Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

And that's just it. Some people focus so much on the dream of making that IF reality that they take immediate umbrage at something like Skype. I think that anger is seriously misdirected, and it's why I responded to the rebuttals in the first place. Thank you, Jerome and TA-t3, for making the salient points much better than I did.

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

I have to say that I see Skype in two lights -- one is as an internet-era company that sees the technology has arrived* to break the grip of the oligarchic telcos. (Who block advances for that very reason.)

The other is as described, the owned-by-a-big-company, using closed software, proprietary and not necessarily a good citizen.

I might lean towards the former interpretation most of the time. I don't think it's a bad thing at all that someone is wielding kryptonite against the telco's.

But my point isn't "Yea! Skype!" My point is that the usefulness of Skype's large user base is way more than Gizmo's or Google Talk's. And if I could use my Verizon FiOS router to make Gizmo calls, I would but I can't. [Hm-m. Points made earlier in this thread are very interesting in that regard.]

A phone tied to a desktop computer (even if just for dialing and answering) or to a not-really-that portable laptop makes ALL voip frustrating, at the ease-of-use level compared to any cordless or cell phone.

So voip on N800 that starts out with a large potential base of people to call at no charge and, of course, includes every phone at way-better-than-cellphone rates -- well, that's something to cheer about, in my book.

If my wife is making a call on our house phone, and I want to join a conference call while making a sandwich and then heading outside to eat it -- Skype looks like it will give me that alternative, which I didn't have before. Gizmo on the conference call number I use was a dismal bomb.

Hey, a cheap second line and third line with the same walkaround convenience of any other phone -- why shouldn't we be cheered by that?

Roger

__________
* Heck, in 1979 I saw Microsoft in the same light, with IBM and other big-computer companies playing the heavies. Does anyone here remember IBM intentionally hobbled its PCjr so as not to threaten its more-expensive models? Yes, a technology company that felt it didn't need to offer ever-improving capabilities, because it controlled its markets so effectively.

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

"Should", uh. Unfortunately, the law can only do so much and powerfull companies with clever lawyers usually find a way around it. Let's come back to the example from France I cited: orange is not purposely blocking SIP. They are offering an extra service that most customers choose. That the consequence is that most users will not be computer litterate enough to be able to run another SIP service on this router, is just a technical consequence. And if you are computer litterate enough, you can actually run another SIP service by reconfiguring the firewall.

But most people won't do that and this is a number game.

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

Jerome has a valid point: despite laws and regulations, companies can, do and will use passive-aggressive and FUD tactics to create or reinforce open source hurdles, tacitly or overtly. In the end the method of resistance doesn't matter to the average consumer who neither knows nor cares about the technical details or that solutions could be within their grasp with a little education. They just want a no-hassle service... hence the seduction of Skype.

Oh crap... I just made the Lemming argument. :eek: :D

Re: Just 1 reason to use Skype, but that is enough.
 

That's right, and is one of the reason that skype is a network administrator nightmare. I know that.


As already pointed out, we are not talking about a privately run hotspot here, for which correct netiquette would be the least you can do.

Neither are we talking about GSM networks, who have the problem that a GSM voice call uses typically 12 Kb/s, whereas SIP uses at least 45 Kb/s because of network overhead. Not that I have great sympathy for cell phone operators, but still...

We are talking about the fine line between assigning network ressources correctly and plain anticompetitive practices.

May I tell you that I would be willing to pay extra for a hotspot where SIP would work? But there aren't any left in most places where tourist are likely to roam. The few times where I could find one (usually privately owned internet cafes) I used that (and tried not to abuse things, not calling hours and not leaving gizmo active to block the SIP ports).


Actually, because those hotspots use NAT, only one client can use SIP at a time. The first to come blocks the port.


No, they explicitly block SIP. I could chat and use instant messages. I never use file sharing, so I don't know about that, maybe they also block it.


But I think that you are missing the point. The point is about Nokia. With the 770 / N800, Nokia built a device to be used as a SIP phone. 2 years after, SIP won't work in many place. For them it makes perfect sense to team up with Skype.

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

This is not a lemming argument at all. It is about using what works with the least effort and least cost, not doing what everybody else is doing.

I think that using what works is a perfectly valid position.

As to resistance, expect Skype to be blocked before long. It has already happened in some middle west countries (can't remember which one, I think Koweit or Dubai) who want to protect their local telco revenues for international calls. Although another thing which they don't like is that Skype encrypts your phone calls.

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

The gizmo user base is bigger than you may think. Using sipbroker, you can actually call (for free, using a direct i.p. link) about every SIP phone on the planet. Except telcos like orange which refuse sipbroker exchange, of course.

Gizmo uses the SIP protocol, but on non-standard ports. The most likely reason why it would not work is:
-that your router does not release incoming ports (is not "plug and play" compatible), in which case you'll have to configure the ports manually.
-that your router blocks udp traffic.

From the gizmo manual:

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

Using VPN solves many of the 'blocking' problems. The VPN user base is so large that hopefully there'll be massive wide-spread outrage if/when telcos or ISPs start disrupting VPN.

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

I was facetiously referring to another post. ;)

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

Maybe you'd understand the anger if consider my situation regarding VoIP. With my current (SIP-based) setup, I have

• a call-in number for free (SkypeIn: no local numbers available for my country; if they were or if I chose a neighboring country: €57,50/year (!!))
• € 0,0179/min for national landline calls, flatrates available (Skype: € 0,020, flatrates available)
• several providers to choose from for any kind of call so for each call I can use the cheapest (Skype: well, Skype. They dictate the price.)
• Client with video support for GNU/Linux (Skype: no video support)

I dont have technical difficulties with SIP, it just works (and I've never been "blocked" although my ISP is a telco). It's much cheaper than Skype would ever be. It offers more technically. I use it daily. So there's no dream of making IF reality. It is reality. (While Skype wouldnt even offer a call-in number.)

So what makes me angry then? That Skype, like a dangerous black hole in space, increases its gravity by adding more users who in turn increase the gravity and attract more users who ... etc. That they charge more and offer less and can get away with it only because they're big - really big. And, above all, that I cannot reach Skype users by VoIP although I can reach customers of most every other VoIP service.

The momentum of the Skype-hype forces me to either join (which I refuse to do, because this would add some more gravity to the black hole) or to explain over and over again to each of my friends that, yes, they can reach me by VoIP, but they please have to go and download, install, register... etc., even though they already have VoIP. They do this (most of them) because they know I'm quirky and can deal with it. Still it would be so much easier if one could simply call people without having to worry which service they use. (I can call anyone via landline without having to register with his provider, cant I?) If Skype would only open a gateway to SIP users, all would be fine. They could still use whatever protocol they want within their network.

Thats where the anger comes from, apart from all other things I've stated before about Skype users not being good net citizens and such, which is less emotional and doesn't cause anger - not yet ;). The anger, btw, is mainly directed not at Skype (they want to maximize their profits, thats all), but at those who add mass to the black hole.

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

You win again. :p

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

You dont bring me flowers anymore ... :mad:



:D

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

I have some pretty nightshade...

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

Well... I should say that I can understand your concerns.

If I can be of any help: I only know of ONE person who uses skype and many more who use SIP...

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

I don't really know anyone using SIP, although I know of a couple of folks that have tried it. Most use Skype. In other words, people's experiences will be different.

That been said, I agree totally with benny1967 about wishing for SIP interoperability support in Skype.

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

nice to know 100million people that use skype, unfortunately even though I have a very large network of friends, I only know 1 person that uses it, so I have about 10,000 reasons not to use it :-D unless of course Nokia wants to send me a bluetooth headset that actuallyworks with the n800 and a free calling plan to regular phones...

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

I find that using a wired headset works fine, though some people seem to find it technologically humiliating -- not cool enough.

I don't find $30 a year that oppressive, especially considering, for example, that many companies charge that much a month for wireless access at places such as Starbucks, or, if you don't want a month's worth, you can get it for $10 a day. Even Vonage costs about that much a month.

I think that all computer users everywhere have to realize that it costs money for some things.

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

BTW: How exactly would we push for "net neutrality" in places like Russia, where I lived for a few years, or China?

Also, true net neutrality seems to me to be hard to come by. When I lived in Russia, because of the nature of the building I was in, I had to use a dial-up. (Eventually I got a faster connection, but to do so I had to have a radio transmitter installed on top of my building, pay a $500 installation fee, and pay connection fees of approximately $100 a week if I carefully limited my connection and stayed away from Internet broadcasting.) So things were abysmally slow, though most Russians in big cities now have fairly easy access to faster networks. But we can't exactly legislate that users of Dial-up have as quick access as everyone else. And I have heard that scientists are working on a faster Internet, one that only scientists can use now. Shall we mandate that anyone can used the science Internet?

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

[net neutrality]
The way I see it it isn't as much about giving everybody equal bandwidth, for me the issue is along the following lines: Imagine you travel from hotel to hotel, and this hotel chain provides free wi-fi (or even pay wi-fi, but except for the more expensive US hotels it seems to be free most places now). You use Skype, or possibly Gizmo to communicate with your fellow humans.

Then one day the wi-fi operations in this hotel chain is bought out by a company that is also in the business of selling voip phone kits. The first thing they do is to block Gizmo and Skype. And oh, they sell email accounts to ("sign up for your account at shocksmock.com"!), so they also block access to gmail.com and yahoo. And so on. That's what seems to be happening certain places, to a bigger or lesser degree. This is something that must be stopped, and _now_, or it's too late.

Or you have a choice of 1 or 2 ISPs that will connect your home to the Internet, but lo and behold they both want to sell you their own VoIP so they too block Gizmo (they're not competent enough to block Skype, fortunately.. ;)). What are you to do?

I know a big telecom in India is trying to block Skype, and one of the larger ones in China (but not the one operating around Beijing, the last time I was there). Both do this because they're in the business of selling phone landlines. Tmobile appeared to be blocking access to my ssl-secured imap server (in a hotel where I had to buy access), at least that was the only hotel (I visited many the last few weeks) where this was a problem.

There's another kind of net neutrality that's up in the news these days, where telecoms want Google and other popular sites to pay lots of money to the telcos. This is also important stuff, although not of direct consequence to us end-users, at least right away. (The blocking described above is quite immediate!) But that to will kill us somewhen in the future, when only the big and rich information providers can get access to a full-bandwidth pipe, and the small ones can't. Then only the rich ones will be left, say goodbye to popular but poor blog sites, for example. I suspect that even some of the rich ones will help fight this though, so for now as a layman I'll keep fighting the port blocking.. :cool:

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

That number completely exaggerated. I have a few test accounts for skype as it takes only seconds to get them. They are all inactive, but count to the "100 million".

Last time I checked there were about 8 Million online users at Skype. Certainly impressive, but far away from the 100 mio.

Re: 100 million reasons to use Skype
 

There's apparently been something like 100 million downloads at least (actually that number is quite old -- from when there used to be about 2.5 million online users at any one time). If that translates to 100 million registered users these days, only Skype knows. I can easily believe that there must be at least four or five times as many registered users as there are online users. I know some people that are online only for a few days at the time now and then, and even at work where we actively use Skype there are only about 10% online as of this moment (holidays etc., but even when everybody's here there's about 1/2 - 2/3 online at the same time). That the number of online users just keep growing tells much I think.

make that 220 million reasons...
 

reading the nytimes today about eBay's financial results...

"...the Internet phone service Skype, which eBay acquired in 2005 for more than $2.6 billion, continues to contribute relatively little. Skype brought in only $90 million during the quarter, though its user base grew 94 percent from last year’s second quarter and now totals 220 million registered users..."