maemo.org - Talk - [Council] Council_Update-July

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Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011

@abill - May I ask you to write and maintain wiki page which sums up current situation and further steps and tracks the progress i.e. something like:

1. Binaries - waiting someone from the council to contact nokia
2. CSSU - waitng for stable release
.
.
.

Now the information is spread all over this and other threads, making things much harder. And also there could be deadlines there.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by misterc (Post 1064487)

abill,

this isn't only about a todo list.
this is a community of ppl doing whatever they do for free.
you may fire an employee if he doesn't do what he is asked to do a number of times, but not in an open source community.
nobody ever said that open source was the easiest way to develop from an organisational point of view.
talking of LF...
but even so, maybe the way NOKIA has set up Maemo.org is the best way to go. or was, as long as they were actively supporting it with regular releases of "closed source stuff" that is.

living with the uncertainty of how long this is going to continue to be possible respectively moving to a situation where Maemo wouldn't depend on those "regular release" is stressful and maybe the real challenge @ hand...

EDIT: as to the 0 & 1s... binary is only of limited use because

release they are build/compiled for

except reverse engineer the logic, hardly anything can be done with them from a dev point of view

Maybe stskeeps could throw some light on the possible release of the code that the cssu very need, maybe there has been some changes and could be possible for this to happen?.

I am not exactly the best person to ask him as me and him did have our dissagreements about this.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by abill_uk (Post 1064485)

Are you aware that stskeeps was given all the closed binaries for the N900 from Nokia ?.

Why do you think it's only 'stskeeps'?. According to http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/HW_Adaptation_team :

Quote:

This hardware adaptation team maintains the port of MeeGo for the N900. Due to the use of closed components in the hardware adaptation, this team cannot run fully in the open. However, it will strive to minimize the non-openness in its work related to those components and the number of those components. Closed components will be maintained exclusively by employees and subcontractors of Nokia.

From where I sit it just seems that Nokia is actively investing in making it possible to have a sustainable MeeGo port and deliver working, both open and closed source redistributable bits for N900 so people can work on a open system without loosing hardware functionality.

What's bad about that?

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011

Very good idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freemangordon (Post 1064489)

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneel (Post 1064456)

Why in gods name isn't this guy banned? Would it be so bad? NO REALLY?

Good people are wasting, time, effort, brain cells, nerves(in general, energy that can be used to better this community) to explain basic concepts to this nincompoop.

You don't see forest gumps working for NASA, COME ON!

Actually, especialy lately, you're seeing almost nobody working for NASA anymore. I see parallels here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneel (Post 1064488)

Are you aware that you are wasting precious oxygen that can be used more productively elsewhere, like in putting rain forests on fire?

Are you aware that Stskeeps is under NDA, like he told YOU many times before?

I also see this... which might be relevant to his point. And MAN does it make a sad laugh to read:
http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed...sed_components

Quote:

Originally Posted by freemangordon (Post 1064489)

Last I checked, bugtracker was already being used to make a bunch of requests to open things up and the Maemo wiki itself already lists a bunch of the closed components as well as reasons for open-sourcing and procedures for these requests:
http://wiki.maemo.org/Open_developme...hange_requests

Just some light reading--maybe it'll help with ideas, too. Mind you, I'm sure we've already gone through this before and they were probably denied--irony, considering the reasons for open-sourcing they gave us.

Just the same, I like your idea. Can we have a page for that on Maemo.org's wiki? It would seem like the right central place for it.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by tekki (Post 1064493)

Why do you think it's only 'stskeeps'?. According to http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/HW_Adaptation_team :

From where I sit it just seems that Nokia is actively investing in making it possible to have a sustainable MeeGo port and deliver working, both open and closed source redistributable bits for N900 so people can work on a open system without loosing hardware functionality.

What's bad about that?

Here is the differences between MeeGo and Maemo.

For whatever reasons the code was given freely for the MeeGo project but not for the Maemo progression by this organisation.

Now we got to find out a way for it's release to this community or Maemo dies it is as simple as that.

Maemo.... rememeber is NOT MeeGo.

Get http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/HW_Adaptation_team channelled through to this community and you have success.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011

Case in point, for Maemo...

https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9314

Relicensing reasons:

1. Fixing a bug: Positive, Might help fixing BME bugs
(https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6206)
2. Nurturing application development: none that I can see, except for
hardware hacks.
3. Spread of Maemo driven technologies to other platforms: Negative
4. Community maintenance: Positive, may help community maintence
5. Better architecture: Positive, userland process that covers a very
important component in the hardware interface

One or more projects: Mer, MeeGo, Gentoo, maybe even Maemo itself.

OK, so, conclusion:

To say it in a gentle way, BME is a can of worms. I will recommend against
reverse engineering it as this is not your grandfather's simple charging
algorithms and there is severe risk of blowing up things. There's a bunch of
patents and other things involved as well. While Nokia and Maemo may be happy
allow you to shoot yourself in the foot metaphorically, it may not be happy to
help injuring yourself physically :)

However, let us look at this in a practical way. The biggest issue currently
for all non-Maemo systems is redistributability of a very core component, the
charging and checks which without most OS'es actually would risk driving
battery below sane limits. I don't think this should be open source but I do
think we should be able to integrate it into our systems in a sane manner.

If there's bugs in BME, report them and let's see what we can do about them.
It's a critical enough component that we might be able to get bug fixing
support for the older devices too.

I'm proposing the following:

Priority MEDIUM since it's not a blocker, but I propose placing BME under a
license that allows binary redistribution and having that as goal. It's up for
discussion though if there's better ideas, keeping all the above in mind.

Just as an example... it was decided: we were protected from ourselves by Nokia from Nokia's own code (not a component manufacturer's). Now that the N900 has hit its end-of-life and Nokia is clearly no longer supporting or even responsible for anything anymore... we were left with the status of being denied and STILL dependent on the hope that bug reports will yield fixes and improvement from Nokia. Incredible. You can't even blame Texas Instruments or anyone else for this. Is there any way the Council can communicate to Nokia and cite these examples from the Wiki that I listed in my previous posts as the reasons why we would like them to finally, once and for all, just let Maemo go and open it up, for crying out loud?

The other work is important too (hosting repositories, etc.) but this one's a fight that has spanned YEARS and I'm not sure that anything else will matter without opening up as much of Maemo as possible (understanding that there probably will still be some that CAN'T be opened that doesn't fall into Nokia's permission to open).

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by danramos (Post 1064495)

Actually, especialy lately, you're seeing almost nobody working for NASA anymore. I see parallels here.

I also see this... which might be relevant to his point. And MAN does it make a sad laugh to read:
http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed...sed_components

Last I checked, bugtracker was already being used to make a bunch of requests to open things up and the Maemo wiki itself already lists a bunch of the closed components as well as reasons for open-sourcing and procedures for these requests:
http://wiki.maemo.org/Open_developme...hange_requests

Just some light reading--maybe it'll help with ideas, too. Mind you, I'm sure we've already gone through this before and they were probably denied--irony, considering the reasons for open-sourcing they gave us.

Just the same, I like your idea. Can we have a page for that on Maemo.org's wiki? It would seem like the right central place for it.

Problem is we HAVE been through this many times on this community and it has got nobody and everybody no where because it goes around in circles.

I had a full blown argument with stskeeps over all this and the very reason i think a route other than everything talked about to date is found.

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011

As i see it, what freemangordon asked abill_uk to help out with is not yet covered anywhere.

So abill_uk, what do you say?

Quote:

Originally Posted by freemangordon (Post 1064489)

Quote:

Originally Posted by danramos (Post 1064495)

Re: [Council] Council_Update-July_2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daneel (Post 1064510)

As i see it, what freemangordon asked abill_uk to help out with is not yet covered anywhere.

So abill_uk, what do you say?

I will say NOTHING to you untill you delete all your stupid posts .... understand ?????.