

Re: Should MeeGo developers continue to publish info on this forum for maemo users (wrt Nokia device support)?
 

I assume you're aware of what happened on 2/11. Maemo.org faces larger challenges than its communications with Nokia, including our ever-evolving relationship with MeeGo. Thank you for your good comments in this thread.

Please review governance issues at the Council Blog:
http://maemo.org/community/council/

and ask questions directly of council in this thread:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=41451